Jesus Is God: Part 1

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farouk

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Interesting...

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jhn 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Jhn 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Who sent him?

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Who is speaking?

Either God is Jesus in the NT, or Jesus is God in the OT.
There is only One God. And the Word that he sent and became flesh, and we spoke with him face to face.

We look at the flesh body, it is human nature/carnal.
That body perished.
The Word returned to God who sent it.
We call the Word a he because he came in the form of a man.
And so we judge with the eyes that the Word and the body that contained it, must be somehow different or other than the one who sent it.

The one who sent the Word, is the Word in the flesh.

In Revelations 1:1. God is testifying of the Word he sent. He is prophesying what his Word has done, what is doing, and is yet to do.

And the Word that was made flesh returns unto the one that sent the Word.
Who's mouth did the Word of God come from?

Hard to look past the flesh isn't it??
We see Jesus we see a man that's flesh and blood.
He was created this way so he could speak to us face to face.
Not like when He was on Mt. Sinai and the people feared his voice and told Moses to be his mouth for him.

Jesus was created as a vessel to hold His Word and to speak to the people.
He was fully human flesh and fully God's Spirit.
The flesh was crucified and died.
The Word returned to him that sent it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Hugs
@Ziggy Bearing in mind the mystery of the Incarnation (John 1.14), it is heartening also to remember that the Lord Jesus, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last (Revelation) is the eternal Son of God: 'Unto the Son, He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever' (Hebrews 1).
 

Wrangler

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You are still not respecting my simple request that we set it aside and deal with it when I have time, and are now openly implying I have nothing to reply.

We all know you have talked about time constraints. Until you have the time to reply, let who responds have their moment in the sun. Lighten up bud. You started a good thread.

Now onto the point. Request denied. (Requests are not to be 'respected.' They are to be answered.) APAK answered 'no' (by implication) but it is you who seem to struggle with respect here. Listen, we are all God's children here. We all love the word of God and we all call Jesus our master (lord) and savior.

I love your contributions to this thread. Your posts are quite thoughtful and I enjoy the exchanges were we have different doctrines. Thanks!
 

Brakelite

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I think you need to calm down a bit here..working too hard. You presume too much of me and I do not accuse. You are wasting your time with empty words like trying to shoot down a flea with a BB gun. It is useless.

I did however point out that you left out the meat of the BU commentary. Quite obvious don't you think? And you have your reasons...

And your comment on, "....you have waited until after I publicly stated...." is simply childish and completely untrue. The post I presented was produced as a result of seeing and reading your thread for the first time. I did not wait in ambush. I do not scheme, I'm direct and honest with my intentions here. Need to get over it and stop imagining someone trying to creep in to your castle unawares.

And I see you had nothing to say on the substance of my post then.

So let me take the opportunity to elaborate a bit on the idiom in John 17:5b.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Christ is now asking his Father as the time is very soon, days a way, when he shall ascend into heaven. He wants his Father to transform him from mortality to immortality, and with power in his Father's presence (as his right arm/hand), in heaven. And that this glorification in heaven was planned for and existed in the foreknowledge of God, his Father, before the world began. This is the first and last glorification for Christ.

The scripture is not trying to say Christ was actually with his Father before time, and both previously in glory. This would make no sense even from a contextual view. And there is no scripture to support such a thing. And then what is the purpose of Christ having TWO glorifications? It makes no sense.

He just said in 17:1 that the time was now to glorify him so that he might glorify his Father (in heaven). We can easily presume it has to be for the FIRST time. If those that still linger on to the notion that Christ was previously (first)glorified with immortality with his Father before time then how do you account for even the words of 17:1. This then would have to be a second type of glorification. The first glorification then is never mentioned in scripture. why?
It makes sense of you consider the Son laying aside His glory in order to become a man. Philippians 2.
 
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Ziggy

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@Ziggy Bearing in mind the mystery of the Incarnation (John 1.14), it is heartening also to remember that the Lord Jesus, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last (Revelation) is the eternal Son of God: 'Unto the Son, He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever' (Hebrews 1).
The Son is the Word that was spoken.
Gee this could get graphic...

The Word is the seed which came from God's mouth.
wrap that around your mind..

This seed became flesh and dwelt among us.
Only way there can be an Incarnation is if no man was involved. It is not by human seed which comes from other parts.
This seed came from the mouth of God.
He gave His Word.

I will spew thee out of my mouth... luke warm... what is that??

I was thinking this morning about idle words.
What does idle mean?
the motors running but your not going nowhere.

Idle words would be like talking but making no progress, just blowing hot air..
When God speaks, There is No idleness in there.
He sends his word, it does what it is sent to do, and returns to him not empty.
All that my father hath given me...
That word came and returned bountifully.
And is still active today... and forever more.

Idle words just drift away..... forgotten, spinning it's own wheels and getting nowhere.

Be ye fruitful and multiply..
:)

Hugs
 

Curtis

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This is NOT what Hebrews says. In modern parlance, it is my throne, which you will sit in forever.

I swear, the deliberate misinterpreting Scripture to support an inherently contradictory doctrine knows no bounds.
Sorry, that is un spinnable - the Greek says SOU THRONOS THEOS AEION:

SOU - thy

THRONOS - throne

THEOS - God

AEION - forever

The proper translation is therefore: thy throne, o God, is forever.
 

Curtis

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Sorry, that is un spinnable - the Greek says SOU THRONOS THEOS AEION:

SOU - thy

THRONOS - throne

THEOS - God

AEION - forever

The proper translation is therefore: God says to His son, thy throne, o God, is forever.
 

Ziggy

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Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

I see Heaven as the mind and the earth as the body.
And we are the temple being built to be inhabited by the Lord.

Let this mind be in you... the kingdom of heaven is within you..
your thoughts are not my thoughts..
where shall I lay my head?

just thinking..
Hugs
 

Waiting on him

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So The Lord would put his word into the mouths of the prophets to speak to us.. like Moses.
But.. Now He has put his Word into a temple he created for himself. A flesh body he created to put his word in and speak to us face to face.
SO COOL!!
I believe this is David’s throne.
 

Ziggy

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The heart of man is His eternal throne.
What is the difference between the heart and the mind?
The heart feels and the mind thinks...
emotions and logic
is logic the same as wisdom?

I'm just thinking out loud..
(nothing unusual to see here)

Let this mind be in you...

Just a whataboutism...

Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

lifted up and hardened in pride, are they the same thing?

hard hearts I have hardened Pharoahs heart... mind hardened in pride..

The Kingdom of God is within you..

If we were to take off this physical flesh cloak, I wonder what we would truly look like.

Would we be confined to one form, this body, or something more?
I'm sure it will be interesting to find out
:)

Hugs
 

farouk

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What is the difference between the heart and the mind?
The heart feels and the mind thinks...
emotions and logic
is logic the same as wisdom?

I'm just thinking out loud..
(nothing unusual to see here)

Let this mind be in you...

Just a whataboutism...

Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

lifted up and hardened in pride, are they the same thing?

hard hearts I have hardened Pharoahs heart... mind hardened in pride..

The Kingdom of God is within you..

If we were to take off this physical flesh cloak, I wonder what we would truly look like.

Would we be confined to one form, this body, or something more?
I'm sure it will be interesting to find out
:)

Hugs
@Ziggy There has been over the centuries a lot of discussion about how exactly body, soul and spirit correspond with Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Scripture. I do think that it's safe and wise to concentrate on the statements of Scripture about these various subjects...
 
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APAK

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It makes sense of you consider the Son laying aside His glory in order to become a man. Philippians 2.
Backlit, you are missing one of the key points. How do you define glory here is crucial. The Son was given glory once or twice in heaven at the right hand of his Father in heaven? I only read of one glory in heaven, after His ascension.
 

APAK

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APAK, the fact that you are still pestering me indicates my words hold true.


APAK, THIS is childish. I don't what know what happened to you, but something changed. But again my words are holding true. You are still not respecting my simple request that we set it aside and deal with it when I have time, and are now openly implying I have nothing to reply.

So I guess I'll have to deal with this sad business since you apparently think I'm mentally beneath you, and thanks so much for forcing the issue.


You honestly think this argument is beyond refutation, and closes the discussion? That it is beyond question that έχω is used and an idiom, and without so much as a shred of further support? You know as well as I do how weak a position that is. You are posting as if it's some sort of revelation it's occasionally used as an idiom. What you needed to do to even remotely have an argument here was establish that έχω is used primarily as an idiom, and we both know what a fallacious argument that would be. Or do actually wish to argue that? Otherwise you are simply throwing up a Hail Mary, having offered zero additional support for your argument. And yet you present it as if it should be "clear as a bell" to me. You're kidding, right?

And what is with this pompous, presumptuously erudite insinuation that anyone who doesn't agree with the Unitarian position simply isn't "thinking clearly"? You deliberately highlighted it in the quote you provided, and then added in your own two cents by asking me if it was "clear as a bell" for me now. How exactly did I arrive at my "programmed metal state" APAK, since you know so much about my conversion, my upbringing, my church involvement, where and from whom I received my spiritual education, and how I arrive at my conclusions. Then again, maybe none of that is important anyway, because after all, I'm having to work SO hard just to reply to you. And you and your Unitarian friend you think I was incapable of refuting apparently both believe it's because I have trouble thinking clearly.

Would you like to "clarify" things for me? Maybe once again my metal deficiencies are getting the better of me? I swear, APAK, you couldn't be the least bit respectful of my time or of me as a sentient human being, and over THIS argument... and instead of letting me move on, I have to defend myself against the open accusation of supposedly having "nothing to reply with." :rolleyes:

Dude, it's sickening. And yet, let me guess, I am now "overacting" as well, in addition to having such a clouded mind that it's a miracle I managed to muster a response.

I have to go, so let me ask you again. Is it ok if we set this aside for now, or are you unable to let it go, and will continue insinuating or outright stating that I'm incapable of responding to your "arguments"?

Yours,
Hidden
Your reply is void of substance. I would stop whining and sobbing and get the the objective discussion of scripture at hand, and maybe respond to the one or two glorification periods of Christ I posed would be a mature approach forward and enhance you thread.

If not, I'm out of your thread.

APAK
 

Hidden In Him

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We all know you have talked about time constraints. Until you have the time to reply, let who responds have their moment in the sun. Lighten up bud. You started a good thread.

Now onto the point. Request denied. (Requests are not to be 'respected.' They are to be answered.) APAK answered 'no' (by implication) but it is you who seem to struggle with respect here. Listen, we are all God's children here. We all love the word of God and we all call Jesus our master (lord) and savior.

I love your contributions to this thread. Your posts are quite thoughtful and I enjoy the exchanges were we have different doctrines. Thanks!

Well thanks for the courteous post.

The reason for my last few exchanges with APAK is because this forum over the past years that I've been a member here has generally been characterized by a higher level of maturity regarding how the senior members addressed one another. There are several here who do so, including Amadeus and Backlit, both of whom I have some significant disagreements with theologically but who nevertheless would easily and respectfully grant my request to postpone if necessary. (Backlit is doing so at present as a matter of fact).

Admittedly I probably should have known better by starting a thread with only a few days to participate, but APAK is still on with his antagonisms and insinuating I have nothing of substance to post, which is truly disappointing. So I appreciate a level of decency, courtesy and spiritual maturity in your response.

God bless! And looking forward to talking with you in the future!
Hidden
Let me clarify a little more. Belief that at some time 'in eternity' the Son came forth from His Father, thus becoming a son in the highest sense, does not mean He isn't eternal. As a Son of God He inherited all things that the Father is. With God He does all things to perfection. Thus Christ was the 'express image' of the Father. A perfect reproduction if you like, thus equal in glory, honor, authority and power. Equal in all things except rank. That makes the Son, God. In fact it's the only thing that makes the Son God. It's the greatest evidence to His deity, which is why the apostle John went to such great pains to teach it in his gospel and letters.
Jesus inherited His Father's life. The same life. Eternal. And immortal.

Hey Bro. My apologies. I read through your responses, and it's certainly an interesting curiosity to think about. Whether there are scriptures to the effect that the Son of God is uncreated, that would be a different subject matter, and searching for scriptures to address it might be hard to come by.

But maybe next go around. Thanks for the posts, and you're always good to talk to. :cool:
 
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Waiting on him

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John 17:5 KJV
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
It appears the world in reference in John 17:5
Is referring to Israel.
Could it be possible that the word world in John 17:5 is a reference to a new age that’s foundation would be laid at Calvary?
 
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Ziggy

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John 17:5 KJV
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
It appears the world in reference in John 17:5
Is referring to Israel.
Could it be possible that the word world in John 17:5 is a reference to a new age that’s foundation would be laid at Calvary?
I found two instances where the word "worlds" is found.
If there is more than one world...

Does the word world refer to foundations?
The first world being destroyed by the flood, that which was. The world Jesus was residing in, that which is. And the new foundation being laid at calvary, that which is to come.
If we are living in that which is to come...

how many foundations? 12 ?

just thinking..
hugs
 
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farouk

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Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

I see Heaven as the mind and the earth as the body.
And we are the temple being built to be inhabited by the Lord.

Let this mind be in you... the kingdom of heaven is within you..
your thoughts are not my thoughts..
where shall I lay my head?

just thinking..
Hugs
@Ziggy Interesting theme there...
 
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Ziggy

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@Ziggy Interesting theme there...
Kind of scattered..
We individually and collectively are the house/body of the Lord.
Members in particular..
When the Lord takes up residence in you, and the kingdom of heaven is within you, then like Waiting on Him said, the Throne is the heart.
If the throne is the heart then heaven which the throne resides I'm thinking is the mind.

Love the Lord thy God with all thy Heart, Mind, and Soul.
I'm not sure if the soul is the physical body or the life in the blood in the physical body.. the spirit in man.
But there is a difference between the heart and the mind.
Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus..
what kind of mind is that?

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

And I understand that this way:
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

My Sig quotes: Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

We have this power that was given to us to overcome the enemy. The spiritual enemy. Serpents and scorpions being the liars, traitors, blasphemers, unthankful, unholy... in 2 Timothy 3.
Having a "form" of godliness.. meaning we are Ambassadors for the Lord, we are acting in his stead.
But denying the power to overcome these obstacles, to face them head on and call them out for who they are.. Ye Hypocrites..

This mind of godliness is given to us by Christ to overcome the enemy. But we're not using it. Do we feel as though we are usurping God's authority by calling out evil when we see it?
Who being in the "form" of God, thought it NOT robbery to be equal with God.

But made himself of no reputation...
We are not supposed to be getting on our soapbox in the middle of town square, claiming that we are God, even though we have the same power to call out evil as God does. We are not supposed to make ourselves "famous" or toot our own horn of self-righteousness.

and took upon him the "form" of a servant.

Let this mind be in you..

Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

And yet we still receive the power of Ambassadorship to walk in His name.
Many shall come saying, I am Christ....
making themselves more than equal, they put their own authority above the Lord.
believe them not.

And was made in the likeness of men.

When we are born again... we are walking in the spirit of the Lord. And yet we still are residing in this carnal world.
We walk among men as other men, even though inside we have been changed.

Jesus decreased in stature at the same time raising our statures.
He came down to raise us up.

This mind.. is lifting others up. We are always our brother's keeper. We are always the good samaritan.

obedient to death...
Self denial of ego, pride, willing to put yourself on the line for another.

This is that mind.

What is the heart?

Thinking..
Hugs