Dispensational problems

[Timtofly]

And Christ also said "this generation shall not pass."

And by 70AD... that generation he was speaking to still had not passed. They are all well past dead today, much less in the future

That generation had past. That was the generation prior to Paul. Paul lived for over 60 years, and while martyred had lived a normal life span. But Jesus was addressing Paul's elders, the generation prior to Paul. Even the one prior to Jesus' generation, that religious group of leaders. Even if Jesus was talking about His generation it would be between Paul's and those He was addressing. Jesus would not have been talking to toddlers and that generation. That is if you were looking at the generation Jesus was addressing.

Jesus said the generation of the blooming of the fig tree. Claiming that Israel declared nation hood in the first century, is not a given. They lost the Civil War that would have been proof of their overthrow of the Ronan Empire from their land. If you do declare Israel a kingdom and nation recognized by Rome, that already happened with Herod and the dynasty started in 37BC to 4BC, still the generation prior to Jesus. So those who were 20 in 37BC would still be alive and 50 years old in 30AD. 60 in 40AD. 70 in 50AD. 80 in 60AD. Pushing 90 in 70AD. It is plausible that a few 90 year olds were still alive in 70AD. But this is still putting the same burden of proof some today declare solved (1948 or 1967), but in a romanticized view of the last and first centuries when Christ lived.

Was Jesus convinced that Israel was a nation, when He was shown a coin, and declared, "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars. But unto God that which is God's". If Jesus was declaring Israel as a Sovereign Nation, it seems some of the Sanhedrin would have been in favor of that, but they seemed more threatened by Jesus, than accepting Jesus acknowledging their sovereign control of Israel. Later the Sanhedrin claimed, "We have no king, but Ceasar." So did they or did they not declare their own independence and fulfilled the prophecy of the fig tree blooming? Was that prior to even the birth of Jesus?

 

[Iconoclast]

No I didn't. I denied that the clouds rolled up like a scroll and that the stars have fallen from heaven. Those things obviously haven't happened yet.
Have a good day.

Isa34:4 is very clear.
You champion what you call literal interpretation.
The judgment happened....so you need to account for the language.
These symbols spoke of a literal change of governing authority...not the literal heavens dissolved and rolled up like a scroll.
You might not like it,nevertheless it is true.

 

[teamventure]

Isa34:4 is very clear.
You champion what you call literal interpretation.
The judgment happened....so you need to account for the language.
These symbols spoke of a literal change of governing authority...not the literal heavens dissolved and rolled up like a scroll.
You might not like it,nevertheless it is true.

You'll take it back when the clouds roll up like a scroll.

 

[teamventure]

I Agree 100%

"The Preterist Motto" If It Dosent Fit 70AD Fulfillment, Change It Through Symbolic Allegory

Preterist claim the second coming of Jesus Christ isn't literally seen below, that takes the cake!

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Eschatology is so strange through the lense of preterism, I still don't know what they believe about a literal return of Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

Eschatology is so strange through the lense of preterism, I still don't know what they believe about a literal return of Christ.

They believe it is figurative. That solves all their problems. Why people would believe absurdities is still a wonder.

 

[Enoch111]

Was Jesus convinced that Israel was a nation, when He was shown a coin, and declared, "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars.

Jesus was not only convinced that Israel was a nation, but He was also convinced that He was the King/Messiah of Israel. That is why He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey just before His crucifixion. And even Pilate recognized this.

But He had not come to earth to oust the Romans at that time, so He allowed for the fact of Roman rule over Palestine. He knew He would be crucified by the Romans at the instigation of the Jewish religious leaders. But what you have quoted has a different import. Christians are to pay their fair share of taxes, but they are to render to God what is due to God -- worship and obedience.

 

[Curtis]

1. Contrary to the dispensationalists’ claim that their system is the result of a “plain interpretation” (Charles Ryrie) of Scripture, it is a relatively new innovation in Church history, having emerged only around 1830, and was wholly unknown to Christian scholars for the first eighteen hundred years of the Christian era.

That’s absolutely false.

The early church was solidly premil for 300 years.

 

[Curtis]

3. Contrary to the dispensationalists’ attempt to link its history to that of early premillennial Church Fathers, those ancient premillennialists held positions that are fundamentally out of accord with the very foundational principles of dispensationalism, foundations which Ryrie calls “the linchpin of dispensationalism”, such as (1) a distinction between the Church and Israel (i.e., the Church is true Israel, “the true Israelitic race” (Justin Martyr) and (2) that “Judaism … has now come to an end” (Justin Martyr).

I have many scholarly sources that say the exact opposite, including secular sources with no doctrinal bones to pick, such as the encyclopedia Brittanica.

The following is 1/5 of a copyright article, with the link following:

The Early Church Fathers were almost exclusively premillennialists and taught an Eschatological Gospel of Both Comings of Jesus. Consider the following testimony from the Fathers. The Epistle of Barnabus, written late first century/early second century and regarded as equal to Scripture by Origen, denotes the Creation Week as a pattern for human history—one day equals one thousand years—six thousand years of history and the Sabbath rest on the seventh day equates to the Millennium (The Epistle of Barnabus 15:4-5). Papias, an early second century Bishop and disciple of John the Apostle, was recorded by Eusebius (the Early Church historian) to have believed that “there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth” (Fragments of Papias VI). Justin Martyr also stated that he was taught his premillennial beliefs from John the Apostle and cited Isaiah 65:17-25, Luke 20:35-36 and Revelation 20:4-6 as references for the Millennium and Psalm 90:4 to support the one day as one thousand years belief (Falls 1965:277).

Theophilus, a second century Bishop of Antioch, spoke of a millennial state which is “intermediate between earth and heaven” (Daley Hope 2003:24). Both Melito, a second century Bishop of Sardis, and Hegesippus maintained a chiliastic position (Remains of the Second and Third Centuries: Melito the Philosopher, Hegesippus, 1 ANF 8:755, 763). The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles addresses the Apostasy, the Rapture of the Saints, the antichrist, the Tribulation, and the Second Advent, drawing on scriptures from Matthew 24; John 5:25; Acts 1:2; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; and Revelation 1:7; 19:11 (The Fathers of the Church, The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles:183-4). Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John the Apostle, was a definite premillennarian. Irenaeus was also the first to detail prophetic events after the writing of the New Testament


http://web.oru.edu/current_students.../DrHebert/Dissertation/2.2 Church Fathers.pdf

And this from liberty university agrees the early church was premil:

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1053&context=pretrib_arch

 

[Curtis]

3. Contrary to the dispensationalists’ attempt to link its history to that of early premillennial Church Fathers, those ancient premillennialists held positions that are fundamentally out of accord with the very foundational principles of dispensationalism, foundations which Ryrie calls “the linchpin of dispensationalism”, such as (1) a distinction between the Church and Israel (i.e., the Church is true Israel, “the true Israelitic race” (Justin Martyr) and (2) that “Judaism … has now come to an end” (Justin Martyr).

Encyclopedia Brittanica, a secular source:

Brittanica:


eschatology - The early church


The early church

During the first 100 years of Christian history, the church taught some form of millenarianism, or chiliasm (from the Greek word for “1,000”), the belief that the Parousiawould bring about a 1,000-year kingdom of fellowship, justice, peace, and abundance here on earth. The coincidence of occasional episodes of millennial exultation and persecution (e.g., about AD 200) suggests the existence of a relationship between apocalyptic expectations and imperial persecutions. Certainly, Revelation viewed martyrdom and millennial promises as two aspects of the same eschatological resolution. But apocalyptic zeal waned because the End never came and the pressure of persecution was intermittent. Moreover, in the aftermath of apocalyptic outbreaks, more responsible and well-connected members of the church pursued a policy of accommodation, insisting that Christians were not hostile to Rome and downplaying both the apocalyptic and millennial dimensions of their tradition. Christian missionaries converted large numbers of Roman citizens, and worldly success and the failure of apocalyptic expectation reduced Christian antagonism toward the empire.

 

[Curtis]

You don’t need history to prove premil - just the Bible:

The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach a literal return and unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on, and from, the throne of David in Jerusalem.


In Acts 2 Jesus literally ascends bodily and visibly from Mount Olive, and the angel said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him leave - meaning His literal return bodily and visibly back to Mount Olive.


In Zechariah 14:5 Jesus returns to Mount Olive with all the saints with Him - where He then remains, and the nations such as Egypt come into the gates of Jerusalem to worship Jesus, Zechariah14:16-19, who will be literally and bodily sitting on the throne of David, forever.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the THRONE of his father David:


Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the THRONE of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall beblessed, and the THRONE of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.


Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”


In Revelation 21, The New Jerusalem which is above, descends to earth to old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it with men forever, and Jesus says this about that city in Revelation 3:12:


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


It’s Literal fact in scripture that there will be a unending literal and physical reign of Christ on the earth, and not just for a thousand years.


Jesus is currently sitting in heaven at the father’s right hand UNTIL the time is right to return to earth:


Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David.The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psa 110:2 The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule IN THE MIDST of your enemies!


He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5, given earlier, where He will rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David, which is established forever:


1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall beblessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.


And we shall reign and rule with Jesus in His kingdom, on the earth:


Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


The millennium period isn’t a temporary reign of Jesus - it’s the period where Satan is bound for a thousand years, so all of creation, including the angels, gets to see the contrast between the world being ran by Satan as it’s god and ruler for 4,000 years, compared with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of Iron for a thousand years - then Satan is loosed for short time, and thrown into the lake of fire.


Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Zephaniah also describes Jesus ruling on the earth in Jerusalem:


Zep 3:14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!

Zep 3:15 The LORD has taken away the judgments against you; he has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall never again fear evil.

Zep 3:16 On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: “Fear not, O Zion; let not your hands grow weak.

Zep 3:17 The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.


There is no reason whatsoever to deny that the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation 20 is literal - from the OT to the NT, it is literal fact that He will return physically to earth and rule from the throne of David.

Maranatha

 

[Truth7t7]

I have many scholarly sources that say the exact opposite, including secular sources with no doctrinal bones to pick, such as the encyclopedia Brittanica.

The following is 1/5 of a copyright article, with the link following:

The Early Church Fathers were almost exclusively premillennialists and taught an Eschatological Gospel of Both Comings of Jesus. Consider the following testimony from the Fathers. The Epistle of Barnabus, written late first century/early second century and regarded as equal to Scripture by Origen, denotes the Creation Week as a pattern for human history—one day equals one thousand years—six thousand years of history and the Sabbath rest on the seventh day equates to the Millennium (The Epistle of Barnabus 15:4-5). Papias, an early second century Bishop and disciple of John the Apostle, was recorded by Eusebius (the Early Church historian) to have believed that “there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth” (Fragments of Papias VI). Justin Martyr also stated that he was taught his premillennial beliefs from John the Apostle and cited Isaiah 65:17-25, Luke 20:35-36 and Revelation 20:4-6 as references for the Millennium and Psalm 90:4 to support the one day as one thousand years belief (Falls 1965:277).

Theophilus, a second century Bishop of Antioch, spoke of a millennial state which is “intermediate between earth and heaven” (Daley Hope 2003:24). Both Melito, a second century Bishop of Sardis, and Hegesippus maintained a chiliastic position (Remains of the Second and Third Centuries: Melito the Philosopher, Hegesippus, 1 ANF 8:755, 763). The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles addresses the Apostasy, the Rapture of the Saints, the antichrist, the Tribulation, and the Second Advent, drawing on scriptures from Matthew 24; John 5:25; Acts 1:2; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; and Revelation 1:7; 19:11 (The Fathers of the Church, The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles:183-4). Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John the Apostle, was a definite premillennarian. Irenaeus was also the first to detail prophetic events after the writing of the New Testament


http://web.oru.edu/current_students/class_pages/grtheo/mmankins/DrHebert/Dissertation/2.2 Church Fathers.pdf

And this from liberty university agrees the early church was premil:

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1053&context=pretrib_arch

Early Church Father Justin Martyr 100-165AD Associated the (Thousand Years) with the (Eternal) New Heaven and Earth after the resurrection, as he quotes Isaiah 65 in Relationship to this

Any claim he saw a mortal Kingdom on this earth is a fairy tale

Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Chapters80-81

Chapter 80. The opinion of Justin with regard to the reign of a thousand years. Several Catholics reject it

"But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."

Chapter 81. He endeavours to prove this opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse
Justin: For Isaiah spoke thus concerning this space of a thousand years:

For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, says the Lord.

 

[Zao is life]

The flaws is that according to this 490 days, to rebuild Jerusalem, Jerusalem will have to be destroyed first, then rebuilt in 49 days, it will have a moat, it will be destroyed by a flood.

Also how Can Christ come to earth at any point of these 490 days, if the Second Coming destroys earth before the last 7 days, when this "bad stuff" happens?

Daniel still has Christ on earth as both Messiah and Prince. Obviously in this future 490 days, there is no Messiah, only a Prince. It is like preterism, but putting all "the eggs" in a future time zone instead of the first century.


The 70th week is Christ the Lord on this earth. If Christ and Lord were not on earth in the first century, then the gap is still the fulness of the Gentiles. If Christ was Lord on earth in the first century, then no Second Coming, but the gap is still fulness of the Gentiles. If Christ was cut off in the first century, no gap in the life of Christ, still a very long 70th week. The gap still being the fulness of the Gentiles.

Any one denying a gap, is only denying, yep, the fulness of the Gentiles. Guess most think themselves spiritual Jews, so who cares about them Gentiles, no?

I'm not a Preterist in my understanding of the Revelation, but I also don't believe in a "fullness of the Gentiles" gap in Daniel's 70th week. IMO the gap is 40 years between the end of the 70th week when Stephen was martyred, and A.D 70. The temple that the man of sin and son of perdition will seat himself up in is the church, IMO.

It's not as though Jerusalem will be on a planet in another galaxy when the Lord returns (the bodies of the two witnesses will lie in a street in Jerusalem), but IMO that doesn't mean that Daniel's 70th week has a "fullness of the Gentiles gap".

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not a Preterist in my understanding of the Revelation, but I also don't believe in a "fullness of the Gentiles" gap in Daniel's 70th week. IMO the gap is 40 years between the end of the 70th week when Stephen was martyred, and A.D 70. The temple that the man of sin and son of perdition will seat himself up in is the church, IMO.

It's not as though Jerusalem will be on a planet in another galaxy when the Lord returns (the bodies of the two witnesses will lie in a street in Jerusalem), but IMO that doesn't mean that Daniel's 70th week has a "fullness of the Gentiles gap".

Scripture strongly suggest another temple in Jerusalem, with renewed animal sacrifice, in abomination to the Lords sacrifice on calvary

Isaiah 66:4 & 2 Thessalonians 2:11 Yes 2 places in the KJV the word "Delusion" is mentioned,both associated with a temple

Isaiah 66:1-4KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[Curtis]

31. Despite the dispensationalists’ strong commitment to the “plain interpretation” of Scripture (Charles Ryrie) and its dependence on Daniel’s Seventy Weeks as “of major importance to premillennialism” (John Walvoord), they have to insert into the otherwise chronological progress of the singular period of “Seventy Weeks” (Dan 9:24) a gap in order to make their system work; and that gap is already four times longer than the whole Seventy Weeks (490 year) period.

My exposition of the scriptures I posted yesterday, proving the Bible proves the literal return of Jesus to set up and rule His kingdom from Jerusalem on David’s throne, didn’t mention Daniels 70th week at all.

 

[Curtis]

49. Contrary to dispensationalism’s claim that Christ sincerely offered “the covenanted kingdom to Israel” as a political reality in literal fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies (J. D. Pentecost), the Gospels tell us that when his Jewish followers were “intending to come and take Him by force, to make Him king” that he “withdrew” from them (John 6:15), and that he stated that “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm” (John 18:36).

It wasn’t then, it was spiritual then, but will be physical at His second coming,

Jesus at the last supper, when His spiritual kingdom was already here, He told them He won’t drink wine again until His kingdom was set up.

Even the thief on the cross knew Messiah would come into His physical kingdom, as did all the Jews, and at His ascension, Peter, who knew His spiritual kingdom was already among them, asked Jesus when He would set up His kingdom, and Jesus replied that it wasn’t appropriate for Peter to know when that time will be.

Thus you’ve been refuted.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Iconoclast]

You'll take it back when the clouds roll up like a scroll.

It is said to have happened 580 years before the cross.
You have no answer.

 

[Curtis]

It is said to have happened 580 years before the cross.
You have no answer.

Yeah, and every mountain was jarred out of place, and every island too, and mens hearts failed then out off fear of the seas and waves roaring, and the signs in the heavens, a mountain from space fell and killed one third of all sea life, and the seas turned blood red, 125 lb hail stones fell, and the time of tribulation worse than ever was and ever will be, (thus worse than WW2 with 60 million dead) all happened, and no one noticed - not even one third of the earth burning up and a fourth of all mankind killed was noticed.

 

[farouk]

Perhaps beginning with the two more well understood dispensations, OT and NT? Are you dispensational? Or still offering sacrifices?

Much love!

@marks Apt question there...

 

[Iconoclast]

It wasn’t then, it was spiritual then, but will be physical at His second coming,

Jesus at the last supper, when His spiritual kingdom was already here, He told them He won’t drink wine again until His kingdom was set up.

Even the thief on the cross knew Messiah would come into His physical kingdom, as did all the Jews, and at His ascension, Peter, who knew His spiritual kingdom was already among them, asked Jesus when He would set up His kingdom, and Jesus replied that it wasn’t appropriate for Peter to know when that time will be.

Thus you’ve been refuted.

Shalom Aleichem

Not reallycry

Yeah, and every mountain was jarred out of place, and every island too, and mens hearts failed then out off fear of the seas and waves roaring, and the signs in the heavens, a mountain from space fell and killed one third of all sea life, and the seas turned blood red, 125 lb hail stones fell, and the time of tribulation worse than ever was and ever will be, (thus worse than WW2 with 60 million dead) all happened, and no one noticed - not even one third of the earth burning up and a fourth of all mankind killed was noticed.

You show you have no comprehension of this issue.
Explain Isa.13, Isa 34.....I can offer a biblical explanation, I am sure you cannot.
All these events took place even Joel 2 at Pentecost, but you cannot see it.

 

[Iconoclast]

It wasn’t then, it was spiritual then, but will be physical at His second coming,

Jesus at the last supper, when His spiritual kingdom was already here, He told them He won’t drink wine again until His kingdom was set up.

Even the thief on the cross knew Messiah would come into His physical kingdom, as did all the Jews, and at His ascension, Peter, who knew His spiritual kingdom was already among them, asked Jesus when He would set up His kingdom, and Jesus replied that it wasn’t appropriate for Peter to know when that time will be.

Thus you’ve been refuted.

Shalom Aleichem

The kingdom has been inaugurated already, both spiritually and physically.it is spreading worldwide even as we post.