Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

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Ferris Bueller

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Because you apparently do not understand what sovereignty means. It means He is in control, not of puppets.
Predestination and God's sovereignty is advanced theology - not everyone gets it.
I understand God's sovereignty. He acts sovereignly to water or not water ground that will or will not bring the word of God to fruition. That doesn't mean he purposely designs some soil to bring the word of God to fruition and some to not bring the word of God to fruition. That is an incorrect understanding of predestination in the context Paul talks about it.
 

Ferris Bueller

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There it is again, you are contradicting yourself ..." He does'nt know who will participate, and He does know"
I know Calvinistic predestination beliefs are some of the hardest doctrines to overcome in a person. Trust me, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. You're hearing it that way. That's what Calvinistic thoughts do to people. It makes it hard for them to see anything outside of what they already believe. I'm not being snarky. That's just the way it is.

So, one more try...

God knows ahead of time who will believe His word. What he does not do is purposely design one person to believe His word and design another person to not believe His word. That's not what is predestined. What is predestined is what those who will believe are destined to become.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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In the context Paul talks about it, predestination involves what believers will participate in. So it's not 'who' is predestined to be a believer, but 'what' is predestined for those who choose to believe. Though, surely, God knows ahead of time (because he knows everything) who those people are that will participate in what he has predestined for those who believe.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Ferris Bueller, I think you should take another day off! I like you though, read a lot of your posts in the past and usually agree with you.
You are over your head on this one.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I know Calvinistic predestination beliefs are some of the hardest doctrines to overcome in a person. Trust me, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. You're hearing it that way. That's what Calvinistic thoughts do to people. It makes it hard for them to see anything outside of what they already believe. I'm not being snarky. That's just the way it is.
I am NOT a Calvinist. So now you are misrepresenting my view as if I was a Calvinist.
 

Ferris Bueller

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You don't know what you are talking about.
Ferris Bueller, I think you should take another day off! I like you though, read a lot of your posts in the past and usually agree with you.
You are over your head on this one.
I have no beef against you, either. It's just that you're not 'hearing' what I'm saying. It's 'what' is predestined for people who believe, not 'who' is predestined to believe.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I am NOT a Calvinist. So now you are misrepresenting my view as if I was a Calvinist.
I know you're not Calvinist. But you don't seem to realize that predestination as you are defining it is a Calvinist theology, just as what I am saying predestination means is an Arminian belief, even though I'm not Arminian.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Now what does Paul says about faith in connection to the law? How does faith in Christ establishes the law?
↓↓↓
Maybe this will help understand what it means to establish the law...

"Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love. For he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." Romans 13:8

"All that matters is faith, expressed through love." Galatians 5:6
Faith expressed through the 'keeping' of the law. Faith 'keeps' the law.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Well there is no doubt that the Jews live and still practice Judaism.
There are sects of Judaism that are more orthodox. But still you cannot practice the Mosaic Law today. As a whole they do not sacrifice animal...etc
Of course. But that's not what establishing/upholding the law means. It does not mean a literal, to the letter of the law keeping of the law. Christ's fulfillment of the law makes it so it is not necessary to literally worship according to the Mosaic cycle of Festivals and Sabbaths anymore. Faith secures one time for all time what those literal commands sought to secure and so makes the literal fulfillment of those worship laws obsolete and unnecessary now. So the law is not cast away by the new way of faith as many Christians believe. It is fulfilled by the new way of faith.
 

Ferris Bueller

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The Old Testament referred to the Mosaic Law as forever.
And so the requirements of the law are still forever. For example, to this day God still requires men to satisfy His lawful requirement for a Passover Lamb. It's just that Christ is the fulfillment of that everlasting law now, not Moses' literal lamb.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Christ said it would not change until all things are fulfilled. Now what does all things fulfilled mean? Not looking for an answer to that because it is a matter of perspective.
And since the law has changed we know the fulfillment has occurred. For example, Christ met/satisfied/fulfilled the lawful requirement for a Passover Sacrifice, and since that fulfillment has occurred the law has changed—we don't have to literally sacrifice a lamb anymore, and yet from God's perspective, the one that counts, the law of Passover is established/upheld, not cast down and broken. From man's perspective, it looks like we're breaking that law by not literally keeping it.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Either way....it does not apply to Christians....we are in a different covenant and you do not want to try to mix them, it does not work.
You're not mixing the old and the new as long as you're not doing something in the law in order to be justified.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Now what does Paul says about faith in connection to the law? How does faith in Christ establishes the law?
↓↓↓
Ferris Bueller said:
Maybe this will help understand what it means to establish the law...

"Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love. For he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." Romans 13:8

"All that matters is faith, expressed through love." Galatians 5:6
Faith expressed through the 'keeping' of the law. Faith 'keeps' the law.

It seems to me that you equate “keeping the law” with “establish the law”. They don’t equate. It seems we do have a different understanding on that.

Faith in Christ establishes the law. That is what Paul said.

You say on the other hand that faith keeps the law. Please explain.

Tong
R4335
 

Ferris Bueller

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It seems to me that you equate “keeping the law” with “establish the law”. They don’t equate. It seems we do have a different understanding on that.

Faith in Christ establishes the law. That is what Paul said.

You say on the other hand that faith keeps the law. Please explain.
I'm making it clear that I am NOT doing that! Keeping the law means observing it to the letter of the law. Upholding/establishing/fulfilling it does not. That's why I put 'keep' in quotes when talking about upholding the law. Paul is not saying faith keeps the letter of the law. Faith satisfies the demands of the law, whether that be literally or not. You have to literally do what the law says to keep it. You do not need to literally do what the law says to do to uphold it.
 

Grailhunter

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Because you apparently do not understand what sovereignty means.

Haa haa you so funny.
I fully understand what sovereignty means. So that we are on the same page...."supreme power or authority." Now just because supreme power and authority would corrupt man....that does not mean it would corrupt God. You are still proposing that "just because" he had the power He would use it to do evil.
 

Grailhunter

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But that's not what establishing/upholding the law means. It does not mean a literal, to the letter of the law keeping of the law.

I know they love to get into this....we are not really keeping the Law. Faith satisfies the demands of the Law....the demands of the Law, is that you keep all 613 Mosaic Laws and if you break one, you break them all. You keep talking like this and you are going to be a democrat politician. We respect the U.S. Constitution but we do not let it hinder us as we move the country to communism....

I am going to tell the truth.....I am going to be a straight shooter.....not going to mince words....I am going to be direct. No part of the Mosaic Law is part of my religious beliefs. Yes the most basic and elementary moral codes of the Law....are of course included in the vastly superiors moral codes of Christ. That has nothing to do with Christianity....1,2,3 in Judaism is 1,2,3 in Christianity and that is the level that they relate. The intent of the Mosaic Law and Christ's Law's are not the same. The spirit of the Mosaic Laws and Christ's laws are not the same. In many ways they are polar opposites. Christ's ministry did not bring about the knowledge of sin. Christ ministry was not a ministry of death. Christ's ministry is not a curse. Christ ministry did not fail....the law failed because it saved no one.
 
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Grailhunter

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And so the requirements of the law are still forever. For example, to this day God still requires men to satisfy His lawful requirement for a Passover Lamb. It's just that Christ is the fulfillment of that everlasting law now, not Moses' literal lamb.
See post 455
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
It seems to me that you equate “keeping the law” with “establish the law”. They don’t equate. It seems we do have a different understanding on that.

Faith in Christ establishes the law. That is what Paul said.

You say on the other hand that faith keeps the law. Please explain.

I'm making it clear that I am NOT doing that! Keeping the law means observing it to the letter of the law. Upholding/establishing/fulfilling it does not. That's why I put 'keep' in quotes when talking about upholding the law. Paul is not saying faith keeps the letter of the law. Faith satisfies the demands of the law, whether that be literally or not. You have to literally do what the law says to keep it. You do not need to literally do what the law says to do to uphold it.

<<<upholding/establishing/fulfilling it does not.>>>

That to me is you making upholding/establishing = fulfilling. And this is what I was commenting on as being not so.

Paul said “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”.

The Greek word translated “we establish” is “histanomen”. If one check out what the Greek “histémi” means, it means cause to stand, establish, hold up. It does not mean to fulfill nor to keep. There is a Greek word for fulfill and for keep.


Tong
R4336
 

Grailhunter

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You're not mixing the old and the new as long as you're not doing something in the law in order to be justified.

Oh no! What you are doing is betraying Christ. You are disobeying Christ. You cannot mix the Covenants and Christ explained that. There is nothing outside of Christ's Words that we need to do. It is the "to do" that gets you in trouble. The "works" of the Law that is what Paul spoke against....that is what Paul struggled against during his ministry. The Judaizer wanted Christian "to do" the Law. And Paul fought them tooth and nail. Read the outcome of the council in Jerusalem. Those "to does" were the only things agreed upon.
If you love them so much....convert to Judaism. Then you will have 613 Laws to deal with. Mazel tov!
 
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