Paul

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MatthewG

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Mark,

All of the Bible is true. However it depends on if you are gonna take every single part of it literally or not, I believe becomes the discernment.

Consider should we actually pluck out our eyes and cut our hands off it is sins?

Consider Jesus saying hate your mother, father, brother sister.

Consider some of the language as well as is this pertaining to the Jews or the Gentiles?

that is the most important part when it comes down to the Bible, to me Marks.

Like I said otherwise many people which it’s fine they believe the last days are now when they are back then, then you got people who moan and complain between non-trinity or trinity doctrines, is one saved by grace or through faith or is it simply just confessing Jesus name and that is you are good for life?

There has to be some type of substance that holds everything together and that is the context and the content.

Some people even believe God doesn’t get his desires when it talks about the Lord desires that none shall perish, or that all shall confess Jesus is the Lord even in heaven, earth, and under the earth, some people believe God doesn’t love everyone and he hates some… yet God is not a respecter of persons.

These are the things one must go and figure out by checking the Bible when people are bringing up claims and what not.

Just like eternal or age long punishment of not accept the truth of God in the gospel of Christ when you have been given it and live your life without God in it though they may do well they suffer loss here in this life, and in the afterlife of not being with God outside of the kingdom.

Please consider all of these things my friend,
With love,
Matthew G.
 

Bob Estey

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My discernment is that all the Bible is the Word of God, with one part where the writer plainly states that this part is from him. Otherwise, as I've developed in my Christian life, this is what I've come to know.

Why do you think otherwise? What is it about certain parts of the Bible that lead you to think they are not true? And which parts?

Much love!
Who taught you that all the Bible is the Word of God? How did you verify that was true?
 

marks

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Who taught you that all the Bible is the Word of God? How did you verify that was true?
I discern it to be true. Isn't that what you recommend?

What parts do you discern to not be God's Word?

Much love!
 
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marks

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Consider should we actually pluck out our eyes and cut our hands off it is sins?
Jesus said, If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it away. Now, is it the hand that causes us to sin? What does cause us to sin? What should be cut away from us? Our flesh?

I think we can take the Scriptures with full seriousness, literal within the normal understanding of language. But sometimes we have to think it through a bit.

Much love!
 

marks

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All of the Bible is true. However it depends on if you are gonna take every single part of it literally or not, I believe becomes the discernment.
Bob, if I'm understanding correctly, is saying some of the Bible is from man and not God, and is not therefore God's Word, and you just have to have discernment to know which is and which isn't.

Much love!
 

Bruce Atkinson

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hmm, a v comes to mind that could be interpreted just like that, imo…


are you sure? We dont prosecute those who cannot participate in their own defense right now, and we even have jury nullification for those who can, yes?

Anybody here ever get a speeding ticket for going 1mile over the speed limit?

Ummmm....we're talking about the Grace of God here, not a reasonable judge following the law or police officer.
 

Bruce Atkinson

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Who taught you that all the Bible is the Word of God? How did you verify that was true?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

One cannot pick and choose what to believe or not believe in the Bible. Either it's all true or you might as well toss the Bible in the trash. It all comes down to 'rightly dividing' Gods' Word.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 
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Bruce Atkinson

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why do you connect those two, i gotta ask?
im just not finding that connection anywhere in Scripture, wadr
we are freed from the law of sin and death, and judged by our works, near as i can tell?

Why separate law and grace? That’s a very important question.

Consider the following two portions of scripture – one by Paul and the other by James:

Ephesianans 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:14-18 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Some will claim that the Bible contradicts itself and may even use the above as ‘proof’. Here’s where ‘rightly dividing’Gods’ Word makes all the difference in the world.

When studying scripture, one should always ask: Who is speaking or writing? To whom are they speaking or writing? and What are the circumstances?

Paul is Gods’ chosen apostle to the Gentiles, so he writes to Gentiles only (he writes to Jews in Hebrews). It is Paul alone that speaks of salvation by grace through faith. So, in the age of grace that Paul was directly taught by Jesus while he spent 3 years in the desert, Paul can speak authoritatively about salvation through grace alone, without works.

Contrast that with James, the brother of Jesus, and still following all of the law, going to the temple, making sacrifices, etc, as required by the law. For what it’s worth, various Bible commentary authors believe the Book of James was the first book of the New Testament to be written, probably not long after Jesus’ ascension. In James 1:1, he states he is writing specifically to the 12 tribes - Jews scattered by the likes of Saul (later Paul) and others that persecuted those Jews that believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. There are no Gentiles in his letter nor is there any discussion of Jesus’ death for our sins as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. James clearly shows in chapter 2 that works are required to clearly demonstrate that one is faithful and following the law. It’s very clear that all Jews understand the necessity of faith plus works (following the law) for salvation.

Bottom line, Christians are gentiles, not Jews. (Yes, I personally know several saved Jews. Rabbi Kurt Schnieder on TV is, too! They CAN be saved just like we are) Therefore, we should follow Pauls’ writing to Gentiles and not the writings to Jews.

WHOA!!!! JUST A MINUTE!!!

What about the teachings of Jesus? Am I ‘throwing out’ the 4 Gospels as well as the rest of the New Testament not written by Paul? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Paul specifically addresses this in Romans 15:4

Romans 15:4 (KJV)
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

That statement from Paul tells us to learn from the Old Testament and the 4 Gospels. Don't forget the ‘Jewish’ epistles James-Jude, and, of course, Revelation are written to Jews. We are to learn from them as well. But are we ‘locked in’ to follow everything there ‘to the letter’? No.

For example, should we ignore the Great Commission?

Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Of course not! Jesus is talking to the disciples only and telling them specifically to go into the world. Note, too, there is nothing in what Jesus told them that indicates that He died for the sins of the world. Nor did Jesus -ever- tell them He will die for their sins. They are to teach Jews only that He is the promised Messiah and has risen from the dead.

As an aside, many believe that being baptised is what makes one saved and filled with the Holy Ghost at the same time. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Water is water. It cannot wash away sin, only dirt. Philip and the Eunuch clarifies this, that faith that Jesus is the Christ preceeds baptism, which is only a public proclamation of ones’ faith.

Acts 8:26 (KJV)
26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Philip makes it abundantly clear in verse 37 and the Eunuch confirms it, faith that Jesus is the Son of God (the Messiah) comes before baptism.

I would be remiss if I did not note that some translations of the Bible omit verse 37, effectively removing the heart of entire story by removing faith requirement! Make your own choice of which Bible version you read. They are not ‘all the same’.

Getting back to the Great Commission, Jesus is talking to the apostles, not all Jews in general. By the way…Jesus even stated that He has come to save the lost sheep of Israel…not Gentiles.

Matthew 15:24 (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus only went to 2.5 Gentiles in his ministry – the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15, the Roman Centurion in Matthew 8, and the Samaritan woman (half Gentile) at the well in John 4.

Most, if not all Christian churches today believe that each and every one of us are to be missionaries and quote the Great Commission. But Paul states clearly that we do not all have the same calling:

1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV)
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Again, rightly dividing the Word of God makes all the difference! Separating law and grace is part of that.
 
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bbyrd009

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tl;dr btw
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast
doesnt address the q

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works
doesnt address the q

etc
ty though ok
your refs are of grace contrasted with works, not law? how come?
i guess the real question might be
“are all works ‘of the law?’”
 
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Bruce Atkinson

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tl;dr btw
doesnt address the q

doesnt address the q

etc
ty though ok
your refs are of grace contrasted with works, not law? how come?
i guess the real question might be
“are all works ‘of the law?’”

I'm not clear as to what your question(s) were in the first place. Please elaborate. I'm a senior citizen with some cognitive decline...

To those under the law, yes, works are of the law...eating only Kosher food, animal sacrifices for sin (not since 70 AD, though), observing the sabbath, tithing, ritual cleansing when one has become unclean, etc. Jews are under the law.

But Gentiles willingly put themselves under the laws and teachings of their churches as well...do this, not that, unconditionally attend services, follow the 10 Commandments, pray pre-written prayers, etc. No, I'm not saying we can go out and willfully break the 10 commandments. But as true believers, it is the indwelling Holy Spirit that leads us. We therefore have no desire whatsoever to break the 10 commandments, or to sin against God in any way. But we still fail daily, and can stay 'right with God' through confession of our sins to Him alone.

Does helping little old ladies across the street or donating ones' time, money and talents to church count as 'under the law'? No....but....The difference is whether they are done for some kind of expected 'gain' (physical, mental, financial, or to 'prove' ones' faith per James) or doing them in the spirit as a result of personal salvation? In other words, are ones' works done because 'they are supposed to do them' or because one is led and enabled by the spirit to perform them? While not a Jew through birth or later choice, our motivation behind our works makes all the difference.
 
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Bob Estey

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I discern it to be true. Isn't that what you recommend?

What parts do you discern to not be God's Word?

Much love!
I have to question if God told Paul to tell us that women shouldn't speak in church. I question if God told him to tell us that God put our political leaders in place and therefore should be obeyed. Jesus said the great and first commandment is to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, but Paul said the one commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. Paul was a great man who accomplished much, and I have learned much from him, but he certainly wasn't perfect.
 

Bob Estey

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2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

One cannot pick and choose what to believe or not believe in the Bible. Either it's all true or you might as well toss the Bible in the trash. It all comes down to 'rightly dividing' Gods' Word.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Does it seem odd that Paul would say of himself that his writings are "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"?
 

MatthewG

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I have to question if God told Paul to tell us that women shouldn't speak in church. I question if God told him to tell us that God put our political leaders in place and therefore should be obeyed. Jesus said the great and first commandment is to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, but Paul said the one commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. Paul was a great man who accomplished much, and I have learned much from him, but he certainly wasn't perfect.

Good points my brother in Christ,

I believe women played a important role in Jesus ministry personally, and believe that they tend to be more attentive to details than us men are. Mary Magdalene was the first one at the tomb, and witness the resurrection and went and ran back to tell the disciples who were sleeping in their cots, about the miracle of the resurrection of the Messiah. They didn’t believe the reports of course at first.
 
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amadeus

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I discern it to be true. Isn't that what you recommend?

What parts do you discern to not be God's Word?

Much love!
Perhaps without the quickening Spirit working in us... none of it is God's Word! God's Word is Alive, so then how can the Bible unopened and unread, or opened and read but not understood, be the Word of God?
 
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marks

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I have to question if God told Paul to tell us that women shouldn't speak in church. I question if God told him to tell us that God put our political leaders in place and therefore should be obeyed. Jesus said the great and first commandment is to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls, but Paul said the one commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. Paul was a great man who accomplished much, and I have learned much from him, but he certainly wasn't perfect.
So then in some cases, you are thinking that one passage negates another, so you need to decide which to go with. And in other cases, it just seems too outlandish to be right.

One example is, do we love God first, or love others first? And another example is, Obey your rulers, even when they are wicked??

Am I understanding you correctly?

Personally, I find that when I harmonize all the passages, they show me a cohesive whole, where I don't find I need to discount or overlook any.

If you want to get into specifics, pick out a passage and quote it, and tell me how it's not God's Word, how you know that. I'd be interested!

Much love!
 

MatthewG

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Perhaps without the quickening Spirit working in us... none of it is God's Word! God's Word is Alive, so then how can the Bible unopened and unread, or opened and read but not understood, be the Word of God?

Good point brother! That is where discernment comes in. In another forum I had wrote something about my experiences will share here.

With everyone to read (believe it’s helpful) especially if people are fighting.

There is only one righteousness a person can have imputed them that is having faith in the gospel of Christ; Jesus; death, burial, and resurrection.

Living by the spirit normally you won’t desire to fight for your right to be have dominion over another persons faith.

“Not that we Lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭1:24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Even if you disagree with. It’s healthy to have conversations and ask questions, like where did you learn that from was it something taught to you when you were younger? How did you come up with that notion? Have you ever considered this view instead?

I know in my own life I been in out of churches normally going to just see others there not really the message itself and never had to much of a problem except two times.

One time I got up during a mans preaching he said Talking about Jesus will have others come to you to hear about him. Standing up from the pew I said “yeah and sometimes it makes people not want nothing to do with you either” and walked out.

Another time I spoke out at a different place and had to talk the man who owned the church itself. It was good to see him two Wednesdays now ago, and all there at that church.

Self-righteousness and especially saying “well the Bible says so” doesn’t really amount up to much if one doesn’t consider the contents and context of the bible.

If you are someone who reading the Bible and it makes you start to hate people, or it makes you wanna use the Bible as a weapon in making little cuts and slits into the persons heart in where you beat each other down.

My suggestion to reconsider everything you learned and go back to the one who first loved us; enough to sacrifice himself so that all people can have access to God.
 
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Bob Estey

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So then in some cases, you are thinking that one passage negates another, so you need to decide which to go with. And in other cases, it just seems too outlandish to be right.

One example is, do we love God first, or love others first? And another example is, Obey your rulers, even when they are wicked??

Am I understanding you correctly?

Personally, I find that when I harmonize all the passages, they show me a cohesive whole, where I don't find I need to discount or overlook any.

If you want to get into specifics, pick out a passage and quote it, and tell me how it's not God's Word, how you know that. I'd be interested!

Much love!
If you look at Paul's writings like a pastor's sermons, you can learn from him without worrying about if he was right 100% of the time. Jesus and God are quoted a lot in the Bible, and you know they are right 100% of the time, if you're looking to hang your hat on something. So often, though, people ignore the teachings of God and Jesus, maybe because they do require a measure of discipline on our parts.
 
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