Eternal Security

[amadeus]

Yes, some believe they are cultivating their own dirt.

Actually what we should be doing is yielding to the Holy Spirit rather than quenching the Holy Spirit within us.

The Holy Spirit of God when directly engaged in a battle within a man will always win. That men after being "saved" do sin means that in order to sin they they have quenched the Holy Spirit. This is what men may call, free will: To choose God as our Leader... or not. Many men who have met Jesus swing back and forth... between allowing the old man to lead and allowing the new man to lead... This is so for anyone who still sins at all!

We need to be killing all of our beastly ways... to kill finally and completely our old man. Only the new man by the power of the Holy Spirit can do that. If we still sin at all, the old man is not dead, as the new man never chooses to sin!

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts" James 4:1-3​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

John wrote that those who leave never were a part, they only looked like it. Why should we presume something different?

And then he immediately proceeds to tell saved, anointed people to let the word of God remain in them and if it does they will remain in the Son and the Father (1 John 2:24-25). So, obviously, 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[marks]

And then he immediately proceeds to tell saved, anointed people to let the word of God remain in them and if it does they will remain in the Son and the Father (1 John 2:24-25). So, obviously, 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what you think it means.

It just means what it says. This is my point. Your view cannot be reconciled to all of the Bible. You have to separate out parts that Just Won't Fit.

I'm going to post another I wonder that you'll have an issue with . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation (lit. Citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Do we all believe the Bible as written? Or do we have issues with certain passages? Because if you do not think this is absolutely true, then what?

Jesus shall change our vile body (Lit. the 'body of our humiliation') to be like His glorious body.

How certain are you? Do you share the certainty of the apostle? Why or why not?

Is he wrong? Of course not!

Much love!

 

[marks]

If we still sin at all, the old man is not dead,

The old man, so far as I can see in the Bible, this is the man born from Adam, and includes our flesh, the body we live in, and we will be living in that body the rest of our natural lives, right?

And that flesh is corrupted, which was why Jesus was born the Last Man. There is the first Man, and the Last Man. The original humanity from the original creation, and a new humanity, a new creation.

And we'll spend the rest of our lives, I think, learning, being trained, to live, think, act, according the new man, and not the old. But that corruption is in our flesh, our flesh is our body, and we remain in our body.

What else can this flesh be? Some immaterial force not connected to the body? That sends us on the wrong fight. We have body appetites, but they cannot be trusted, and must be subjected to the Scriptures.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

The old man, so far as I can see in the Bible, this is the man born from Adam, and includes our flesh, the body we live in, and we will be living in that body the rest of our natural lives, right?

And that flesh is corrupted, which was why Jesus was born the Last Man. There is the first Man, and the Last Man. The original humanity from the original creation, and a new humanity, a new creation.

And we'll spend the rest of our lives, I think, learning, being trained, to live, think, act, according the new man, and not the old. But that corruption is in our flesh, our flesh is our body, and we remain in our body.

What else can this flesh be? Some immaterial force not connected to the body? That sends us on the wrong fight. We have body appetites, but they cannot be trusted, and must be subjected to the Scriptures.

Much love!

If for the moment, we are saved according to God, it is because we are continuing to strive to attain to the Light and to surrender to Him so that we can endure with Him to the end.

If we stumble or fall along the way, we are not lost if we get up or sincerely and humbly ask God to help us get up. People lose salvation because they quit rather than because they sin. Lots of believers may sin, but the ones who make it to the end with God are the ones who do not quit because of failures and adversities. They get up one more time knowing in their heart that He is still their only Hope and they refuse to give up.

Anyone, I believe, who is not already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer and says that he cannot return to eat his own vomit or that he cannot look back over his shoulder to Sodom in longing is denying the way things are.

Jesus overcame it all without sinning. We must continue to move in that direction. The vomit and the pleasures of Sodom are still there. Alone we will return to them. Do not quit on God and He will not quit on you. The work is still before and possible by the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Do not quench the Spirit!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It just means what it says. This is my point. Your view cannot be reconciled to all of the Bible. You have to separate out parts that Just Won't Fit.

I'm going to post another I wonder that you'll have an issue with . . .

Much love!

OSAS can’t reconcile their understanding of 1 John 2:19 with 1 John 2:24-25.
It can’t explain why John has to tell real anointed believers to let the word remain in them (and what will happen if they do) when he supposedly just said all real believers without exception will never fall away.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

People lose salvation because they quit rather because they sin.

Amen.
This what the church needs to hear.

 

[marks]

OSAS can’t reconcile their understanding

Are you addressing me in this?

Because it sounds like you are tossing out some assumptions based on what, I'm not sure. Did you have a more direct question?

Did you want to take a stab at exegeting the verses I'm posting to show how they don't really mean that these things they speak of won't actually happen?

I want to look at specific statements of the Bible, and specific thoughts, not, They can't reconcile this verse to that verse, that says nothing to me.

He shall change our vile body to be like His. I'm holding that to be true as written, without the need to add or subtract any words.

Philippians 3:20-21 YLT
20) For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await—the Lord Jesus Christ—
21) who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

If your citizenship is in heaven, When that time comes - not now - then - He shall transform your body to be like His. I propose we believe that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Hebrews 7:22-25 KJV
22) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23) And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24) But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

“For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:6-11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

1 Peter 1:22-25 KJV
22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

John 11:25-26 KJV
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:20-21 YLT
20) For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await—the Lord Jesus Christ—
21) who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

I'm holding to the plain meaning of a plainly stated passage of Scripture.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It’s seems though a few on thi thread seem to glory in their flesh.

No it's not about your power. It's about whose power you're going to walk in, God's or the devil's:

"I am sending you to them to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God" Acts 26:17-18
​

You have the choice. It's not a boast of the flesh to choose the way of God's power through faith (Romans 3:27).

 

[marks]

OSAS can’t reconcile their understanding of 1 John 2:19 with 1 John 2:24-25.
It can’t explain why John has to tell real anointed believers to let the word remain in them (and what will happen if they do) when he supposedly just said all real believers without exception will never fall away.

Why do people put a reference but not the passage, anyway? Is it because they don't want to take the effort? Don't want too much context? I don't know.

First, that missing context . . .

1 John 2:18-25 YLT
18) Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many—whence we know that it is the last hour;
19) out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but—that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.
20) And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and have known all things;
21) I did not write to you because ye have not known the truth, but because ye have known it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22) Who is the liar, except he who is denying that Jesus is the Christ? this one is the antichrist who is denying the Father and the Son;
23) every one who is denying the Son, neither hath he the Father, he who is confessing the Son hath the Father also.
24) Ye, then, that which ye heard from the beginning, in you let it remain (present/active); if in you may remain (aorist/active) that which from the beginning ye did hear, ye also in the Son and in the Father shall remain (future/active),
25) and this is the promise that He did promise us—the life the age-during.

So given the presentation, here's my question. Are we thinking that vs. 24 somehow makes vs. 19 not true? That those who left, those who did not remain, where they then actually "of us"? To me that sort of answer is a contradition.

Vs. 24, "Ye, then, that which ye heard . . ." is "ye", here, of necessity to the text addressing only the born again? Is John somehow contradicting himself within the space of 6 verses? Or should we try to harmonize these passages WITHOUT negating one of them?

Is John telling the reader to allow what they've heard to remain in them, because having done that, they will remain in God. Isn't that the way to understand this passage both in harmony with other places, and matching exactly what is written?

I'm to allow the word to remain in me. I've allowed the word of truth to remain in me, and therefore I shall remain in the Father.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

@marks Obscure the Trinity and obscure Eternal Security; these great truths go hand in hand, right? (as the writings of R B Kuiper, A. W Pink, J I Packer and so many others bear out..)

 

[marks]

@marks Obscure the Trinity and obscure Eternal Security; these great truths go hand in hand, right? (as the writings of R B Kuiper, A. W Pink, J I Packer and so many others bear out..)

I'm not altogether familiar with these people's writings, just the same, we are saved eternally as God immerses us into His Eternal Son.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

I'm not altogether familiar with these people's writings, just the same, we are saved eternally as God immerses us into His Eternal Son.

Much love!

@marks There is such a glorious doctrinal heritage in Scripture in God in Three Persons, and security for time and eternity, indeed...

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

A.W. pink was a serious calvinist. I have read some of his writings. If john calvin was a man after the Holy Spirit, then Pink was a man after the Father. Some may find his writings easier to understand given the time frame that he was alive compared to calvin’s writings.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

we are saved eternally as God immerses us into His Eternal Son.

This is not what's in dispute.

Your possession in this lifetime of the salvation that is eternal (as opposed to 'salvation' under the old covenant) is what may or may not be sure. It all depends on if you really believe, and if continue to trust in Jesus Christ to the very end. You have and remain in the promise of the life to come as long as you are a believing person. That's why you have to continue to believe to the very end. The promises are to those who have believed and are continuing to believe. Not to those who have stopped believing, or who never really believed to begin with. This in no way takes away the fact that the salvation of God is an eternal salvation, one that can not end or be interrupted (as it did under the ministry of the Levites). What is not determined yet is if you are going to remain in the salvation that never ends. Either you're going to let the word of God remain in you, or you're not. If it does, you remain in the promise of eternal life.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Are we thinking that vs. 24 somehow makes vs. 19 not true?

I'm saying your understanding of vs. 19 does not gel with vs. 24-25.
If vs. 19 means that true believers will never leave, why does John tell real believers in vs. 24-25 to let the word of God remain in them, and that the promise of eternal life remains for them if does?

 

[marks]

I'm saying your understanding of vs. 19

Then what would you say my understanding is, and what would you say the correct understanding is?

19) out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but—that they might be manifested that they are not all of us.

Do some go forth?
Yes.

Were they "of us"?
No.

What if they had been "of us"?
They would have remained.

Do they remain?
No.

What happens when they do not remain?
They are revealed as not being "of us".

Do you have different answers?

If they are "of us"? They would remain.

And a final question.

Remain, abide, dwell, reside, these are all the same

If you do not remain in a certain house . . . if you do not reside at a certain address . . . if you do not dwell in this place . . . if you do not abide in my office . . . should I make the assumption that you had previously, and later left?

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Acts 15:8-9 KJV
8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The heart is purified by faith. Our hope is what we believe is coming, that is, the consumation of our faith. I believe Jesus, and Jesus said He would raise me from among the dead, therefore I have the hope of the resurrection.

God purifies hearts by faith.

Every man that has this hope, that when we see His, we will be like Him, if we have that hope, we purify ourselves, even as Jesus is pure.

That hope springs from our faith, having a true hope springs from having a true faith. Our hearts are purified by faith, in that hope, that when we see Him, not that we will be judged and condemned and tossed into the Lake of Fire, rather, we will be transformed to be just like Him, His glorious body, even though our bodies are still called "vile". "The body of our humiliation". Sounds appropriate to me!

Much love!