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Jesus Is God: Part 1

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    This kind of talk is exactly why these discussions never get anywhere. :mad:
     
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  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is COMPLETELY FALSE AND MISLEADING. I will give you just one passage to refute that nonsense. If all the angels of God are commanded to worship the Son, that in itself means that He is God. But the Father does not stop there. He addresses the Son as "God" (Theos) -- not once but twice.

    HEBREWS 1: GOD THE FATHER CALLS THE SON "GOD" (THEOS)
    5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?
    6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
    7 And of the angels He saith, Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
    8 But unto the Son
    he [God the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,
    even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

    Every attempt to reject the deity of Christ is pure heresy, since the Bible does not leave any wiggle room for such nonsense.

    But for those who may not be familiar with the corrupt bible translation of the JWs known as the New World Translation, this passage was DELIBERATELY CORRUPTED in order to reject the deity of Christ. In fact it was made to say something totally absurd. But all the doctrines of this cult are absurd and will send people to Hell.
     
  3. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    This is NOT what Hebrews says. In modern parlance, it is my throne, which you will sit in forever.

    I swear, the deliberate misinterpreting Scripture to support an inherently contradictory doctrine knows no bounds.
     
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  4. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Let me finish the entire argument or commentary that you omitted by this Biblical Unitarian:

    , and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if, as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 2:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to some type of God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.

    We believe that John 17:5 is a great example of a verse that demonstrates the need for clear thinking concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. The verse can clearly be interpreted in a way that is honest and biblically sound, and shows that Christ was a man, but was in the foreknowledge of God as God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. It can also be used the way Trinitarians use it: to prove the Trinity. However, when it is used that way it reveals a Christ that we as Christians cannot truly identify with. We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom. The Bible says that Christ can “sympathize with our weakness” because he was “tempted in every way, just as we are” (Heb. 4:15). The thrust of that verse is very straightforward. Because Christ was just like we are, and was tempted in every way that we are, he can sympathize with us. However, if he was not “just as we are,” then he would not be able to sympathize with us. We assert that making Christ a God-man makes it impossible to really identify with him.

    3. Jesus’ prayer in John 17 sets a wonderful example for us as Christians. He poured out his heart to his Father, “the only true God” (John 17:3), and prayed that the prophecies of the Old Testament about him would be fulfilled.

    And further, in the verse you present of John 17:5, there is an idiom present that is never to be taken literally? It was a common cultural idiom of that day. The 'I had' you bolded is perfect, because it means 'he had' or possessed according his human understanding and knowledge written in scripture at least, and promised by his Father for his immediate future. as he awaited death on the Cross. Christ knew what he meant and could not wait to have this promised glory.

    And finally, as you said, "The word (this verse) ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions."

    And this is what the verse actually says, without having to ever consider manipulating it into another saying out of ignorance of its Greek form, into ones own modern fashion or programmed mental state.

    Clear as a bell then?

    APAK
     
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  5. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Active Member

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    Never have you once in your life shown where the Trinitarian doctrine is inherently contradictory. If you have done this even once, even for a passing moment of thought, do so again.
     
  6. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Active Member

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    The discussion by it's nature can not get anywhere. The positions are can not be reconciled to one another and have entirely different worldviews behind them. The only "getting somewhere" in such a discussion is one person submitting to the position of another.
     
  7. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Appeal to intimidation. What verse says if you do not believe in the trinity, you cannot be saved and will go to hell?
     
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  8. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Just plug the claims like that into John 1:1 and see if it makes any sense at all: in the beginning was the plan of God that existed in His mind, and the plan of God that existed in His mind was WITH God, and the plan that existed in the mind of God WAS God.

    You can plug in the claim that the Word just means the spoken word of God in John 1 as well.
     
  9. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    JWs aren’t lost for only believing that Jesus is the Son of God - because even though the solid food of believers is the fact that Jesus is divinity, God enables those stuck on milk and in theological diapers, who only believe He is Gods son, to be saved - because the salvation criteria is belief He is Gods son.

    JWs are lost because they believe in a non biblical way of salvation instead of what Paul gives us in Romans 10:8-13, and try to work their way into the kingdom by knocking on doors.

    Prayer for salvation: Lord Jesus, I believe you died for my sins and rose again - please come into my heart, forgive my sins, save my soul, and make me a new creation. In your name, amen

    Shalom Aleichem
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
  10. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Not an answer to the question.
     
  11. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    From Forum Terms And Rules:

    [*]Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians. If there is an issue where a member seems to have circumvented the basic tenants of the faith in order to join the community, please privately contact the Christianity Board Team to voice your concern.
     
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  12. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    I think it important that we share a true perspective of Father Son relationships from a Godly example... There are many who through a less than ideal and even abusive relationship with their own human fathers cannot envisage a Father God being any better, particularly in light of false theories and doctrines regarding eternal torment etc. What Father would do that they say... And rightly so. Calvary however bring true light to the love and mercy of God and gives Fatherhood it's right glory.
     
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  13. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    There is much in your quote I agree with. Yes, Jesus was a man and certainly could empathize and sympathize with our lives and temptations... His temptations as you say were very real. He inherited the very same weaknesses we inherit from our ancestors. He can from a line of prostitutes, murderers, and other sinners, just as we do. 4000 years of declining human strength and moral integrity. Yet He never sinned. Neither in thought or deed. Why is that? How did He do that, and how is He our example of we cannot do the same? He lived by faith. Your Unitarian friend said Jesus had no memory of His past existence. That is true. But He knew of it because He could read the scriptures, and read about Himself there. Can you imagine the first time as a child coming to the realization that God was His Father in the highest sense? That He did have a pre incarnate existence and His whole purpose in life was to live out His mission to save mankind... His creation? Yes, and the gift of His Son to mankind was so broad, so deep, it was permanent. The Son of God, while remaining His Father's Son, will also always be identified as human. Mankind, through Christ, will always in all eternity be linked with the God of that universe in ways no other being including angels could every have, in links that can never be broken.
    We do have the same means as Christ did to live holy sinless lives.
    KJV 2 Peter 1:2-4
    2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
     
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  14. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Actually it is the answer.
     
  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    APAK, who else on this forum besides possibly you, I, and a few others would read through the entire article if it were posted in the OP? Or do you accuse me of being deliberately deceitful and incapable of handling the article in its entirety? And since you have waited until after I publicly stated that I had no time left to deal with the matter and had to get back to my work, why is it that you ignored those statements just like Wrangler did and want to post me anyway?

    He was incapable of answering me "clear as a bell"? He probably doesn't even know what post I'm referring to and will deny he has never answered anything because that's how oblivious he is to other people's posts. Are you?
     
  16. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Let me clarify a little more. Belief that at some time 'in eternity' the Son came forth from His Father, thus becoming a son in the highest sense, does not mean He isn't eternal. As a Son of God He inherited all things that the Father is. With God He does all things to perfection. Thus Christ was the 'express image' of the Father. A perfect reproduction if you like, thus equal in glory, honor, authority and power. Equal in all things except rank. That makes the Son, God. In fact it's the only thing that makes the Son God. It's the greatest evidence to His deity, which is why the apostle John went to such great pains to teach it in his gospel and letters.
    Jesus inherited His Father's life. The same life. Eternal. And immortal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2021
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  17. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    ♫Holy, holy,♫
    ♫Is what the angels sing,♫
    ♫And I expect to help them♫
    ♫make the courts of Heaven ring♫
    ♫But when I sing salvation's story♫
    ♫They will fold their wings♫
    ♫For angels never felt the joy♫
    ♫That our salvation brings♫
     
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  18. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    New International Version
    But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    New Living Translation
    But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.

    English Standard Version
    But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    Berean Study Bible
    But about the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    Berean Literal Bible
    But unto the Son: "Your throne, O God, is to the age of the age, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    King James Bible
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    New King James Version
    But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    New American Standard Bible
    But regarding the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    NASB 1995
    But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    NASB 1977
    But of the Son He says, “THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    Amplified Bible
    But about the Son [the Father says to Him], “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF [absolute] RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    Christian Standard Bible
    but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    American Standard Version
    but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    But concerning The Son, he said, “Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.”

    Contemporary English Version
    But God says about his Son, "You are God, and you will rule as King forever! Your royal power brings about justice.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    English Revised Version
    but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Good News Translation
    About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    But God said about his Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice.

    International Standard Version
    But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.

    Literal Standard Version
    but to the Son: “Your throne, O God, [is] agelong and continuous; A scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of Your kingdom;

    NET Bible
    but of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

    New Heart English Bible
    But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your Kingdom.

    Weymouth New Testament
    But of His Son, He says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and for ever, and the sceptre of Thy Kingdom is a sceptre of absolute justice.

    World English Bible
    But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;
     
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  19. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Love that hymn. Makes me long to get back to fellowship.
     
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  20. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Those are from Hebrews, and Paul is quoting David...
    New International Version
    Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    New Living Translation
    Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.

    English Standard Version
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

    Berean Study Bible
    Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    King James Bible
    Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

    New King James Version
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    New American Standard Bible
    Your throne, God, is forever and ever; The scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    NASB 1995
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    NASB 1977
    Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.

    Amplified Bible
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    Christian Standard Bible
    Your throne, God, is forever and ever; the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Your throne, God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    American Standard Version
    Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Palm 45:6
     
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