Silly question, but a thought provoking one:

[amadeus]

@Grailhunter I am not going to post scriptures for all of my answers or opinions or beliefs or conclusions because it would take more time and often I do not remember where something is even though I am certain it is in the Bible. Please bear with me on that...

... People that are paying attention maybe asking....
How can one God beget Himself? How does that work?
God the Father loves His Son. Does God the Father love Himself?

First question might be: What is God? Can God make another or is that something that He cannot do? What does Jesus mean here?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

What does the psalmist mean here?

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

How could they limit an all powerful God other than by holding Him to His own Word... even though they hurt themselves by doing it.

To simplify your understanding of where I am even though my beliefs quite often not ATs [Absolute Truths =essential truths]. I lean toward a Duality rather than a Trinity, a Diune rather than a Triune... but perhaps not that either. Then also Holy Spirit as a separate being or entity from the Father.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....How does that work?

What is a son to men? What is the Son/son to God?
In both cases something separate from the father, but nevertheless from the father.

I see the relationship of Jesus to his Father as the reality versus the type or shadow seen in Joseph and Pharaoh:

Ge 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

How much of Himself is the Father able to give to another?

My wife has three medical appointment today. Two are in our apartment and one at a clinic so I am uncertain how much of this I will get done today.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Where is that in Scripture?

luke 10:16
1 john 2:22-23
Matthew 10:31-33
Luke 12:9

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

No. Neither WCF nor 1 John 5:7 state the doctrine of the trinity. In case you don't know, 1 john 5:7 is one of the most famous trinitarian corruptions of Scripture. Look into it.

There is NO corruption of the scriptures. And yes, the WCF does indeed address the Trinity. you are a fool. And you are not saved as you have denied Jesus is God. You are a wolf. You are blocked. All of the anti christ are blocked.

 

[amadeus]

apparently frontal lobes more or less require it. Thinking takes a lot of energy, apparently.

You definitely have that right!

 

[Grailhunter]

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Don't take the time to quote scriptures...I think we got that.
All things are possible, somethings are not probable.

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

How could they limit an all powerful God other than by holding Him to His own Word... even though they hurt themselves by doing it.

וַיָּשׁ֣וּבוּ וַיְנַסּ֣וּ אֵ֑ל וּקְד֖וֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֣ל הִתְוֽוּ׃
Again and again they tested God, “set a limit to.” the Holy One of Israel. Tanakh notes

And again and again they tempted God, And pained the Holy One of Israel. NASB

This one is not tough because the scripture is in context. Free-will can hinder God's intent. They should have had faith in Yahweh. They should have revered Him. They should have done what they were told. Because they did not, all the good things He wanted to do, He did not. Every preacher knows this one. You cannot control the beliefs in the pews.

I lean toward a Duality rather than a Trinity, a Diune rather than a Triune...

I have run acrossed this before. There are a couple things that can cause people to come this conclusion. One of the causes is due to the fact that the name of the third member was not revealed in the Bible and because they referred to the third member as a Spirit or a Ghost, it can leave people with the impression that the third member is very different than the other two....a Spirit. And then for those that want to place Yeshua and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament then they get the third member confused with Yahwah's Holy Spirit. When in actuality Yeshua and the Holy Spirit have Holy Spirits.

What is a son to men? What is the Son/son to God?
In both cases something separate from the father, but nevertheless from the father.

I see the relationship of Jesus to his Father as the reality versus the type or shadow seen in Joseph and Pharaoh:

Ge 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

How much of Himself is the Father able to give to another?

Yahweh and Yeshua are task with us understanding them at their level ~. So they try to keep it simple. Yahweh describes Himself in different ways in the OT but as a Father to Israel. This is a broad topic but the relationship between Yahweh and Israel was a lot different than the relationship Pagans had with their gods.
Now Yahweh had power over the wombs, that is demonstrated in the Old and New Testament. But impregnating a woman so as to conceive a Son of God. That is different and I take it in the literal sense. I believe Yeshua was the real Son of God. It is important to the basic Christian that Yeshua is the Son of God, not a zap. If so Yeshua is nothing special and God could have zapped a million of them.

 

[FHII]

Forgive me for not reading all the responses as I am coming in late. It is a thought provoking question, but silly? Maybe. Its an ignorant question for sure, but then again most questions are born out of ignorance. By the way, "ignorant" it not an insult. It simply means to be knowledgeable.

Young Billy has a lot of things right (i assume he's young): 1. God did send himself down; 2. He became his own son; 3. He did need to be convinced.

Overall, he didn't need to do any of that. He could snap his fingers and correct everything. But God had a plan and a reason.

I have no idea how to better present my thoughts other than to make a random list:

1. What Jesus did was the same thing Adam did, but in reverse order. Adam was born a spirit, got a glorified body and then regressed to an earthly body. Jesus was born with an earthly body, resurrected with glorified flesh and went back to a spiritual body known as the Word.

So while God can snap his fingers and make it all good, he chose to reverse the pattern Adam set forth.
2. God doesn't want us to be too comfortable in this life. Why? There is something better and we have to learn how to handle it.

What does he want us to know? I dont know... I have been studying it for 52 years. I won't fully know until I graduate! None of y'all have graduated either... But you are getting there!

3. God knows everything... That's for sure! But he hasn't experienced everything... At least not until 33 AD. Gid knows what we go through having to be in the flesh, but he never experienced it until he did it.

I once got caught in an undertow in the gulf of Mexico.. I almost drowned and was terrified! Do you know how that feels? NO! YOU DON'T! Not unless you have been there or been in a similar situation. And you cannot understand the terror and the gratitude you had for those that helped unless you have been in that situation.

Well... God experienced our travail as he became a man. He can truly say I know what you are going through!

Again, he knows everything! He knew how hard it is. But until he did it himself, he couldn't say he experienced it.

4. He taught us a few things by doing that... He taught us how much we can sacrifice and he taught us that death of our mortal flesh isn't the end.

There is another realm out there that is vastly more powerful and exotic! What Jesus did was just a tease and a preview! And by being in the flesh he showed us what we can do, even when we are in the flesh.

 

[Wrangler]

luke 10:16
1 john 2:22-23
Matthew 10:31-33
Luke 12:9

It is amazing how often trinitarians point to Scripture that does not explicitly teach their doctrine - AS IF it does.

We all understand if you "read" your doctrine into text, anything goes.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is NO corruption of the scriptures. And yes, the WCF does indeed address the Trinity. you are a fool. And you are not saved as you have denied Jesus is God. You are a wolf. You are blocked. All of the anti christ are blocked.

is your right eye offending you? Wrangler seems like a thoughtful enough person, do you think trinity doctrine is really that important? That you would break forum rules? I get that it is for whatever reason a pretty divisive subject, but you gotta admit its also pretty esoteric

 

[bbyrd009]

Don't take the time to quote scriptures...I think we got that.
All things are possible, somethings are not probable.

How could they limit an all powerful God other than by holding Him to His own Word... even though they hurt themselves by doing it.

וַיָּשׁ֣וּבוּ וַיְנַסּ֣וּ אֵ֑ל וּקְד֖וֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֣ל הִתְוֽוּ׃
Again and again they tested God, “set a limit to.” the Holy One of Israel. Tanakh notes

And again and again they tempted God, And pained the Holy One of Israel. NASB

This one is not tough because the scripture is in context. Free-will can hinder God's intent. They should have had faith in Yahweh. They should have revered Him. They should have done what they were told. Because they did not, all the good things He wanted to do, He did not. Every preacher knows this one. You cannot control the beliefs in the pews.



I have run acrossed this before. There are a couple things that can cause people to come this conclusion. One of the causes is due to the fact that the name of the third member was not revealed in the Bible and because they referred to the third member as a Spirit or a Ghost, it can leave people with the impression that the third member is very different than the other two....a Spirit. And then for those that want to place Yeshua and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament then they get the third member confused with Yahwah's Holy Spirit. When in actuality Yeshua and the Holy Spirit have Holy Spirits.



Yahweh and Yeshua are task with us understanding them at their level ~. So they try to keep it simple. Yahweh describes Himself in different ways in the OT but as a Father to Israel. This is a broad topic but the relationship between Yahweh and Israel was a lot different than the relationship Pagans had with their gods.
Now Yahweh had power over the wombs, that is demonstrated in the Old and New Testament. But impregnating a woman so as to conceive a Son of God. That is different and I take it in the literal sense. I believe Yeshua was the real Son of God. It is important to the basic Christian that Yeshua is the Son of God, not a zap. If so Yeshua is nothing special and God could have zapped a million of them.

in that vein it is interesting to me that Joshua (Jesus) was the most common male name at the time, especially considering that we do have several unique names in the Bible; but there are no less than five different “Jesus,” incidentally the same number of roots for “belief,” and “five” being rather obvious allegory

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you hold all doctrine that is not yours to be bad/false theology?

what is eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge after all eh

 

[bbyrd009]

The actual truth according to the Bible is that Jehovah sent His son Jesus to die in our behalf so that we might have life. Jn 3:16

wont hurt to keep an open mind there imo, particularly in light of Scriptures that nullify what you just stated

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

is your right eye offending you? Wrangler seems like a thoughtful enough person, do you think trinity doctrine is really that important? That you would break forum rules? I get that it is for whatever reason a pretty divisive subject, but you gotta admit its also pretty esoteric

yes, the doctrine of the Trinity is THAT important. To deny that Jesus is 100% man, 100% God is blasphemy. There is Sooooooo much bad theology on this forum, it boggles the mind. I’ll break any rule if it means standing up for and defending God. I’d die for Him. He is all that matters. If people hate me for my views, im ok with it. Jesus said people would hate us for sharing the truth because they hated Him first.

 

[APAK]

There is NO corruption of the scriptures. And yes, the WCF does indeed address the Trinity. you are a fool. And you are not saved as you have denied Jesus is God. You are a wolf. You are blocked. All of the anti christ are blocked.

I would reconsider calling Christ the God of creation, as there is only one God and one Father who are the same and also is the only creator. God Almighty, the Father and creator of all, does not role play as many want to believe and play with scripture, for God the Father to become his own Son as well.

And yes, 1 John 5:7 as written in 99% of the translations is corrupted indeed.

To think that there is no (and deliberate) corruption in scripture is very naïve of you, IMO
Just saying.....

 

[amadeus]

@Grailhunter
To simplify your understanding of where I am even though my beliefs quite often not ATs [Absolute Truths =essential truths]. I lean toward a Duality rather than a Trinity, a Diune rather than a Triune... but perhaps not that either. Then also Holy Spirit as a separate being or entity from the Father.

...
I have run acrossed this before. There are a couple things that can cause people to come this conclusion.

Probably most people conclude what their teachers taught them. Trinitarian teachers produce mostly Trinitarian offspring. Oneness Jesus Only teachers produce mostly Oneness Jesus Only Offspring. Unitarian teachers produce mostly Unitarian offspring. JW teachers produce mostly JW offspring... and so on.

How many people with their own particular brand of basics [ATs] move on sincerely seeking and sometimes receiving some of the meat? Can this difference also be a part of the difference I mentioned on another thread in a reply to @David H. between the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ?

Over the years I learned a lot of things through my teachers, but it has been a long since I have sat under any teachers moving into new things...[things of meat?] No one person taught me about a Diune or Dual God.

One of the causes is due to the fact that the name of the third member was not revealed in the Bible and because they referred to the third member as a Spirit or a Ghost, it can leave people with the impression that the third member is very different than the other two....a Spirit. And then for those that want to place Yeshua and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament then they get the third member confused with Yahwah's Holy Spirit. When in actuality Yeshua and the Holy Spirit have Holy Spirits.

Yahweh and Yeshua are task with us understanding them at their level ~. So they try to keep it simple. Yahweh describes Himself in different ways in the OT but as a Father to Israel. This is a broad topic but the relationship between Yahweh and Israel was a lot different than the relationship Pagans had with their gods.
Now Yahweh had power over the wombs, that is demonstrated in the Old and New Testament. But impregnating a woman so as to conceive a Son of God. That is different and I take it in the literal sense. I believe Yeshua was the real Son of God. It is important to the basic Christian that Yeshua is the Son of God, not a zap. If so Yeshua is nothing special and God could have zapped a million of them.

I am glad you have an understanding that satisfies. You understand it that way, but I really do not. There are a few things that I have presented on this forum and others which no one has explained in a way which might lead me to change the way I lean. I keep on asking people also why it is important. I have asked God that.

I see no need for the three to explain, but then one of my questions is, if a Trinity, then why not a Multiplicity?

If Jesus and the Father are equal parts or equal person or whatever, then what was Jesus praying for here with regard to us, to you and me and the other guy?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

Was Jesus praying that each of us would be a equal part of the Godhead, moving from supposedly well beyond oneness or duality or trinity to multiplicity?

I do not believe in a Multiplicity, but for me that prayer for me comes closer to that than it would for a Trinity.

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, the doctrine of the Trinity is THAT important. To deny that Jesus is 100% man, 100% God is blasphemy. There is Sooooooo much bad theology on this forum, it boggles the mind. I’ll break any rule if it means standing up for and defending God. I’d die for Him. He is all that matters. If people hate me for my views, im ok with it. Jesus said people would hate us for sharing the truth because they hated Him first.

so, you are committed to your right hand offending you as well? Will correct theology “save” you, do you think? I suggest that it will not, and we even have vv for that eh.

Not meaning to stop you or sway you or anything, imo that prolly cant be done anyway, but you might contemplate the ending there, for your sake; your pov (“views”) is not what you will be hated for at all i dont think

 

[bbyrd009]

i mean dont get me wrong, being zealous is cool, but are you shooting for “priest” or “levite?” lol

 

[amadeus]

...
How can Christ say, He does the will of the Father if there is one will?

Even so! Did Jesus already have his own will or did he gain a own will when he was born to Mary as a man and then had to allow or cause his will to become the same as Father's? I ask the question but I do not presume to provide more of an answer.

If there is one God, why didn't Christ know the end of time?

Exactly! If Jesus is God, then he must be a lesser God than his Father... or?

Christ did not have the authority to grant James and John's mother's request about the thrones.

Another of those thought provoking questions which for me needs no more answers. God, the Father, had not given Jesus such authority.

...
The unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit, if there is one God, how can you sin against one God more than the other?

I skipped several questions as I don't want your post running through my mind and instigating my insomnia tonight. LOL! I get little enough sleep these days.

To me blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is against God period. It is a willful action or inaction based on full knowledge of the error involved. It is an internal rebellion against what God [the only One] has already put inside of a person. When the Holy Spirit in a person gives a person the precise answer or direction for a situation and the person knows this to be the case and goes another way anyway... that is the blasphemy, the unforgiveable sin.

People who routinely quench the Holy Spirit of God in themselves, which I believe is most believers, do not easily blaspheme the Holy Spirit because they are so rarely paying attention that they are ignorant of the directions from the Spirit.

For God it really is my way of the highway, but Spirit quenchers are usually blind and deaf having no clue. There can be no blasphemy due to their own ignorance, but ignorance like that will not be an excuse when the person runs out of time.

 

[Aunty Jane]

so please explain how all three are coexistent, coequal, and coeternal if they are not all God?

That is easy...they never were “coexistent, coequal, and coeternal”.....who told you that they were?
I will use a number of translations so that you won’t think I am just using ‘my own Bible’...OK?

“God the Father” is spoken about freely throughout the Bible, but there is not one mention of “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”......the Catholic Church invented those terms to promote its trinity.

Jesus is the created “Son of God”. He was God’s “only begotten Son” long before he came to earth as Jesus “the Christ”. One who is “begotten”, needs a ‘begetter’...one who existed first and who caused that one to exist. It is logically what makes God a “Father”.

Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”. (ESV)
Colossians 1:15-17 says of Jesus.....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (ESV)

Proverbs 8 speaks of God’s firstborn.....
“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.” (Proverbs 8:22-23,30-31 NIV)

So, Jesus was “the beginning of God’s creation”....

He is “the image of...God”.....an image is a reflection of what it is mirroring or representing.

He is “the firstborn of all creation” meaning that he is the very first creation of his Father, and “only begotten” (monogenes) means that he is literally an “only child”.

Since all creation came “through” the Son, but not “from” him, the Son is the agency through whom all things came into existence in heaven and on earth. Jesus was working alongside his Father in the whole project. He is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.
That makes Jesus sonship unique as the only direct creation of his God and Father.

The Father is the only being to have the designation “Eternal” which literally means “no beginning or end” and since Jesus is a creation of his Father he had a beginning so he is not co-eternal.

The Holy Spirit in scripture is sometimes personified, but then so are a lot of other things in the Bible. It does not mean that God’s spirit is a person because it’s application throughout man’s history shows that it isn’t.

God’s spirit was shown to be moving to and fro over the surface of the waters when God first began his project here on earth. But nowhere does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, “God”. Jesus is never called “God” either. He is called “theos” which can be applied to any one who is a god, of divine origin, or who has been granted divine authority.
The Holy Spirit is never called “theos” but as long as God has existed he has always been a powerful Being. His spirit is the administration of his immense power. It is not and never has been a person.

In ancient times when Moses first led the Israelites out of Egypt, he found the going too difficult as this was a vast multitude of difficult and rebellious people that he was trying to lead through the harshest of environments.

Numbers 11:16-17 tells us what God said to Moses....
“The Lord said to Moses, “Gather to me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know are elders of the people and officials over them, and bring them to the tent of meeting; let them take their position there with you. Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take part of the Spirit that is on you, and will put it on them, and they will bear some of the burden of the people with you, so that you do not bear it all by yourself. (NET)

Is this describing a “person”....or is this describing the dissemination of God’s power among many?

When the disciples received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, there were 120 of them gathered in a room. The Holy Spirit was distributed among all of them. Is this a person, or again, the dissemination of God’s power among many who could then do supernatural things?

In all scripture that has Jesus at God’s right hand, there is not a single mention of the Holy Spirit being at his left. In fact in almost every scripture, God and his Son are spoken about but the Holy Spirit is invariably missing. (John 10:30; John 17:3)

A study of the Bible itself rather than church doctrines clarifies many things and exposes false doctrines that crept in long ago and have become Bible truth to many....when they never were.
We should allow the whole Bible to speak...it has much to teach us.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am glad you have an understanding that satisfies. You understand it that way, but I really do not. There are a few things that I have presented on this forum and others which no one has explained in a way which might lead me to change the way I lean. I keep on asking people also why it is important. I have asked God that.

That part of Psalms has a theme. And my initial read is not going to be an effort to take the scripture out of context. But I also believe in the Living Word of God....the Trinity. And what I mean by that is exponential readings from the perspective of a person that has a connection with the Holy Spirit...filled with the Holy Spirit.

Another deep topic...Did Christianity learn that marriages should start with vows and a religious wedding ceremonies. Did Christianity learn that slavery was wrong that way. The Holy Ghost churches that I love so much....Depending on how you look at it....Charismatic Christianity had a late start. Its big push was from the Great Awaking movement....1700's. Why? Is this Christianity learning...did the scriptures influence someone filled with the Holy Spirit to move this forward...not just with the whites, it is crossing racial barriers.

I find the timeline very interesting. People of color in the north favored these beliefs. Even before the slaves were freed, people of color in the south, were favoring this message. The Civil War ended April 9th 1865 and that was pretty much the time when the black churches started to increase across the country, and they did favor spiritual Christianity. Was the Holy Spirit calling another group to Christianity?

Then the Living Word can give a message to a person that is personal to them...even though the scripture is not written, in that context.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The word trinity doesn't appear but the reality of the word coined to describe God as a triune Deity is explicitly and clearly spelled out!

No it does not. There is more scripture that proves that the trinity is a false teaching than the obscure verses that seem to establish it.....into these verses it is woven, grafted, implied.....but not ever specifically stated.