Law Religion vs Grace
- Thread starter soul man
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Right. And after that comes the custom parsing, as you show us your version of God's covenant with Israel imported into our relationship with Jesus. And no two are ever the same. Not that I've seen anyways.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What is it about "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18), the summation of the law, that you do not understand?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
If that is the definition of walking by sight, not by faith then why do the NT authors tell us to walk by sight?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Surely, you believe that the NT is the guidance and direction of Jesus, right?
If all we need is for Jesus to just impress his love on us and tell us to love others, why the long, detailed passages in the NT of how to treat people?
Reading the Bible and then trying to do it without God is 'religion', in every negative connotation of the word. Reading the Bible and then doing it in the love and grace of God is the grace that the OP is contrasting with 'religion'. People have a very wrong understanding of what grace is. More and more people are thinking grace means you do nothing and just have good thoughts about Jesus and the gospel, while religion is you do something.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Don't you know that the thing that Jesus wants you to do is uphold the law? If that's not true, the NT writers gave us all a bum steer.
Last edited:
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Um, I'm pretty sure that's what you're doing, lol.
Certainly, you are the one who would defend a 'new' law that has replaced the law of Moses, right? The law of Christ (i.e. 1 Corinthians 9:21).
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Why would you not become acceptable to God by repenting of fornication? Surely, you repented of fornication when you were born again, right?
The point being, I think what you mean to resist is stopping fornication in your own effort, as opposed to stopping it as the result of God's grace. But for some reason 'grace' has come to mean 'don't attempt to stop fornicating because you read about it in the Bible, that would be works'. How foolish.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The proper phrase is 'upholds the law', not 'literally keeps the law to the letter'.
And let's make sure to understand that Jesus did in fact 'keep' the parts of the law that you and I do not have to literally 'keep'. So there is no notion here that the law is somehow left 'unkept'. Don't try to tell us that Jesus he did not 'keep', for example, the laws that require blood.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Uh, oh. Here come the dumb arguments against the law used by people who don't understand that Romans 3:31 does not say or mean 'keep the law to the letter'.
Next you'll criticize 'spiritual' fulfillment of the law, not knowing the whole Christian faith is based on Christ's spiritual fulfillment of the law of Passover and the Day of Atonement, circumcision, and Sabbath rest.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I don't think you know what it means to 'uphold' the law (Romans 3:31). That is what I'm defending. But, as usual, most Christians can only hear that as 'keep' the law.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
This has nothing to do with the law still being a covenant.
Just because we uphold the law of Moses by our faith doesn't mean the law of Moses is still the covenant between God and his people.
Law, any law, doesn't instantly equate to covenant. If it did then you and I are still under a covenant of law.
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
"In law religion there is no room for growth. You either live religions ideas of pleasing God and keep the rules - bylaws - and be a partaker of it's truth as it is seen by religion - or you fail. Far cry from grace and knowledge"
This kind of philosophical drivel can only be expected of someone who is preaching a false concept of grace and don't actually understand(or want to understand) what the Bible says:
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.'" - Rom. 7:7-8
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever." - Psa. 111:10
"Now the days of David drew near that he should die, and he charged Solomon his son, saying: 'I go the way of all the earth; be strong, therefore, and prove yourself a man. And keep the charge of the LORD your God: to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn;" - 1 Kin. 2:1-3
How can anyone know what is truly right or wrong without first knowing how God defines right and wrong conduct? Homosexuality, witchcraft, lying, murder, and stealing are wrong because God's laws says they are wrong, not because Moses or some other man said they are wrong. You say there is no room for growth in a religion that involves keeping God's laws, and yet the Bible shows that knowing and living life by God's standards allows a person to grow in understanding and mature in their thinking because they are able to avoid committing those sins.
If you actually knew grace in the way Paul understood it when he wrote about it, you would know that grace carries the inherent obligation to do what God commanded. Grace is not a license to disregard the Law, nor does grace oppose the Law. They work together. Why? Because the Law can't bring forgiveness, and grace cannot keep someone in a state of righteousness once it's been imputed to them through Christ's blood. Orthodox Christianity's inability to properly understand or accept literally most doctrines Paul covered in his epistles is a direct result of its adherents rejecting the Law.
This kind of philosophical drivel can only be expected of someone who is preaching a false concept of grace and don't actually understand(or want to understand) what the Bible says:
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.'" - Rom. 7:7-8
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever." - Psa. 111:10
"Now the days of David drew near that he should die, and he charged Solomon his son, saying: 'I go the way of all the earth; be strong, therefore, and prove yourself a man. And keep the charge of the LORD your God: to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn;" - 1 Kin. 2:1-3
How can anyone know what is truly right or wrong without first knowing how God defines right and wrong conduct? Homosexuality, witchcraft, lying, murder, and stealing are wrong because God's laws says they are wrong, not because Moses or some other man said they are wrong. You say there is no room for growth in a religion that involves keeping God's laws, and yet the Bible shows that knowing and living life by God's standards allows a person to grow in understanding and mature in their thinking because they are able to avoid committing those sins.
If you actually knew grace in the way Paul understood it when he wrote about it, you would know that grace carries the inherent obligation to do what God commanded. Grace is not a license to disregard the Law, nor does grace oppose the Law. They work together. Why? Because the Law can't bring forgiveness, and grace cannot keep someone in a state of righteousness once it's been imputed to them through Christ's blood. Orthodox Christianity's inability to properly understand or accept literally most doctrines Paul covered in his epistles is a direct result of its adherents rejecting the Law.
Saying no one can keep it is a lie. Christ did it. John the Baptizer's parents did it. Job did it. Matter of fact, one of Job's friends Bildad stated in Job 8:20 that God won't cast away the blameless. That inherently implies that it is possible, because God never commanded anyone to do what was impossible. People just don't want to live by the Law because it inconveniences what they want to do(as Paul perfectly points out in Rom. 8:7), not because it supposedly requires too much from them. As James said, faith without obedience is absolutely worthless.
op: law religion vs God's Pure GRACE
or, is it a "combo" doctrine? The Law, According to The GRACE Gospel:
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what
they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is NOT made for a righteous man, but
for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and
profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for
menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing
that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According To What?:
1Ti 1:11 According to The Glorious Gospel of The Blessed God, which
was committed to my trust. The Glorious Gospel Of PURE GRACE, Correct?:
Now, MOST agree we, today, Are SAVED By GRACE Through faith, (Eph 2:8-9),
in The Gospel Of GRACE (1 Cor 15:3-4), Correct? But, Where MOST Vehemently
Disagree is with this: Is that enough to KEEP God's ETERNAL Salvation?
Apparently NOT, because to some, God's ETERNAL Salvation is
NOT ETERNAL, BUT, is only 'temporary,' As:
Lawkeepers (1Ti 1:5-7) Demand "THE ETERNALLY Saved" to
OBEY PERFECTLY, the "temporary Conditions" of Either:
1) ALL 613 points of the Mosaic LAW, OR, at Least:
2) The TEN Commandments? Meaning: DISOBEY And suffer ETERNAL torment!
Apparently then, "lawmaker's doctrine" is such that:
The Precious ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Of The Saviour, is INSUFFICIENT!
This UNbiblical teaching Is Disproven By God's Sound Doctrines:
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance
Further, The Simplicity Of CHRIST, According To The GRACE Gospel,
Is Totally Amazing, According to {NOT 613, NOR 10, NOR ANY}, Except:
THIS ONE Commandment!:
3) ALL Of His Law IS FULFILLED, In "ONE Word: LOVE thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
Conclusion, why is it that some say they "have Been SAVED By God,"
But Then Vehemently Disagree With HIM!
May God Have MERCY!! God's Simple Will!
or, is it a "combo" doctrine? The Law, According to The GRACE Gospel:
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what
they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is NOT made for a righteous man, but
for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and
profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for
menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing
that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According To What?:
1Ti 1:11 According to The Glorious Gospel of The Blessed God, which
was committed to my trust. The Glorious Gospel Of PURE GRACE, Correct?:
Now, MOST agree we, today, Are SAVED By GRACE Through faith, (Eph 2:8-9),
in The Gospel Of GRACE (1 Cor 15:3-4), Correct? But, Where MOST Vehemently
Disagree is with this: Is that enough to KEEP God's ETERNAL Salvation?
Apparently NOT, because to some, God's ETERNAL Salvation is
NOT ETERNAL, BUT, is only 'temporary,' As:
Lawkeepers (1Ti 1:5-7) Demand "THE ETERNALLY Saved" to
OBEY PERFECTLY, the "temporary Conditions" of Either:
1) ALL 613 points of the Mosaic LAW, OR, at Least:
2) The TEN Commandments? Meaning: DISOBEY And suffer ETERNAL torment!
Apparently then, "lawmaker's doctrine" is such that:
The Precious ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Of The Saviour, is INSUFFICIENT!
This UNbiblical teaching Is Disproven By God's Sound Doctrines:
God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance
Further, The Simplicity Of CHRIST, According To The GRACE Gospel,
Is Totally Amazing, According to {NOT 613, NOR 10, NOR ANY}, Except:
THIS ONE Commandment!:
3) ALL Of His Law IS FULFILLED, In "ONE Word: LOVE thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
Conclusion, why is it that some say they "have Been SAVED By God,"
But Then Vehemently Disagree With HIM!
{"swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling"???}
May God Have MERCY!! God's Simple Will!
Yes it is. If you won't trust, and you won't love, these are the first commandments, the Law of Christ. All sin is definitely lawlessness.
That general state of rebelliousness when you disregard that part inside that's telling you, This is Wrong.
There is much more in the way of sin than what is specified in the Mosaic Law. That's why the love of love is all encompassing.
Much love!
In faith upholding the law, this is to say that the requirement of faith validates the righteous condemnation of the Law. Not that somehow you are joined to the Sinai covenant God made with Israel.
This is the really big part to remember.
Much love!
Similar threads
