Dispensational problems
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It was a pleasure.
Thanks
I don't put God into boxes in time or boxes of time.
This is how I think:
(1) The following precludes neither the fact that we have been redeemed, nor the fact that we will be redeemed:
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" 1 Corinthians 14:14
"And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23)
The fact that the Kingdom of Christ has come, does not preclude the fact that the Kingdom of Christ is coming:
Matthew 6:9-10
"After this manner therefore pray all of you: Our Father which are in heaven, Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)
I do not believe any part of Revelation chapters 4-11 and 13-19 have been fulfilled, and I believe all those chapters are referring to the final 3.5 years of this Age which precede the return of Christ. I do not believe that the Revelation was penned before A.D 70.
As far as the Olivet Discourse is concerned I believe it was fulfilled in A.D70, in terms of Daniel 9:26-27 (completely fulfilled) but not in terms of the return of Christ that the language seems to suggest or imply. So the box on top of my head neither believes nor disbelieves what I say below:
(2) The following precludes neither an A.D 70 fulfilment of Matthew 23:37-Matthew 24:34, nor a fulfilment at the end of our own Age:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." (Matthew 24:14)
"At that time (toteh) they will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake." (Matthew 24:9)
"And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near. " (Luke 21:28)
I did not write the 95 problems just offered them as those who hold that view have not always considered those things.
I encourage people to study each view.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I might when I get the chance - but in the Internet page where it's posted up. Too many other posts in-between going on in this thread. I just want to read them one by one and be forced to hold my tongue if something makes me incensed at the wording used, and especially if I find another one of the 95 problems - even better title would be "95 disagreements I have with Dispensationalism", and then cut out the word "Dispensationalists.." as far as possible and change it to "Dispensational theology teaches .."
.. especially if I find another 1 of the 95 that misrepresents even what I believe.
Whoever wrote it can do a lot of brushing up.
I was not attacking you, but the document.
fair enough. I was dispensational when I first saw it.did not like it.
They were firing back at specific people who attacked them
You do not have to respond to me, I offered it as a sort of checklist.
I am working on other concerns concerning a proper biblical worldview.
That deals with what is the proper gospel.
where did you go?
What did that language describe in history.
present your understanding of this language.
It was a pleasure.
Thanks
I don't put God into boxes in time or boxes of time.
This is how I think:
(1) The following precludes neither the fact that we have been redeemed, nor the fact that we will be redeemed:
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" 1 Corinthians 14:14
"And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23)
The fact that the Kingdom of Christ has come, does not preclude the fact that the Kingdom of Christ is coming:
Matthew 6:9-10
"After this manner therefore pray all of you: Our Father which are in heaven, Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)
I do not believe any part of Revelation chapters 4-11 and 13-19 have been fulfilled, and I believe all those chapters are referring to the final 3.5 years of this Age which precede the return of Christ. I do not believe that the Revelation was penned before A.D 70.
As far as the Olivet Discourse is concerned I believe it was fulfilled in A.D70, in terms of Daniel 9:26-27 (completely fulfilled) but not in terms of the return of Christ that the language seems to suggest or imply. So the box on top of my head neither believes nor disbelieves what I say below:
(2) The following precludes neither an A.D 70 fulfilment of Matthew 23:37-Matthew 24:34, nor a fulfilment at the end of our own Age:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." (Matthew 24:14)
"At that time (toteh) they will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake." (Matthew 24:9)
"And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near. " (Luke 21:28)
Alright, thank you for sharing your responses with me,
With love in Christ,
Matthew G.
teamventure
Well-Known Member
- Sep 6, 2011
- 1,646
- 550
- 113
No they didn't get destroyed because those are future events, also why they are literal.
Not true, they were destroyed historically.
It is a fact, Babylon. and Idumea were destroyed, You cannot account for the language so you suggest it is future??
Philip Mauro;http://www.revearljackson.com/uploads/3/2/2/5/322557/daniel_seventy_weeks_-_phillip_mauro.pdf
These are the six predicted items:
1. To finish the transgression. The “transgression” of Israel had long been the burden of the messages of God’s prophets. It was for their “transgression” that they had been sent into captivity, and that their land and city had been made a “desolation” for seventy years. Daniel himself had confessed this, saying, “Yea, all Israel have transgressed Thy law. even by departing that they might not obey Thy voice. Therefore the curse is poured upon us” (verse 11). But the angel revealed to him the distressing news that the full measure of Israel’s “transgression” was yet to be completed; that the children were yet to fill up the iniquity of their fathers; and that, as a consequence, God would bring upon them a far greater “desolation” than that which had been wrought by Nebuchadnezzar. For “to finish the transgression” could mean nothing less or other than the betrayal and crucifixion of their promised and expected Messiah. We would call particular attention at this point to the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the leaders of the 14 people shortly before His betrayal; for there is in them a striking similarity to the words of the prophecy of Gabriel. He said: “Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers…that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth” (Matthew 23:32). In these words of Christ we find first, a declaration that the hour had come for them “to finish the transgression”; and second, a strong intimation that the predicted desolations were to come, as a judgment, upon that generation, as appears by the words “that upon you may come.” Our Lord’s concluding words at that time have great significance when considered in the light of this prophecy. He said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation”; and then, as the awful doom of the beloved city pressed upon His heart, He burst into the lamentation, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,” ending with the significant words, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” The terrible and unparalleled character of the judgments which were poured out upon Jerusalem at the time of its destruction in AD 70 has been lost sight of in our day. But if we would learn how great an event it was in the eyes of God, we have only to consider our Lord’s anguish of soul as He thought upon it. Even when on the way to the Cross it was more to Him than His own approaching sufferings (Luke 21:28–30). The apostle Paul also speaks in similar terms of the transgressions of that generation of Jews, who not only crucified the Lord Jesus, and then rejected the gospel preached to them in His Name, but also forbade that He be preached to the Gentiles. Wherefore the apostle said that they “fill up their sins always; for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost” (1 Thessalonians 2:15–16). For they were indeed about to undergo God’s wrath “to the uttermost” in the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, and in the scattering of the people among all the nations of the world, to suffer extreme miseries at their hands. These Scriptures are of much importance in connection with our present study, and we shall have occasion to refer to them again. It is not difficult to discern why the list of the six great things comprised in this prophecy was headed by the finishing of the transgression; for the same act, which constituted the crowning sin of Israel, also served for the putting away of sin (Hebrews 9:26), and the accomplishing of eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12). They did indeed take Him, and with wicked hands crucified and slew Him; but it was done “by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God” (Acts 2:23). The powers and authorities of Judea and of Rome, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were indeed gathered together against Him; but it was to do what God’s own hand and counsel had determined before to be done (Acts 4:26–28). There is nothing more wonderful in all that has been made known to us, than that the people and their rulers, because they knew Him not, nor the voices of their own prophets which were read every Sabbath day, should have fulfilled them in condemning Him (Acts 13:27). Therefore, among the many prophecies that were then “fulfilled,” a promise be given to that which forms the subject of our present study.
2. To make an end of sins. On this item we need not dwell at length; for we have already called attention to the marvellous workings of God’s wisdom in causing that the extreme sin of man should serve to accomplish eternal redemption, and so provide a complete remedy for sin for the crucifixion of Christ, though it was truly a deed of diabolical wickedness on the part of man, was on His own part the offering of Himself without spot to God as a sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:14). It was thus that He “offered the one Sacrifice for sins forever” (Hebrews 10:12). We understand that the sense in which the death of Christ made “an end of sins” was that thereby He made a perfect atonement for sins, as written in Hebrews 1:3, “when He had by Himself purged our sins’” and in many like passages. It is to be noted however, that the Hebrew word for “sins” in this passage means not only the sin itself, but also the sacrifice therefore. Hence it is thought by some that what the angel here foretold was the making an end of the sin offering required by the law. That was, indeed, an incidental result, and it is mentioned expressly in verse 27. But the word used in that verse is not the word found in verse 24, which means sin or sin offering It is a different word, meaning sacrifice. We conclude, therefore, that the words, “to make an end of sins”, should be taken in their most obvious sense.
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity. The word here translated “reconciliation” is usually rendered “atone”, but according to Strong’s Concordance it expresses also the thought of appeasing or reconciling. We shall, therefore, assume that our translators had good reason for using the word “reconciliation.” If, however, it be taken that “atonement” is the better rendering, the conclusion would not be affected; for both atonement and reconciliation were made by the death of Christ upon the cross. 15 The need of reconciliation arises from the fact that man is by nature not only a sinner, but also an enemy of God (Romans 5:8, 10). Moreover, it is because he is a sinner that he is also an enemy. As a sinner he needs to be justified; and as an enemy he needs to be reconciled. The death of Christ as an atoning sacrifice accomplishes both in the case of all who believe in Him. In Romans 5:8–10 these two distinct, but closely related, things are clearly set forth. For we there read, first, that “while we were yet sinners Christ died for us”, and second, that “when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son”. Reconciliation has to do directly with the kingdom of God, in that it signifies the bringing back of those who were rebels and enemies into willing and loyal submission to God. In this connection attention should be given to the great passage in Colossians 1:12–22, which shows that, as the result of the death of Christ, those who have “redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins” (verse 14), are also translated into the kingdom of God’s dear Son (verse 13), Christ “having made peace for them through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself”; and the apostle adds, “And you, who were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh, through death” (verses 20–22). It is certain, therefore, that, when Christ Jesus died and rose again, atonement for sin and reconciliation for the enemies of God were fully and finally accomplished as a matter of historic fact. It is important, and indeed essential, to a right interpretation of this prophecy, to keep in mind that atonement and reconciliation were to be accomplished, and actually were accomplished, within the measure of seventy weeks from the going forth of the decree of King Cyrus. It is thus seen that the prophecy has to do with the great and eternal purpose of God to establish His kingdom — and to bring pardoned and reconciled sinners into it as willing and loyal subjects of Christ, the King. And when the time drew near the kingdom was proclaimed by the Lord and by His forerunner as “at hand.” The Lord’s own words, when taken in connection with the prophecy of Gabriel, are very significant. He said: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15). The time whereof He spoke was that declared in this great prophecy; which is the only prophecy which gives the time of His coming. Hence His words were really the announcement of His approaching death, resurrection and enthronement in heaven, as the heavenly King of God’s heavenly kingdom.
These are the six predicted items:
1. To finish the transgression. The “transgression” of Israel had long been the burden of the messages of God’s prophets. It was for their “transgression” that they had been sent into captivity, and that their land and city had been made a “desolation” for seventy years. Daniel himself had confessed this, saying, “Yea, all Israel have transgressed Thy law. even by departing that they might not obey Thy voice. Therefore the curse is poured upon us” (verse 11). But the angel revealed to him the distressing news that the full measure of Israel’s “transgression” was yet to be completed; that the children were yet to fill up the iniquity of their fathers; and that, as a consequence, God would bring upon them a far greater “desolation” than that which had been wrought by Nebuchadnezzar. For “to finish the transgression” could mean nothing less or other than the betrayal and crucifixion of their promised and expected Messiah. We would call particular attention at this point to the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the leaders of the 14 people shortly before His betrayal; for there is in them a striking similarity to the words of the prophecy of Gabriel. He said: “Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers…that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth” (Matthew 23:32). In these words of Christ we find first, a declaration that the hour had come for them “to finish the transgression”; and second, a strong intimation that the predicted desolations were to come, as a judgment, upon that generation, as appears by the words “that upon you may come.” Our Lord’s concluding words at that time have great significance when considered in the light of this prophecy. He said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation”; and then, as the awful doom of the beloved city pressed upon His heart, He burst into the lamentation, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,” ending with the significant words, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” The terrible and unparalleled character of the judgments which were poured out upon Jerusalem at the time of its destruction in AD 70 has been lost sight of in our day. But if we would learn how great an event it was in the eyes of God, we have only to consider our Lord’s anguish of soul as He thought upon it. Even when on the way to the Cross it was more to Him than His own approaching sufferings (Luke 21:28–30). The apostle Paul also speaks in similar terms of the transgressions of that generation of Jews, who not only crucified the Lord Jesus, and then rejected the gospel preached to them in His Name, but also forbade that He be preached to the Gentiles. Wherefore the apostle said that they “fill up their sins always; for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost” (1 Thessalonians 2:15–16). For they were indeed about to undergo God’s wrath “to the uttermost” in the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, and in the scattering of the people among all the nations of the world, to suffer extreme miseries at their hands. These Scriptures are of much importance in connection with our present study, and we shall have occasion to refer to them again. It is not difficult to discern why the list of the six great things comprised in this prophecy was headed by the finishing of the transgression; for the same act, which constituted the crowning sin of Israel, also served for the putting away of sin (Hebrews 9:26), and the accomplishing of eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12). They did indeed take Him, and with wicked hands crucified and slew Him; but it was done “by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God” (Acts 2:23). The powers and authorities of Judea and of Rome, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were indeed gathered together against Him; but it was to do what God’s own hand and counsel had determined before to be done (Acts 4:26–28). There is nothing more wonderful in all that has been made known to us, than that the people and their rulers, because they knew Him not, nor the voices of their own prophets which were read every Sabbath day, should have fulfilled them in condemning Him (Acts 13:27). Therefore, among the many prophecies that were then “fulfilled,” a promise be given to that which forms the subject of our present study.
2. To make an end of sins. On this item we need not dwell at length; for we have already called attention to the marvellous workings of God’s wisdom in causing that the extreme sin of man should serve to accomplish eternal redemption, and so provide a complete remedy for sin for the crucifixion of Christ, though it was truly a deed of diabolical wickedness on the part of man, was on His own part the offering of Himself without spot to God as a sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:14). It was thus that He “offered the one Sacrifice for sins forever” (Hebrews 10:12). We understand that the sense in which the death of Christ made “an end of sins” was that thereby He made a perfect atonement for sins, as written in Hebrews 1:3, “when He had by Himself purged our sins’” and in many like passages. It is to be noted however, that the Hebrew word for “sins” in this passage means not only the sin itself, but also the sacrifice therefore. Hence it is thought by some that what the angel here foretold was the making an end of the sin offering required by the law. That was, indeed, an incidental result, and it is mentioned expressly in verse 27. But the word used in that verse is not the word found in verse 24, which means sin or sin offering It is a different word, meaning sacrifice. We conclude, therefore, that the words, “to make an end of sins”, should be taken in their most obvious sense.
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity. The word here translated “reconciliation” is usually rendered “atone”, but according to Strong’s Concordance it expresses also the thought of appeasing or reconciling. We shall, therefore, assume that our translators had good reason for using the word “reconciliation.” If, however, it be taken that “atonement” is the better rendering, the conclusion would not be affected; for both atonement and reconciliation were made by the death of Christ upon the cross. 15 The need of reconciliation arises from the fact that man is by nature not only a sinner, but also an enemy of God (Romans 5:8, 10). Moreover, it is because he is a sinner that he is also an enemy. As a sinner he needs to be justified; and as an enemy he needs to be reconciled. The death of Christ as an atoning sacrifice accomplishes both in the case of all who believe in Him. In Romans 5:8–10 these two distinct, but closely related, things are clearly set forth. For we there read, first, that “while we were yet sinners Christ died for us”, and second, that “when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son”. Reconciliation has to do directly with the kingdom of God, in that it signifies the bringing back of those who were rebels and enemies into willing and loyal submission to God. In this connection attention should be given to the great passage in Colossians 1:12–22, which shows that, as the result of the death of Christ, those who have “redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins” (verse 14), are also translated into the kingdom of God’s dear Son (verse 13), Christ “having made peace for them through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself”; and the apostle adds, “And you, who were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh, through death” (verses 20–22). It is certain, therefore, that, when Christ Jesus died and rose again, atonement for sin and reconciliation for the enemies of God were fully and finally accomplished as a matter of historic fact. It is important, and indeed essential, to a right interpretation of this prophecy, to keep in mind that atonement and reconciliation were to be accomplished, and actually were accomplished, within the measure of seventy weeks from the going forth of the decree of King Cyrus. It is thus seen that the prophecy has to do with the great and eternal purpose of God to establish His kingdom — and to bring pardoned and reconciled sinners into it as willing and loyal subjects of Christ, the King. And when the time drew near the kingdom was proclaimed by the Lord and by His forerunner as “at hand.” The Lord’s own words, when taken in connection with the prophecy of Gabriel, are very significant. He said: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15). The time whereof He spoke was that declared in this great prophecy; which is the only prophecy which gives the time of His coming. Hence His words were really the announcement of His approaching death, resurrection and enthronement in heaven, as the heavenly King of God’s heavenly kingdom.
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness. Righteousness is the most prominent feature of the kingdom of God. To show this we need only cite those familiar passages: “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness” (Matthew 6:33); “the kingdom of God is righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14:17). One characteristic of God’s righteousness, which He was “to bring in” through the sacrifice of Christ ((Romans 3:21–26), is that it endures forever; and this is what is emphasized in the prophecy. A work was to be done, and now has been done, which would bring in everlasting righteousness — everlasting because based upon the Cross, as foretold also through Isaiah, “My righteousness shall be forever” (Isaiah 51:8). Jesus Christ has now been made unto US “righteous” (1 Corinthians 1:30); and this is in fulfillment of another great promise: “behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise Unto David a righteous Branch, and a King reign and prosper And this is His Name whereby He shall be called JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Jeremiah 23:5–6).
5. To seal up vision and prophecy. This we take to mean the sealing up of God’s word of prophecy to the Israelites, as part of the punishment they brought upon themselves. The word “seal up” sometimes means, in a secondary sense, to make secure, since what is tightly sealed up is made safe against being tampered with. Hence some have understood by this item merely that vision and prophecy were to be fulfilled. But we are not aware that the word “sealed up” is used in that sense in the Scriptures. For when the fulfillment of prophecy is meant, the word “to fulfill” is used. We think the word should be taken here in its primary meaning; for it was distinctly foretold, as a prominent feature of Israel’s punishment that both vision and prophet — i.e., both eye and ear — were to be closed up, so that seeing they would see not, and hearing they would hear not (Isaiah 6:10). Moreover, this very sealing up of vision and prophecy as a part of the chastening of Israel was foretold by Isaiah in that great passage where he speaks of Christ as the Foundation Stone (Isaiah 28:16). Following this is a prediction of “woe” to the city where David dwelt (29:1). So we have here a prophecy which is parallel to that of Gabriel. The latter spoke of the cutting off of Messiah to be followed by the destruction of Jerusalem; and Isaiah also spoke of Christ as God’s Foundation Stone, laid in Zion (resurrection) and 16 then of the overthrow of the earthly Zion. As to this overthrow God speaks through Isaiah very definitely saying, “And I will camp against thee round about and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and raise a fort against thee, and thou shalt be brought down” (Isaiah 29:1–4). Then the prophet speaks of a coming storm and tempest and devouring fire and also of the multitude of the nations that were to fight against the city (verses 6–9). And then come these significant words: “For the Lord God hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes, the prophets’ and your rulers, the seers, hath He covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed” (verses 10–11). This manifestly corresponds with Gabriel’s words “to seal up vision and prophet.” Moreover, the word “sealed,” in Isaiah 29:11, is the same as in Daniel 9:24. These words of Isaiah also give a remarkably accurate description of the spiritual blindness of the people and their rulers in Christ’s day, who, though they read the prophets every Sabbath day, yet because they knew not their voices, fulfilled them in condemning Him (Acts 13:27). The fulfillment of Isaiah 6 also comes in here. For the Lord Himself declared that, in His day, was fulfilled the word “Go and tell this people, Hear ye indeed but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed” (Isaiah 6:9–10; Matthew 13:14–15). John also quotes this prophecy and applies it to the Jews of his day (John 12:39–41); and Paul does the same (Acts 28:25–27). Hence we should note with deep interest the question which this sentence of judgment prompted Isaiah to ask, and the answer he received. Evidently the prophet understood that the judgment pronounced in the words quoted above was to be one of terrible severity, for he at once inquired anxiously, “How long” the period of judicial blindness was to last. The answer was, “Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, and the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land” (Isaiah 6:11–12). Here we have a clear prediction of that which Christ Himself prophesied when the desolation of Judea, and the scattering of the Jews among all nations (Luke 21:24).
6. To anoint the most holy place. When these papers were first written and published in serial form, we were of opinion that this prediction had its fulfillment in the entrance of the Lord Jesus Christ into the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 9:23–24). But subsequently a copy of Dr. Pusey’s work on Daniel the Prophet came into our hands, and we were much impressed by the exposition of this passage given by that great Hebrew scholar, who so ably defended the Book of Daniel from the assaults of the destructive critics. He pointed out that the word anoint had acquired a settled spiritual meaning, citing the words of Isaiah 61:1–2, which our Lord applied to Himself as He Whom God had “anointed.” Dr. Pusey also pointed out that, inasmuch as the same word is used in the very next verse of Daniel “unto the Anointed, the Prince” it is to be assumed that words so closely united must be used with the same meaning. This gives the idea of an “anointing of an All Holy place” by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit thereon.
5. To seal up vision and prophecy. This we take to mean the sealing up of God’s word of prophecy to the Israelites, as part of the punishment they brought upon themselves. The word “seal up” sometimes means, in a secondary sense, to make secure, since what is tightly sealed up is made safe against being tampered with. Hence some have understood by this item merely that vision and prophecy were to be fulfilled. But we are not aware that the word “sealed up” is used in that sense in the Scriptures. For when the fulfillment of prophecy is meant, the word “to fulfill” is used. We think the word should be taken here in its primary meaning; for it was distinctly foretold, as a prominent feature of Israel’s punishment that both vision and prophet — i.e., both eye and ear — were to be closed up, so that seeing they would see not, and hearing they would hear not (Isaiah 6:10). Moreover, this very sealing up of vision and prophecy as a part of the chastening of Israel was foretold by Isaiah in that great passage where he speaks of Christ as the Foundation Stone (Isaiah 28:16). Following this is a prediction of “woe” to the city where David dwelt (29:1). So we have here a prophecy which is parallel to that of Gabriel. The latter spoke of the cutting off of Messiah to be followed by the destruction of Jerusalem; and Isaiah also spoke of Christ as God’s Foundation Stone, laid in Zion (resurrection) and 16 then of the overthrow of the earthly Zion. As to this overthrow God speaks through Isaiah very definitely saying, “And I will camp against thee round about and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and raise a fort against thee, and thou shalt be brought down” (Isaiah 29:1–4). Then the prophet speaks of a coming storm and tempest and devouring fire and also of the multitude of the nations that were to fight against the city (verses 6–9). And then come these significant words: “For the Lord God hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes, the prophets’ and your rulers, the seers, hath He covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed” (verses 10–11). This manifestly corresponds with Gabriel’s words “to seal up vision and prophet.” Moreover, the word “sealed,” in Isaiah 29:11, is the same as in Daniel 9:24. These words of Isaiah also give a remarkably accurate description of the spiritual blindness of the people and their rulers in Christ’s day, who, though they read the prophets every Sabbath day, yet because they knew not their voices, fulfilled them in condemning Him (Acts 13:27). The fulfillment of Isaiah 6 also comes in here. For the Lord Himself declared that, in His day, was fulfilled the word “Go and tell this people, Hear ye indeed but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed” (Isaiah 6:9–10; Matthew 13:14–15). John also quotes this prophecy and applies it to the Jews of his day (John 12:39–41); and Paul does the same (Acts 28:25–27). Hence we should note with deep interest the question which this sentence of judgment prompted Isaiah to ask, and the answer he received. Evidently the prophet understood that the judgment pronounced in the words quoted above was to be one of terrible severity, for he at once inquired anxiously, “How long” the period of judicial blindness was to last. The answer was, “Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, and the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land” (Isaiah 6:11–12). Here we have a clear prediction of that which Christ Himself prophesied when the desolation of Judea, and the scattering of the Jews among all nations (Luke 21:24).
6. To anoint the most holy place. When these papers were first written and published in serial form, we were of opinion that this prediction had its fulfillment in the entrance of the Lord Jesus Christ into the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 9:23–24). But subsequently a copy of Dr. Pusey’s work on Daniel the Prophet came into our hands, and we were much impressed by the exposition of this passage given by that great Hebrew scholar, who so ably defended the Book of Daniel from the assaults of the destructive critics. He pointed out that the word anoint had acquired a settled spiritual meaning, citing the words of Isaiah 61:1–2, which our Lord applied to Himself as He Whom God had “anointed.” Dr. Pusey also pointed out that, inasmuch as the same word is used in the very next verse of Daniel “unto the Anointed, the Prince” it is to be assumed that words so closely united must be used with the same meaning. This gives the idea of an “anointing of an All Holy place” by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit thereon.
Matthew Henry;
Chapter Contents
The armies of God's wrath. (1-5) The conquest of Babylon. (6-18) Its final desolation. (19-22)
Commentary on Isaiah 13:1-5
(Read Isaiah 13:1-5)
The threatenings of God's word press heavily upon the wicked, and are a sore burden, too heavy for them to bear. The persons brought together to lay Babylon waste, are called God's sanctified or appointed ones; designed for this service, and made able to do it. They are called God's mighty ones, because they had their might from God, and were now to use it for him. They come from afar. God can make those a scourge and ruin to his enemies, who are farthest off, and therefore least dreaded.
Commentary on Isaiah 13:6-18
(Read Isaiah 13:6-18)
We have here the terrible desolation of Babylon by the Medes and Persians. Those who in the day of their peace were proud, and haughty, and terrible, are quite dispirited when trouble comes. Their faces shall be scorched with the flame. All comfort and hope shall fail. The stars of heaven shall not give their light, the sun shall be darkened. Such expressions are often employed by the prophets, to describe the convulsions of governments. God will visit them for their iniquity, particularly the sin of pride, which brings men low. There shall be a general scene of horror. Those who join themselves to Babylon, must expect to share her plagues, Revelation 18:4. All that men have, they would give for their lives, but no man's riches shall be the ransom of his life. Pause here and wonder that men should be thus cruel and inhuman, and see how corrupt the nature of man is become. And that little infants thus suffer, which shows that there is an original guilt, by which life is forfeited as soon as it is begun. The day of the Lord will, indeed, be terrible with wrath and fierce anger, far beyond all here stated. Nor will there be any place for the sinner to flee to, or attempt an escape. But few act as though they believed these things.
Commentary on Isaiah 13:19-22
(Read Isaiah 13:19-22)
Babylon was a noble city; yet it should be wholly destroyed. None shall dwell there. It shall be a haunt for wild beasts. All this is fulfilled. The fate of this proud city is a proof of the truth of the Bible, and an emblem of the approaching ruin of the New Testament Babylon; a warning to sinners to flee from the wrath to come, and it encourages believers to expect victory over every enemy of their souls, and of the church of God. The whole world changes and is liable to decay. Wherefore let us give diligence to obtain a kingdom which cannot be moved; and in this hope let us hold fast that grace whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
Maybe you should smile less and read more,lol
Chapter Contents
The armies of God's wrath. (1-5) The conquest of Babylon. (6-18) Its final desolation. (19-22)
Commentary on Isaiah 13:1-5
(Read Isaiah 13:1-5)
The threatenings of God's word press heavily upon the wicked, and are a sore burden, too heavy for them to bear. The persons brought together to lay Babylon waste, are called God's sanctified or appointed ones; designed for this service, and made able to do it. They are called God's mighty ones, because they had their might from God, and were now to use it for him. They come from afar. God can make those a scourge and ruin to his enemies, who are farthest off, and therefore least dreaded.
Commentary on Isaiah 13:6-18
(Read Isaiah 13:6-18)
We have here the terrible desolation of Babylon by the Medes and Persians. Those who in the day of their peace were proud, and haughty, and terrible, are quite dispirited when trouble comes. Their faces shall be scorched with the flame. All comfort and hope shall fail. The stars of heaven shall not give their light, the sun shall be darkened. Such expressions are often employed by the prophets, to describe the convulsions of governments. God will visit them for their iniquity, particularly the sin of pride, which brings men low. There shall be a general scene of horror. Those who join themselves to Babylon, must expect to share her plagues, Revelation 18:4. All that men have, they would give for their lives, but no man's riches shall be the ransom of his life. Pause here and wonder that men should be thus cruel and inhuman, and see how corrupt the nature of man is become. And that little infants thus suffer, which shows that there is an original guilt, by which life is forfeited as soon as it is begun. The day of the Lord will, indeed, be terrible with wrath and fierce anger, far beyond all here stated. Nor will there be any place for the sinner to flee to, or attempt an escape. But few act as though they believed these things.
Commentary on Isaiah 13:19-22
(Read Isaiah 13:19-22)
Babylon was a noble city; yet it should be wholly destroyed. None shall dwell there. It shall be a haunt for wild beasts. All this is fulfilled. The fate of this proud city is a proof of the truth of the Bible, and an emblem of the approaching ruin of the New Testament Babylon; a warning to sinners to flee from the wrath to come, and it encourages believers to expect victory over every enemy of their souls, and of the church of God. The whole world changes and is liable to decay. Wherefore let us give diligence to obtain a kingdom which cannot be moved; and in this hope let us hold fast that grace whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
.. and that's what I've learned from Partial Preterists in the last month. So many Christians in our generation want all O.T prophecy to be all about us and our Age, and the return of Christ also to be about us and our Age too. No one else counts. No other generation ever counted. God never ever spoke to any other generation. All prophecies refer to us.
And even if it was about them too, ultimately, it's all about us.
Please bear that in mind whenever you read such expressions in scripture
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teamventure
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- Sep 6, 2011
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The bible dictates the meaning.
You did not even know those verses were there,then you denied those judgments took place.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The flaws is that according to this 490 days, to rebuild Jerusalem, Jerusalem will have to be destroyed first, then rebuilt in 49 days, it will have a moat, it will be destroyed by a flood.
Also how Can Christ come to earth at any point of these 490 days, if the Second Coming destroys earth before the last 7 days, when this "bad stuff" happens?
Daniel still has Christ on earth as both Messiah and Prince. Obviously in this future 490 days, there is no Messiah, only a Prince. It is like preterism, but putting all "the eggs" in a future time zone instead of the first century.
The 70th week is Christ the Lord on this earth. If Christ and Lord were not on earth in the first century, then the gap is still the fulness of the Gentiles. If Christ was Lord on earth in the first century, then no Second Coming, but the gap is still fulness of the Gentiles. If Christ was cut off in the first century, no gap in the life of Christ, still a very long 70th week. The gap still being the fulness of the Gentiles.
Any one denying a gap, is only denying, yep, the fulness of the Gentiles. Guess most think themselves spiritual Jews, so who cares about them Gentiles, no?
teamventure
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No I didn't. I denied that the clouds rolled up like a scroll and that the stars have fallen from heaven. Those things obviously haven't happened yet.
Have a good day.
Truth7t7
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- Jan 2, 2014
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I Agree 100%
"The Preterist Motto" If It Dosent Fit 70AD Fulfillment, Change It Through Symbolic Allegory
Preterist claim the second coming of Jesus Christ isn't literally seen below, that takes the cake!
Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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