I have a question that remains unanswered:

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keithr

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I was only addressing the heresy that the Eternal Son of God was created by God. There is not one Scripture that states this.
So why were you addressing that in reply to my post about God removing His Spirit from Jesus on the cross? You're just confusing everybody and wasting everybody's time (especially mine).

What specific question or statement are seeking to make concerning "Jesus the Christ on the cross".
We were discussing whether or not Jesus had God's Holy Spirit upon/in him from his birth, or from his baptism. I had said:
So God's Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at Jesus' baptism, and stayed with him until his crucifixion, when at "About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). With the sins of all mankind placed on Jesus when he was on the cross, at that point God withdrew His Spirit.
 

Robert Gwin

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With Elohim it does, for the Scripture declares it: Let US make man in OUR Image according to OUR Likeness

Stay with the WORD who was God in the beginning and pray to the WORD which became flesh and HIS Glory was seen.
The Glory of the only begotten Son of God who is full of Grace and Truth.
The WORD is Eternal LIFE which no man can receive from the Father, but only through the Son.

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me.
I give them eternal life
, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

How are they one sir?
 

theefaith

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Jesus was never fully divine and fully man at the same time. When he was a man he was merely a man, just like us - no more and no less - except that he was not born with a sinful nature:

Romans 8:3) ... God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;

His flesh was in the "likeness" of sinful flesh, but it was not sinful. That was because his Father was God - God's Holy Spirit was the father, not a sinful flesh man, so Jesus did not inherit the sinful nature - he was like Adam before he had sinned. He had to be like Adam, and remain sinless, otherwise the sacrifice of his perfect human life would not have been an acceptable substitute for Adam's death.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (WEB): So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

so blessed Mary ever virgin on the mother of our salvation

The teaching about the person of Jesus is traditionally called the hypostatic union. This term developed in the early Church, whereby the word “hypostatic” was used officially at the Council of Chalcedon as a way to express the union of Jesus’ two natures. Simply put, it means that in the Person of Jesus are two natures — divinity and humanity — in complete unity without mixture, change, division or separation, the holy apostolic Council of Chalcedon!

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 

theefaith

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You should know better than to quote probably the most infamous spurious verse in the Bible - which is acknowledged to have been a much later addition. It should be (WEB):

7) For there are three who testify:
8) the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.​

As the Cambridge Bible notes says:
For there are three that bear record in heaven] If there is one thing that is certain in textual criticism, it is that this famous passage is not genuine. The Revisers have only performed an imperative duty in excluding it from both text and margin. External and internal evidence are alike overwhelmingly against the passage. ... But there are three facts, which every one should know, and which alone are enough to show that the words are an interpolation. (1) They are not found in a single Greek MS. earlier than the fourteenth century. (2) Not one of the Greek or Latin Fathers who conducted the controversies about the doctrine of the Trinity in the third, fourth, and first half of the fifth centuries ever quotes the words. (3) The words occur first towards the end of the fifth century in Latin, and are found in no other language until the fourteenth century. The only words which are genuine in this verse are, For there are three that bear record, or more accurately, For those who bear witness are three: ‘three’ is the predicate.​

I like the Living Bible's interpretation:

5) But who could possibly fight and win this battle except by believing that Jesus is truly the Son of God?
6,8) And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptised, and again as he was facing death – yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death. And the Holy Spirit, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism, and the voice before he died. And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
9) We believe men who witness in our courts, and so surely we can believe whatever God declares. And God declares that Jesus is his Son.
10) All who believe this know in their hearts that it is true. If anyone doesn’t believe this, he is actually calling God a liar because he doesn’t believe what God has said about his Son.

All scripture is inspired etc.
 

theefaith

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You also believe “faith alone” so Mk 16:16 is not scripture either??

but then claim the Bible alone!!!

what hypocrisy!
 
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David in NJ

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How are they one sir?

See the words in Bold in my post - this is the beginning of understanding.

The Lord Jesus Christ said that it was crucial unto Salvation that we believe His words - absolute must do to be Saved.

For all of us - no one is exempt.

Make straight the paths of the Lord.
 

Wrangler

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not Jesus Christ

he is true God (fully God)
He is true man (fully man)

Yes, Jesus Christ, only man. "Christ" means Anointed. This language usage means he was the passive object acted on by one doing the Anointing. Jesus is chosen by God.


He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (Voice)
 

theefaith

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Yes, Jesus Christ, only man. "Christ" means Anointed. This language usage means he was the passive object acted on by one doing the Anointing. Jesus is chosen by God.


He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (Voice)


The teaching about the person of Jesus is traditionally called the hypostatic union. This term developed in the early Church, whereby the word “hypostatic” was used officially at the Council of Chalcedon as a way to express the union of Jesus’ two natures. Simply put, it means that in the Person of Jesus are two natures — divinity and humanity — in complete unity without mixture, change, division or separation, the holy apostolic Council of Chalcedon!

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
 

theefaith

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No. The trinity is an inherently contradictory concept not found in Scripture.

Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
 

theefaith

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No. The trinity is an inherently contradictory concept not found in Scripture.

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

Origen
“For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist” (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

“For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages” (ibid.).

Hippolytus
“The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Pope Dionysius
“Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate” (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria 1 [A.D. 262]).

“Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd” (ibid., 1–2).

“Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. ‘For,’ he says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’” (ibid., 3).

Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Sechnall of Ireland
“Hymns, with Revelation and the Psalms of God [Patrick] sings, and does expound the same for the edifying of God’s people. This law he holds in the Trinity of the sacred Name and teaches one being in three persons” (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 22 [A.D. 444]).

Patrick of Ireland
“I bind to myself today the strong power of an invocation of the Trinity—the faith of the Trinity in unity, the Creator of the universe” (The Breastplate of St. Patrick 1 [A.D. 447]).

“[T]here is no other God, nor has there been heretofore, nor will there be hereafter, except God the Father unbegotten, without beginning, from whom is all beginning, upholding all things, as we say, and his Son Jesus Christ, whom we likewise to confess to have always been with the Father—before the world’s beginning. . . . Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe . . . and who has poured out on us abundantly the Holy Spirit . . . whom we confess and adore as one God in the Trinity of the sacred Name” (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).

Augustine
“All the Catholic interpreters of the divine books of the Old and New Testaments whom I have been able to read, who wrote before me about the Trinity, which is God, intended to teach in accord with the Scriptures that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one and the same substance constituting a divine unity with an inseparable equality; and therefore there are not three gods but one God, although the Father begot the Son, and therefore he who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, himself, too, coequal to the Father and to the Son and belonging to the unity of the Trinity” (The Trinity1:4:7 [A.D. 408]).

Fulgence of Ruspe
“See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in Person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard he says: ‘The Father and I, we are one’ (John 10:30). He teaches us that one refers to their nature, and we are to their Persons. In like manner it is said: ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and these three are one’ (1 John 5:7)” (The Trinity 4:1–2 [c. A.D. 515]).

“But in the one true God and Trinity it is naturally true not only that God is one but also that he is a Trinity, for the reason that the true God himself is a Trinity of Persons and one in nature. Through this natural unity the whole Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the whole Holy Spirit, too, is in the Father and in the Son. None of these is outside any of the others; because no one of them precedes any other of them in eternity or exceeds any other in greatness, or is superior to any other in power” (The Rule of Faith 4 [c. A.D. 523).






1 jn 2: 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

God is immutable / unchangeable!

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
 

David in NJ

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And to prove my point, you don’t cite Scripture ...

wrangler, i agree with you in what you say - it must be in Scripture or it's false.

So let us look at what Scripture says.
Genesis 1:26 "Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness"

Seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened, ask and it will be given.

Seek the Lord Jesus Christ that you may know Him and ask Him to grant to you Grace and understanding.

Good Nite
 

keithr

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matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Am I the only person who thinks it strange that Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 implies that the virgin mother shall call Jesus Immanuel, whereas there is no verse in the New Testament that records anyone ever calling Jesus Immanuel? The angel told Mary and Joseph to call the child Jehoshua (Jesus), which means 'The salvation of Jehovah'.

so blessed Mary ever virgin on the mother of our salvation
I don't know what that means, but Mary went on to have other children, so she didn't remain a virgin.

The teaching about the person of Jesus is traditionally called the hypostatic union. This term developed in the early Church, whereby the word “hypostatic” was used officially at the Council of Chalcedon as a way to express the union of Jesus’ two natures.
Yep. A teaching and tradition of men, not of God.
 

n2thelight

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Many people teach that Jesus is God, fact is he either is or isn't. So my question is, if Jesus is God then did he lie in these verses?:
Mr 10:40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared

Mr 13:32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I do not believe Jesus lied, and likely you do not either, so how does one who believes Jesus is God, explain this?

Mark 10:40 "But to sit on My right hand and on My left hand is not Mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared."

Jesus is getting into what Ezekiel 44 is all about, "already prepared" means that those that will be in their positions as the Zadok had already been chosen for their positions, from the earth age that was. From before the foundations of this earth age, they were judged, and by predestination given their positions. Ezekiel 44 has to do with the Millennium period, that period that starts with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, and ends one thousand years later at the judgment seat of the great white throne. At that time people are allotted their positions and designated areas for that kingdom of Christ age. It wasn't His to give because He had already given it before. Ezekiel 44:9-16 lets us know exactly who will be by Jesus side, doing service for Him during that thousand year period.

Ezekiel 44:15 "But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God."

Ezekiel 44:16 "They [the Zadok] shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge."
 

keithr

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All scripture is inspired etc.
But the later addition of 1 John 5:7 is not Scripture! If I was to write in your Bible, "Jesus was a lizard", would you believe it? Somebody inserted words into 1 John 5:7 hundreds of years after John wrote it - it is not Scripture, as most Bible translations acknowledge. It has been known for over 100 years that this verse is spurious.

(1Jn 5:7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(1Jn 5:8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Only the words in bold are in the original manuscripts. From an article over 100 years old:

they are not in any manuscript of earlier date than the seventh century and not in the Revised Version; 112 of the oldest manuscripts do not give them; King James translators had only eight manuscripts, none antedating the tenth century, whereas we now have 700, two of which date from 350 AD.​