Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!

[Ferris Bueller]

I think it’s cruel to preach a False Gospel That can send people to hell.

Yes, you were cruel to him that way, too.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You will have to find another fish grail hunter. The one you are trying to catch already got caught up in that misery and escaped it. You can’t get into the sheep pen without going through the gate and that gate is trust. I will never again try to get there any other way, no matter HOW badly I want to be good.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You bad mouth me for talking about GOD doing the changing naturally and then you say “GOD was successful in CHANGING ME...” you contradict yourself, methinks.

If you had better reading comprehension skills you'd know that what I'm challenging is how, you say, God changes you. This is why I think you only have a text book relationship with God, not actual experience. I'm not saying you're not saved. I'm saying you don't seem to have a lot of hands-on experience with the matters you want to teach about.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You will have to find another fish grail hunter. The one you are trying to catch already got caught up in that misery and escaped it. You can’t get into the sheep pen without going through the gate and that gate is trust. I will never again try to get there any other way, no matter HOW badly I want to be good.

I think John 10 is about shepherds not coming in through the gate. I will make John 10 my Bible reading today to freshen up on it.

 

[BarneyFife]

It's really frustrating to me that there's so much truth coming from both sides of the argument, and I want to -like- so many of the posts but I can't -like- posts that really seem to contain thinly-veiled insults. Terms like "hyper-grace theology," "legalist," "Judaizer," "the OSAS crowd," etc. seem somehow to me to spoil what otherwise might be a profitable discussion. Some of these terms seem okay at a glance but I think they become buzz words that offend after a while. Oh, well, I guess it's my problem.

 

[Addy]

Terms like "hyper-grace theology," "legalist," "Judaizer," "the OSAS crowd," etc. seem somehow to me to spoil what otherwise might be a profitable discussion.

Sorry Barny... I had to look... LOL

That is the problem with this discussion in particular... Is that blanket statments are being made... trailer loads of accusations are being made... and no progress is being made in the direction of healthy conversation...
You have two sides here.... the side that says Christianity means.... DO GOOD and BE GOOD at all costs... It's all about BEHAVIOUR.
Then you have the side that states Christianity means.... RESTING in the promises of God... in scriptures like... HE promises to finish within us what HE has begun... which is a good work. Right off the bat... those who believe this are accused of DOING NOTHING... and yet DOING EVERYTHING ( that is sinful ).

These two sides of OSAS and those who believe in the loss of salvation....will NEVER come together... there will NEVER be unity... because the thought pattern on the issue is EAST and WEST.

These discussions are no more productive than the Catholic ones.... ( my little opinion )... Since I have three people on ignore... this is not much of a conversation... All I end up reading are your words ... Tongs words... and BB's words... so I don't get to see the opposing posts.

I figure that is a compromise... LOL.... Have a wonderful day Barny... I wish I could have expressed better WHY this debate grieves me so.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Please get your Terminology straight....” Falling from Grace” has a very specific meaning....it ain’t Sinning or entering unbelief.

Hebrews 12:15-17

15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God, and that no root of bitterness springs up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears.
​

Now what were you saying about falling from grace not meaning "Sinning or entering unbelief"?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Blood Bought 1953 , I don't teach a works gospel. I teach Romans 4:5 AND James 2:24. The problem is, you do not know what James 2:24 means and so you think he, and I, teach a works gospel. This is the crux of your problem. You do not believe James. You do not believe James because you do not understand what James is teaching.

 

[BarneyFife]

Hebrews 12:15-17

15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God, and that no root of bitterness springs up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears.
​

Now what were you saying about falling from grace not meaning "Sinning or entering unbelief"?

"See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God, and that no root of bitterness springs up to cause trouble and defile many."--How could that apply to an unbeliever? @marks ? @Blood Bought 1953 ?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Please get your Terminology straight....” Falling from Grace” has a very specific meaning....it ain’t Sinning or entering unbelief.....it’s Adding works to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace .....

This is a little twisted up because falling from the good news of by grace through trust IS unbelief, although it’s not easy for a man to see that’s what has happened at first. The last part is very true though - when we fall from grace, we do add works. Ferris’ sticking point is a very specific mistake men make, and that is to set aside the very trust they need to get to where they so desperately want to go, which is that be good do good.

You have to condemn and tear a building down before you can build a new one. But men desperately want to try to make the first one habitable, so they try and try. They work on following all of the instructions because they are convinced they are doing what their boss wants. And it can never work. They have to wear themselves out before they can see the building needs to be condemned and they can’t fix it by following any amount of instructions. A sulking and peevish and morose state usually follows because they tried so hard and God doesn’t honor their hard work.

The only way to get to the be good do good that isn’t a total farce and illusion is to wait in patient trust. And for some of us (myself included), the only way we get to that patient trust is the misery of many years of futility.

 

[BarneyFife]

I've heard it said that Martin Luther was so zealous for Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4 that he claimed the book of James was not part of Scripture.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think John 10 is about shepherds not coming in through the gate. I will make John 10 my Bible reading today to freshen up on it.

sheep are allowed in. They go through the gate. They will not go through the gate in any way but to trust. If anyone says there is any other way in, or says the way in is be good do good, they themselves have not gone in through the necessary gate.

 

[BarneyFife]

This is a little twisted up because falling from the good news of by grace through trust IS unbelief, although it’s not easy for a man to see that’s what has happened at first. The last part is very true though - when we fall from grace, we do add works. Ferris’ sticking point is a very specific mistake men make, and that is to set aside the very trust they need to get to where they so desperately want to go, which is that be good do good.

You have to condemn and tear a building down before you can build a new one. But men desperately want to try to make the first one habitable, so they try and try. They work on following all of the instructions because they are convinced they are doing what their boss wants. And it can never work. They have to wear themselves out before they can see the building needs to be condemned and they can’t fix it by following any amount of instructions. A sulking and peevish and morose state usually follows because they tried so hard and God doesn’t honor their hard work.

The only way to get to the be good do good that isn’t a total farce and illusion is to wait in patient trust. And for some of us (myself included), the only way we get to that patient trust is the misery of many years of futility.

How do you think both waiting in patient trust and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling achieve any congruence? Do you think this question is worth asking?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

sheep are allowed in. They go through the gate. They will not go through the gate in any way but to trust. If anyone says there is any other way in, or says the way in is be good do good, they themselves have not gone in through the necessary gate.

I need to…rephrase this somewhat…because I went in through the gate then went back out and…tried to get back in another way (which sounds like a dog returning to its vomit) but the Holy Spirit did not abandon me. He went with me. In all the years of misery and futility He was there still. Oh lol, I can’t believe I can laugh at it but I got a picture in my head of a child escaping her parents in Walmart, with the parents running around trying to corral her as she knocks down displays and wreaks havoc…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How do you think both waiting in patient trust and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling achieve any congruence? Do you think this question is worth asking?

Yes, I think it’s a good question. It wasn’t strictly linear with me. I began with fear and trembling, then…lost that fear, then regained it again. I think…when I realized the sheer magnitude of my dependence, the fear returned. When I truly saw myself, the fear returned. When I truly saw others but did not truly see myself, there was no fear.

 

[Tong2020]

Pontius Pilate asked Christ, what is truth. I think that is where you are at with your Christian understanding.
Within the four Gospels and the entirety of the New Testament the message of being good and doing good permeates the scriptures. As well as the punishment of not being good and even not doing good. Should I assume that you have not read the parable of the Sheep and the goats...which gives an outline of doing good and the punishment for not.
The scriptures are full of verses that tell us to be good.
The scriptures are full of verses that tell us to do good for one another.
The scriptures are full of verses that tell us to obey Christ.
The scriptures are full of verses that warn about sins.
The scriptures are full of verses that warn of the punishment for sinning.

Whom do you think must be told to be good?

Whom do you think must be told to do good to another?

Whom do you think must be told to obey Jesus Christ?

Whom do you think must be warned about sins?

Whom do you think must be warned of the punishment of sinning?

Tong
R4221

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I've heard it said that Martin Luther was so zealous for Hebrews 10:38 and Habakkuk 2:4 that he claimed the book of James was not part of Scripture.

A (private) claim that he later abandoned, I think.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Whom do you think must be told to be good?

Whom do you think must be told to do good to another?

Whom do you think must be told to obey Jesus Christ?

Whom do you think must be warned about sins?

Whom do you think must be warned of the punishment of sinning?

Tong
R4221

Going out on a limb here.......all of humanity, saved and unsaved alike?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How can you believe in Christ and not do what He says?

That’s what I used to think too. I accused and severely castigated myself every day for all my murders and resentments. I got up every morning and set about trying to finally have a day where I could get rid of my putridness. I ended each day in tears of failure.

I lived that way for many years. Then I returned to trusting God and turned away from that miserable hamster wheel.

cease all striving and know that I am God.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Whom do you think must be told to be good?

Whom do you think must be told to do good to another?

Whom do you think must be told to obey Jesus Christ?

Whom do you think must be warned about sins?

Whom do you think must be warned of the punishment of sinning?

Going out on a limb here.......all of humanity, saved and unsaved alike?

<<<Whom do you think must be told to be good?>>>

The bad or the not good people.

<<<Whom do you think must be told to do good to another?>>>

The people who do not do good to others.

<<<Whom do you think must be told to obey Jesus Christ?>>>

The people who profess and claim to have Jesus Christ as their Lord or Master, who do not obey.

<<<Whom do you think must be warned about sins?>>>

The people who knows not about sins.

<<<Whom do you think must be warned of the punishment of sinning?>>>

The people who practice sin.


@Grailhunter said and I quote:

“The scriptures are full of verses that tell us to be good.
The scriptures are full of verses that tell us to do good for one another.
The scriptures are full of verses that tell us to obey Christ.
The scriptures are full of verses that warn about sins.
The scriptures are full of verses that warn of the punishment for sinning.”

If one looks at all my answers to the questions I raised, would you say those scriptures @Grailhunter was referring to, are the people whom the Father had given to Jesus Christ to be raised at the last day unto eternal life, who were foreknown, called, justified, and glorified, who understood and believed the gospel, who believes God and have faith in Jesus Christ, and have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?

Tong
R4222