Silly question, but a thought provoking one:

[Grailhunter]

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

I have a very long explanation for the Trinity in Grailhunter's Corner and I pointed this scripture out as the best explanation for the Trinity. The type of "oneness" that the Trinity has will be the type of "oneness" we will have with God in the end. That does not mean we will all be one person....a spiritual solidarity. This relationship we have with the Trinity....was it enhanced by the fact that Yeshua ascended to His Father with His humanity intact?

 

[Wrangler]

That is easy...they never were “coexistent, coequal, and coeternal”.....who told you that they were?
I will use a number of translations so that you won’t think I am just using ‘my own Bible’...OK?

“God the Father” is spoken about freely throughout the Bible, but there is not one mention of “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”......the Catholic Church invented those terms to promote its trinity.

Wow! Outstanding post AJ. Have you thought about going into ministry?

 

[Grailhunter]

Even so! Did Jesus already have his own will or did he gain a own will when he was born to Mary as a man and then had to allow or cause his will to become the same as Father's? I ask the question but I do not presume to provide more of an answer.

Since I believe that they have their own minds, wills, and presence...I believe that Christ has His own will but does the will of the Father....another case for positional authority. Of course and then, you have the concept of perfection in motion, which is another form of unity and solidarity. If they are all perfect....then they would all have the same goal, just have their own parts in that plan.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wow! Outstanding post AJ. Have you thought about going into ministry?

I have been a Bible teacher for 50 years. I love the Bible and have made it my life’s work to study and understand its teachings as they fit in with the entirety of scripture, and teach others it’s wonderful simplicity.....so many just pull out bits that back up what they want to believe and complicate its message....but the whole Bible is one story and everything should fit within its narrative without having to force it in through inference or implication. There should never be contradictions...and I have never found any.

JW’s are all “ministers” (which just means being in the service of others)....we study scripture and train for the ministry at our meetings.
We don’t see the first Christians as continuing to participate in traditional Jewish worship, but after Jesus’ death and the commencement of the new covenant, they concentrated more on preaching and teaching as Jesus did...devoting time to study God’s word and to preach it to others.
Worship should never descend into meaningless performance. Our connection to God should be very personal.

The first Christians were preachers and teachers, so we try to emulate them and teach a consistent truth that all our brotherhood support and promote in every nation on earth. The ministry to us is therefore an “obligation” rather than a “calling”. (Matthew 28:19-20)

Thank you for the encouragement....

 

[Grailhunter]

To me blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is against God period. It is a willful action or inaction based on full knowledge of the error involved.

Against God...as with which one....Yahweh?
Well I disagree because it is a God pointing the offense to another God. Now I have theories on this, as to why it was unforgiveable. But I do believe it has to be an intent that is specific. In context the Pharisees were accusing Christ of using the power of the devil to cast out demons. Christ knowing their thought immediately turns to explain the error of their thinking....in detail...so this is the context. “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."

So I do believe this get a person into deep do do. But also I believe there has to be an intent beyond stupid. Some people are cessationist, the Holy Spirit scares some people....tongues and such and some just do not believe. But some say that tongues and spiritual prophecy are from the devil. That is a grave mistake.

 

[Grailhunter]

Exactly! If Jesus is God, then he must be a lesser God than his Father... or?

All being full-fledged Gods.
Yahweh, God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
Yeshua, God the Son, Messiah, and Savior.
God the Holy Spirit, the unnamed God, that teaches us, strengthens us, and helps us.

Christ said, The Father is greater than I. All full-fledged Gods but there is a positional authority.
Thrones? Christ sit on the right hand of Yahweh....the Holy Spirit on the left? The center throne the position of overall authority.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Billy to Bible study teacher: Why did God have to send himself down to earth to become his own son to sacrifice himself just to convince himself to forgive us?

None of that happened Billy, so you can sleep well now.

 

[Aunty Jane]

we must each lay the “foundation of the world” for ourselves too

What does that mean?

under the law nearly every transgression requires blood huh aunty

so iow “was” is the likely op word there imo

You have a rather strange way of putting things bbyrd...I find it hard to determine what you mean a good deal of the time....but I shall try.

Blood “was” required to redeem mankind.....but not any more. Christ paid the price and those who have died waiting for the final curtain to come down on this wicked world will sleep peacefully, unaware of what is transpiring in the meantime. So the living have a shot at making it through the end times, but the dead already have their ticket to paradise, Jesus’ death will grant them a resurrection and a new beginning. Death is the wages of sin, so the dead have paid sin’s wages. Jesus’ sacrifice buys them another chance at getting it right.
Among the dead are those who never knew God or his Christ...these will be educated after their resurrection. All will then make a final choice at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. Satan will be released to test mankind one last time. (Revelation 20:7-9)

Then all will return to God’s original purpose for mankind. (Isaiah 55:11)

ah, Nehushtan, yeh. So it turns out we are not freed from the law of sin and death after all, huh aunty. A son of man may die for our sins after all?

Oh but we are freed....just not completely yet.....the law of sin and death will hold us until “the great day of God the Almighty” cleanses this earth of all wickedness and those who practice it.
The human race was hijacked and held to ransom....but the ransom was paid, and we are now just waiting to go “home”.....for the “elect” that will mean a new birth to heavenly life and rulership with Christ....but for the faithful, but unelected, a paradise on earth awaits them. God will restore his original purpose for mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)

i tell you that Jacob was making, but he wasnt biting

You’re going to have to explain that one......???

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

Why do you think Jesus said that?

 

[bbyrd009]

What does that mean?

well not saying that i know, and i even hesitate to forward a reply that might be taken as some sort of “fact” or “truth,” but i can note that i pretty much “slayed Christ” all by myself at a very young age, when i decided to follow along with the world for the first time, which although i have forgotten the specifics i still recall the feeling involved

Blood “was” required to redeem mankind.....but not any more. Christ paid the price and those who have died waiting for the final curtain to come down on this wicked world will sleep peacefully, unaware of what is transpiring in the meantime. So the living have a shot at making it through the end times, but the dead already have their ticket to paradise, Jesus’ death will grant them a resurrection and a new beginning. Death is the wages of sin, so the dead have paid sin’s wages. Jesus’ sacrifice buys them another chance at getting it right.
Among the dead are those who never knew God or his Christ...these will be educated after their resurrection. All will then make a final choice at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. Satan will be released to test mankind one last time. (Revelation 20:7-9)

Then all will return to God’s original purpose for mankind

that blood was ever “required” is, to me, the giving of law, which was done specifically to show its inadequacy, I detest your sacrifices, meaning that i doubt Yah ever cared about any animal sacrifices.
Jeremiah 6:20; Isaiah 1:11–15; Amos 5:21–23 - ESV.org
https://www.esv.org › ...

What use to me is frankincense that comes from Sheba, or sweet cane from a distant land? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices ...

Amos 5:21 "I hate, I despise your feasts! I cannot stand the ...
https://biblehub.com › amos

"What good to Me is your multitude of sacrifices?" says the LORD. "I am full from the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I take no delight ...

• https://biblehub.com/isaiah/1-11.htm
  
  “What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?” says the LORD. “I am sick of yourburnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened cattle. I get no pleasure ...

https://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-references/search?q=1+Samuel+15:22
1 Samuel 15:22 Cross References - OpenBible.info
https://www.openbible.info › cross-references › search

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, ... “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies


as to the rest, i would not be holding my breath waiting for some literal interpretation of those to come to pass, some are even in direct opposition to other Scripture, which i have already Quoted to you and which has already been ignored

Oh but we are freed....just not completely yet.....the law of sin and death will hold us until “the great day of God the Almighty” cleanses this earth of all wickedness and those who practice it.

you are freed from the law of sin and death so no offense but i’ll stick with that for now anyway

You’re going to have to explain that one......???

ah well…Jacob was making, and Esau was eating, right? Guess we would have to come to some agreement on what “red stew” is first though

Why do you think Jesus said that?

well, not for the reason we are told by pastors, im reasonably sure now

 

[amadeus]

That part of Psalms has a theme. And my initial read is not going to be an effort to take the scripture out of context. But I also believe in the Living Word of God....the Trinity. And what I mean by that is exponential readings from the perspective of a person that has a connection with the Holy Spirit...filled with the Holy Spirit.

Another deep topic...Did Christianity learn that marriages should start with vows and a religious wedding ceremonies. Did Christianity learn that slavery was wrong that way. The Holy Ghost churches that I love so much....Depending on how you look at it....Charismatic Christianity had a late start. Its big push was from the Great Awaking movement....1700's. Why? Is this Christianity learning...did the scriptures influence someone filled with the Holy Spirit to move this forward...not just with the whites, it is crossing racial barriers.

I find the timeline very interesting. People of color in the north favored these beliefs. Even before the slaves were freed, people of color in the south, were favoring this message. The Civil War ended April 9th 1865 and that was pretty much the time when the black churches started to increase across the country, and they did favor spiritual Christianity. Was the Holy Spirit calling another group to Christianity?

Then the Living Word can give a message to a person that is personal to them...even though the scripture is not written, in that context.

Thank you for your kind and interesting response. With my wife's three appointments today it has been long and I am now trying to catch up on here.

For my wife's final appointment a home health nurse visited us to initiate the process for my wife. It turned to be a real blessing for us as she was a zealous Christian lady born in Nigeria but living and working in the United States for the past 30 years. She did her work but also exchanged testimonies with us... God knew what we all needed.

 

[amadeus]

I have a very long explanation for the Trinity in Grailhunter's Corner and I pointed this scripture out as the best explanation for the Trinity. The type of "oneness" that the Trinity has will be the type of "oneness" we will have with God in the end. That does not mean we will all be one person....a spiritual solidarity. This relationship we have with the Trinity....was it enhanced by the fact that Yeshua ascended to His Father with His humanity intact?

Thank you I will try to remember to visit that thread later. Like so many posts and threads on the forum I have not read it. Even when I don't have extra outside activities, there are too many things of here for the time I am willing and able to put into it. I will plan to read it to see if you have written anything new to me. It will really be a surprise to me if you have.

 

[amadeus]

Since I believe that they have their own minds, wills, and presence...I believe that Christ has His own will but does the will of the Father....another case for positional authority. Of course and then, you have the concept of perfection in motion, which is another form of unity and solidarity. If they are all perfect....then they would all have the same goal, just have their own parts in that plan.

I won't comment on this as it involves philosophical ideas which just reading them caused my head to spin.

May God richly bless as you continue to work for Him my friend!

 

[amadeus]

Against God...as with which one....Yahweh?
Well I disagree because it is a God pointing the offense to another God.

Not by me. I believe ultimately in only one God and only one Jesus, His Son. Whatever Jesus is, he is not his father even though he opened the Way and leads people along the Way to Him.

You have or want complete black and white answers. Please don't expect the same from me.

Now I have theories on this, as to why it was unforgiveable. But I do believe it has to be an intent that is specific. In context the Pharisees were accusing Christ of using the power of the devil to cast out demons. Christ knowing their thought immediately turns to explain the error of their thinking....in detail...so this is the context. “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven."

So I do believe this get a person into deep do do. But also I believe there has to be an intent beyond stupid. Some people are cessationist, the Holy Spirit scares some people....tongues and such and some just do not believe. But some say that tongues and spiritual prophecy are from the devil. That is a grave mistake.

I won't comment on this but I do agree with at least part of it.

 

[amadeus]

All being full-fledged Gods.
Yahweh, God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
Yeshua, God the Son, Messiah, and Savior.
God the Holy Spirit, the unnamed God, that teaches us, strengthens us, and helps us.

Christ said, The Father is greater than I. All full-fledged Gods but there is a positional authority.
Thrones? Christ sit on the right hand of Yahweh....the Holy Spirit on the left? The center throne the position of overall authority.

Except in my heart my position cannot be easily explained and I will not try. You are of course disagreeing with some, if not all, of what I did say. I do not expect everyone to agree me or me with them. Only God gives increases that really matter. He may use people to accomplish it.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I thought aunty jane said she wasnt a JW??

 

[Aunty Jane]

I thought aunty jane said she wasnt a JW??

I never said I wasn't a JW.....just that it didn't much matter what I am, if I am just speaking about the Bible.....it explains itself if you let it.

 

[APAK]

That is easy...they never were “coexistent, coequal, and coeternal”.....who told you that they were?
I will use a number of translations so that you won’t think I am just using ‘my own Bible’...OK?

“God the Father” is spoken about freely throughout the Bible, but there is not one mention of “God the Son” or “God the Holy Spirit”......the Catholic Church invented those terms to promote its trinity.

Jesus is the created “Son of God”. He was God’s “only begotten Son” long before he came to earth as Jesus “the Christ”. One who is “begotten”, needs a ‘begetter’...one who existed first and who caused that one to exist. It is logically what makes God a “Father”.

Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”. (ESV)
Colossians 1:15-17 says of Jesus.....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (ESV)

Proverbs 8 speaks of God’s firstborn.....
“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.” (Proverbs 8:22-23,30-31 NIV)

So, Jesus was “the beginning of God’s creation”....

He is “the image of...God”.....an image is a reflection of what it is mirroring or representing.

He is “the firstborn of all creation” meaning that he is the very first creation of his Father, and “only begotten” (monogenes) means that he is literally an “only child”.

Since all creation came “through” the Son, but not “from” him, the Son is the agency through whom all things came into existence in heaven and on earth. Jesus was working alongside his Father in the whole project. He is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.
That makes Jesus sonship unique as the only direct creation of his God and Father.

The Father is the only being to have the designation “Eternal” which literally means “no beginning or end” and since Jesus is a creation of his Father he had a beginning so he is not co-eternal.

The Holy Spirit in scripture is sometimes personified, but then so are a lot of other things in the Bible. It does not mean that God’s spirit is a person because it’s application throughout man’s history shows that it isn’t.

God’s spirit was shown to be moving to and fro over the surface of the waters when God first began his project here on earth. But nowhere does the Bible call the Holy Spirit, “God”. Jesus is never called “God” either. He is called “theos” which can be applied to any one who is a god, of divine origin, or who has been granted divine authority.
The Holy Spirit is never called “theos” but as long as God has existed he has always been a powerful Being. His spirit is the administration of his immense power. It is not and never has been a person.

In ancient times when Moses first led the Israelites out of Egypt, he found the going too difficult as this was a vast multitude of difficult and rebellious people that he was trying to lead through the harshest of environments.

Numbers 11:16-17 tells us what God said to Moses....
“The Lord said to Moses, “Gather to me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know are elders of the people and officials over them, and bring them to the tent of meeting; let them take their position there with you. Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take part of the Spirit that is on you, and will put it on them, and they will bear some of the burden of the people with you, so that you do not bear it all by yourself. (NET)

Is this describing a “person”....or is this describing the dissemination of God’s power among many?

When the disciples received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, there were 120 of them gathered in a room. The Holy Spirit was distributed among all of them. Is this a person, or again, the dissemination of God’s power among many who could then do supernatural things?

In all scripture that has Jesus at God’s right hand, there is not a single mention of the Holy Spirit being at his left. In fact in almost every scripture, God and his Son are spoken about but the Holy Spirit is invariably missing. (John 10:30; John 17:3)

A study of the Bible itself rather than church doctrines clarifies many things and exposes false doctrines that crept in long ago and have become Bible truth to many....when they never were.
We should allow the whole Bible to speak...it has much to teach us.

Right on sister!
It's plain-Jane and easy-peasy to a few, although very difficult for most to comprehend because their spiritual foundation is based on a mysterious triad pagan triune god that does not exist in biblical reality.

 

[quietthinker]

I never said I wasn't a JW.....just that it didn't much matter what I am, if I am just speaking about the Bible.....it explains itself if you let it.

smoke screens ensure the questions that need to be asked don't appear on the radar and if they are asked they get shuffled to the side.....all under the guise of 'the bible' says so.

 

[Aunty Jane]

smoke screens ensure the questions that need to be asked don't appear on the radar and if they are asked they get shuffled to the side.....all under the guise of 'the bible' says so.

The Bible is the only reliable thing on this earth to direct us to God......but its not the only thing. We can all have the same scriptures, but it is God's spirit that directs our comprehension. No one can come to God through Jesus Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) Its that simple.

Denominations are a distraction because labels mean nothing to God.....whom you worship....how you worship...and with whom you worship, count more with him.
By allowing the whole Bible to speak and then letting go of errors that you have perhaps clung to all your life, or even things that you made up in your own head, you give God an opportunity to reach your heart...but he will not intrude...nor will he ever force us against our will to believe the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

One thing that the Bible says about true Christians as opposed to the counterfeit ones sown by the devil is love and unity (John 13:34-35; 1 Corinthians 1:10).....where there is disunity, you will not find God....and there can be no lone rangers in Christianity either. If you do not have a brotherhood with whom you meet for worship as the first Christians did, and agree on one truth, how can you call yourself a Christian? (Hebrews 10:24-25; Heb 13:17)
The truth unites people...it doesn't divide them unless they are on opposite sides.

 

[Aunty Jane]

that blood was ever “required” is, to me, the giving of law, which was done specifically to show its inadequacy, I detest your sacrifices, meaning that i doubt Yah ever cared about any animal sacrifices.
Jeremiah 6:20; Isaiah 1:11–15; Amos 5:21–23 - ESV.org
https://www.esv.org › ...

What use to me is frankincense that comes from Sheba, or sweet cane from a distant land? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices ...

Amos 5:21 "I hate, I despise your feasts! I cannot stand the ...
https://biblehub.com › amos

"What good to Me is your multitude of sacrifices?" says the LORD. "I am full from the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I take no delight ...

• 
  
  “What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?” says the LORD. “I am sick of yourburnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened cattle. I get no pleasure ...

1 Samuel 15:22 Cross References - OpenBible.info
https://www.openbible.info › cross-references › search

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, ... “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies

Are you reading right over those words without understanding anything?
It wasn't the sacrifices per se that God was detesting but the circumstances under which they offered them. He hated their hypocrisy...read the whole chapters of the verses you quoted and see.

Jacob was making, and Esau was eating, right? Guess we would have to come to some agreement on what “red stew” is first though

Esau despised his birthright and sold it for a bowl of stew.....the red there was probably red lentil stew. (Genesis 25:34)
Hebrews 12:16-17...
"and watch that among you there is no one who is sexually immoral nor anyone who does not appreciate sacred things, like Eʹsau, who gave up his rights as firstborn in exchange for one meal. 17 For you know that afterward when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for although he earnestly tried to bring about a change of mind with tears, it was to no avail."

Nothing but a brute of a man wanting a mouthful of stew because he was famished...."gave up his rights as firstborn in exchange for one meal."