A Closer Look at the Genesis Creation Account

[Aunty Jane]

That is the best thing you can do.

I agree....no point in hanging around listening to an inconvenient truth....

Jesus will let us all know soon enough who he is......(Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for your responses AJ to both me and backlit. Your replies have given me a pretty good window into the core of how JW's are wired. It has been revelatory because these views have been concealed by other interactions if had with your fellowship.

As I only speak the truth as I understand it QT, what is it that I have revealed that others have not?

I will add, my understanding of the Jesus I have come to know has not always been as it is. I have learned that violence of any sort as a solution for anybody, God included, does not glorify him. What it actually does is paint him with the characteristics of Satan and the best way humans can think of in solving impassable problems.

Didn’t Jesus also demonstrate his righteous indignation in driving out the money changers and their animals from the Temple? There is a time to express righteous anger, as God himself has done throughout the history of Israel. Has God changed somehow between then and the coming of his Christ? It’s the same God and Jesus has been his son for eons of unknown time. Who knows him better?

Justice requires recompense, and I believe that God will soon demonstrate to disobedient mankind that his righteous indignation will soon be dished out in a way similar to the days of Noah......Jesus said that only “few” are on the road to life......so where does that leave the “many” who are on the wrong one? (Matthew 7:13-14)
Please tell me.....

God's justice is liberation from oppression not retribution and how he goes about achieving this is our privilege to understand. That is the mystery!

I see no mysteries QT....all I see is a God who exacted obedience from those who chose of their own free will, to obey him. When they did not, he punished them with death. What is mysterious about that?
They knew the penalty before they committed the offence, so where was their excuse?

Freedom from oppression will come only by eliminating those who oppress.....is that not just a simple concept? Why do you want God not to be who he says he is, and to to do what he says he will?
Does that bring him down in some way, according to your estimations?
When Jesus comes to separate the sheep from the goats, what becomes of the goats? Not a smack on the wrist. They go to the place reserved for the devil and his demons......everlasting destruction.....never to be seen again. (Matthew 25:31-34; 41, 46)

You have to ignore a lot of scripture to take the position you have. Are we at liberty to do that?

One final thing; it goes without saying that if God forbids killing and he himself kills, he is saying, do as I say not as I do. We all know this qualifies as hypocrisy. A hypocrisy we feign face up to.....it might expose us!

God’s laws do not involve sentiment, but they can involve mercy (which is merited).

When God says “you must not murder” that is not saying that no one can be put to death for disobeying God’s laws because those laws and their penalty were clearly stated. “Murder” is “unlawful killing”.....Since God sanctioned the death penalty for certain sins, you need to take that up with him. He has authority to give life and to take it as he sees fit.....he will not abide by your rules because his rules offend you.

You have made God in your own image if you think he does not demand the death penalty.....Jehovah is the one portrayed in the scriptures, (all of the scriptures) like it or not....you cannot alter God to suit your own sensibilities.

His justice, like his other qualities is perfectly balanced. I love him for that.

 

[quietthinker]

As I only speak the truth as I understand it QT, what is it that I have revealed that others have not?


Didn’t Jesus also demonstrate his righteous indignation in driving out the money changers and their animals from the Temple? There is a time to express righteous anger, as God himself has done throughout the history of Israel. Has God changed somehow between then and the coming of his Christ? It’s the same God and Jesus has been his son for eons of unknown time. Who knows him better?

Justice requires recompense, and I believe that God will soon demonstrate to disobedient mankind that his righteous indignation will soon be dished out in a way similar to the days of Noah......Jesus said that only “few” are on the road to life......so where does that leave the “many” who are on the wrong one? (Matthew 7:13-14)
Please tell me.....


I see no mysteries QT....all I see is a God who exacted obedience from those who chose of their own free will, to obey him. When they did not, he punished them with death. What is mysterious about that?
They knew the penalty before they committed the offence, so where was their excuse?

Freedom from oppression will come only by eliminating those who oppress.....is that not just a simple concept? Why do you want God not to be who he says he is, and to to do what he says he will?
Does that bring him down in some way, according to your estimations?
When Jesus comes to separate the sheep from the goats, what becomes of the goats? Not a smack on the wrist. They go to the place reserved for the devil and his demons......everlasting destruction.....never to be seen again. (Matthew 25:31-34; 41, 46)

You have to ignore a lot of scripture to take the position you have. Are we at liberty to do that?


God’s laws do not involve sentiment, but they can involve mercy (which is merited).

When God says “you must not murder” that is not saying that no one can be put to death for disobeying God’s laws because those laws and their penalty were clearly stated. “Murder” is “unlawful killing”.....Since God sanctioned the death penalty for certain sins, you need to take that up with him. He has authority to give life and to take it as he sees fit.....he will not abide by your rules because his rules offend you.

You have made God in your own image if you think he does not demand the death penalty.....Jehovah is the one portrayed in the scriptures, (all of the scriptures) like it or not....you cannot alter God to suit your own sensibilities.

His justice, like his other qualities is perfectly balanced. I love him for that.

There are so many things to say in reply to you here AJ it is hard for me to know where to start.
What I do know AJ, is the paradigm you are immersed in mirrors that of the natural man. What do I mean by that? I mean, seeing things from God's perspective is different, even opposed to how the natural man sees them....I'm sure you would agree with this?

So, I will dive in somewhere and offer an explanation of sorts.
Firstly, I would say that death is a consequence of disobedience to God and I'm quiet certain God does not stroke his chin after man has disobeyed and says to himself, now let me see, what can I do to punish these recalcitrant ragamuffins....ah yes, I know what I'll do, I'll kill them, I'll make them suffer.
Consequence, in the case of Adam and Eve had them running for cover....something had shifted in their reality and they thought God had it in for them (erroneously)....because we read he went looking for them.....like lost sheep
Blaming started when God addressed them, blaming of each other as well as God. I find that interesting.
From the moment of creation God was their only best friend and their partner (Adam or Eve) a buddy so close they were one flesh.....yet something happened within themselves as a result (consequence) of disobedience and the relationships they had took on suspicion and fear....even with the animals!

Everything shifted, they died spiritually and emotionally.....with the physical to catch up. And whats more, they passed on this heritage to all their progeny. A bind/ a prison none can escape. They were trapped and within the first generation murder surfaced and that by the hand of their firstborn. The trajectory was set.

God made promises to rescue them but how that rescue was to play out was a mystery to them and the preceding generations. Men had all sorts of ideas how this was going to be implemented the spearhead of which involved them appeasing the offended diety and somehow 'pulling up their socks' for the purpose of making a favourable impression on God. Nothing has changed fundamentally since those early days. The cover of the book, so to speak, has had updates but the pages contain the same principles. (I'm concerned you mightn't get my analogy?)

further....Whatever else was recorded by prophets, priests and kings, however it was understood, along comes Jesus......directly from the throne of God.....his objective; to make clear/plain God's purposes. The Fathers audible voice witnesses to this both at his baptism and on the mount of transfiguration 'this is my Son, listen to him' was the direction. A few simple words yet critically incisive! 'listen to him'

AJ.....are you tracking? It is pointless me going on unless we can see eye to eye on this fundamental foundation.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus directed the apostles to find one house in each city they came to, and stay in that same house until they left that city, in fact He specifically said GO NOT FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE.

They used that one house in each city as a base of operations.

Thus when scripture says they went house to house, it meant they went from city to city and stayed in a house in each city, as shown by Jesus’ words:

Luk 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

Luk 10:5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.

Luk 10:6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Luk 10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Thus the watchtower doctrine that each believer has to go door to door and house to house in order to obey Yahweh, is wrong.

There’s no biblical requirement to go door to door.

A Christian has plenty of opportunities to witness at work, at the store, as they go through daily life.

Watchtower: you must go door to door from house to house.

Jesus: GO NOT FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE.



Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

There are so many things to say in reply to you here AJ it is hard for me to know where to start.
What I do know AJ, is the paradigm you are immersed in mirrors that of the natural man. What do I mean by that? I mean, seeing things from God's perspective is different, even opposed to how the natural man sees them....I'm sure you would agree with this?

So, I will dive in somewhere and offer and explanation of sorts.
Firstly, I would say that death is a consequence of disobedience to God and I'm quiet certain God does not stroke his chin after man has disobeyed and says to himself, now let me see, what can I do to punish these recalcitrant ragamuffins....ah yes, I know what I'll do, I'll kill them, I'll make them suffer.
Consequence, in the case of Adam and Eve had them running for cover....something had shifted in their reality and they thought God had it in for them (erroneously)....because we read he went looking for them.....like lost sheep
Blaming started when God addressed them, blaming of each other as well as God. I find that interesting.
From the moment of creation God was their only best friend and their partner (Adam or Eve) a buddy so close they were one flesh.....yet something happened within themselves as a result (consequence) of disobedience and the relationships they had took on suspicion and fear....even with the animals!

Everything shifted, they died spiritually and emotionally.....with the physical to catch up. And whats more, they passed on this heritage to all their progeny. A bind/ a prison none can escape. They were trapped and within the first generation murder surfaced and that by the hand of their firstborn. The trajectory was set.

God made promises to rescue them but how that rescue was to play out was a mystery to them and the preceding generations. Men had all sorts of ideas how this was going to be implemented the spearhead of which involved them appeasing the offended diety and somehow 'pulling up their socks' for the purpose of making a favourable impression on God. Nothing has changed fundamentally since those early days. The cover of the book, so to speak, has had updates but the pages contain the same principles. (I'm concerned you mightn't get my analogy?)

further....Whatever else was recorded by prophets, priests and kings, however it was understood, along comes Jesus......directly from the throne of God.....his objective; to make clear/plain God's purposes. The Fathers audible voice witnesses to this both at his baptism and on the mount of transfiguration 'this is my Son, listen to him' was the direction. A few simple words yet critically incisive! 'listen to him'

AJ.....are you tracking? It is pointless me going on unless we can see eye to eye on this fundamental foundation.

And when Jesus returns it’s with flaming fire, the wrath of God against evildoers, blood flows, and scavenger birds (vultures) get a huge feast from the dead, says scripture:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Jesus came the first time in love, as a lamb, but returns as the lion of the tribe of Judah, with judgment and wrath - it’s time to cleanse the world of evil and evil people at that time.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus came the first time in love, as a lamb, but returns as the lion of the tribe of Judah, with judgment and wrath - it’s time to cleanse the world of evil and evil people at that time.

The spin largely agreed with here plays right into the hand of the thinking of the natural man.
I also notice you have ignored my question as to your gender in a previous post.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus: GO NOT FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE

Violating obvious context Curtis is to your own hurt the which results in understanding remaining at a distance!

 

[Curtis]

Violating obvious context Curtis is to your own hurt the which results in understanding remaining at a distance!

I violated no context whatsoever.

Jesus sent 72 disciples out to evangelize, and told them to pick one house in each city they visited, and told them specifically NOT to go house to house.

Read the passage. I did.

 

[quietthinker]

I violated no context whatsoever.

Jesus sent 72 disciples out to evangelize, and told them to pick one house in each city they visited, and told them specifically NOT to go house to house.

Read the passage. I did.

He told them to stay in one house re domicile.....that's the context. You are trying to shoehorn the account into meaning visiting homes for the purpose of sharing the gospel. JW's do not visit homes for the purpose of staying while they're in town.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What I do know AJ, is the paradigm you are immersed in mirrors that of the natural man. What do I mean by that? I mean, seeing things from God's perspective is different, even opposed to how the natural man sees them....I'm sure you would agree with this?

What is the paradigm you think I am immersed in?
I am in the form of a "natural man/woman" and it is natural for me to think like one...its the very reason why Jehovah is a Father and Jesus is his son....natural paradigm. When Paul spoke of the "natural man" as opposed to the "spiritual man" he was speaking about those who are anointed by God's spirit being able to discern spiritual things, unlike those who were not. Not everyone is chosen for life in heaven. They will be "kings and priests" and their rulership will be over this earth bringing redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with God. (Revelation 2-:6; Revelation 21:2-4) Kings need subjects, and priests need sinners for whom to perform their duties....there are no sinners in heaven and kings do not rule one another.

A Christian can have “the mind of Christ” by coming to know the pattern of Jesus’ thinking. We can meditate on all aspects of Christ’s personality and then adopt Christ’s way of thinking and imitate his example of humility and obedience. (1 Peter 2:21) A Christian’s “dominant mental attitude” will then reflect the thinking of Christ, whose “mind” reflects the thinking of Jehovah. (Ephesians 4:23; John 14:9)

So, I will dive in somewhere and offer an explanation of sorts.
Firstly, I would say that death is a consequence of disobedience to God and I'm quiet certain God does not stroke his chin after man has disobeyed and says to himself, now let me see, what can I do to punish these recalcitrant ragamuffins....ah yes, I know what I'll do, I'll kill them, I'll make them suffer.

That is a rather absurd picture you have painted there QT....what the Bible says has no such image. It was stated from the beginning that sin produces death. (Romans 6:23) If the first pair had not sinned, death would not have occurred because access to "the tree of life" would not have been withdrawn, so it would have been available as long as they obeyed their God. It was this tree that imparted everlasting life in their mortal flesh. Being mortal didn't mean they had to die...only that they could if they did the wrong thing.

How many ways are there to die? That is how many ways there are to suffer. Death produces suffering....it goes with the territory.
The death penalty instituted by God in the garden of Eden, indicated the seriousness of the offense.....stealing from one's Sovereign was always a punishable crime, no matter how petty the theft was...because it indicated a gross lack of respect for him, his position, and what belonged to him.

God placed "the knowledge of good and evil" in his own jurisdiction for a good reason. Opposites exist in nature as a natural consequence of its perfect balance. Up, down...in, out...right, left....forward, backward....with, without...light, dark....etc...all have their place in everyday life, but a knowledge of good also had its opposite, and that is what God wanted to keep to himself.....a knowledge of evil would not be of benefit to his human children. But they were tempted into taking what God had not given them, and it altered their whole lives. A knowledge of evil has ruined life on this earth.....but God had to show us, because he tried to tell them and they failed to listen to him, but instead chose to listen to the devil. So he allowed the devil a relatively free hand to rule the earth and prove to humans who was the better ruler.
As satan told Jesus....
"So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

Consequence, in the case of Adam and Eve had them running for cover....something had shifted in their reality and they thought God had it in for them (erroneously)....because we read he went looking for them.....like lost sheep
Blaming started when God addressed them, blaming of each other as well as God. I find that interesting.

A knowledge of evil is what happened to them. They lost their innocence. The first thing they became aware of was their naked state because now evil thoughts came flooding in with each new vision. Shame was a foreign feeling, and it moved them to cove up their reproductive parts because sexual sin disrespects the sanctity of life...or the act that creates it.
The blame game is nothing new because usually the first thing a flawed human does is justify his/her actions or blame someone else for his/her mistakes.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Part 2

From the moment of creation God was their only best friend and their partner (Adam or Eve) a buddy so close they were one flesh.....yet something happened within themselves as a result (consequence) of disobedience and the relationships they had took on suspicion and fear....even with the animals!

I don't really understand what you mean here...? By getting offside with their Creator, the first humans became aware that their Creator was not happy with them. He evicted them from their garden home and cursed the ground on their account, forcing them to become farmers.
Instead of delicious fruit, now they were to "eat bread" under hard labor. (Genesis 3:17-19)

There is not a single expression of remorse, nor was there ever a sacrifice offered to God in repentance. They knew that their sin was unforgivable because there was no basis upon which to forgive them. Perfect humans are like the angels...they don't make mistakes...their sin is willful and deliberate, in full knowledge of the consequences.
Christ was not sent to die for Adam and Eve....he was sent to rescue their children, born in sin through no fault on their part.

Everything shifted, they died spiritually and emotionally.....with the physical to catch up. And whats more, they passed on this heritage to all their progeny. A bind/ a prison none can escape. They were trapped and within the first generation murder surfaced and that by the hand of their firstborn. The trajectory was set.

Yes it was. But before Adam and his wife bore offspring (the foundation of the world) God had already formulated the remedy. (Genesis 3:15)

God made promises to rescue them but how that rescue was to play out was a mystery to them and the preceding generations.

God kept the mystery of the Kingdom to himself until he sent his Messiah into the world and his apostles got to understand what it was all about.
But his people knew that the Kingdom of God would rule the earth in the hands of his Messiah....they just were short on the details.

Men had all sorts of ideas how this was going to be implemented the spearhead of which involved them appeasing the offended diety and somehow 'pulling up their socks' for the purpose of making a favourable impression on God. Nothing has changed fundamentally since those early days. The cover of the book, so to speak, has had updates but the pages contain the same principles. (I'm concerned you mightn't get my analogy?)

Its sort of lost because I do not agree with what you said here.
"Appeasing the offended deity" and "pulling up their socks" was never in the equation, unless it was to repent of their sin and turn back to God. IMO. God's perfect law was given to an imperfect people in order to demonstrate their need for the coming Messiah....a savior who would rescue them the curse it became. It was a curse because it condemned sinners....and all are sinners. (Romans 5:12)
Galatians 3:13....
"Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”

AJ.....are you tracking? It is pointless me going on unless we can see eye to eye on this fundamental foundation.

QT it is hard for me to follow your line of thinking when mine is contrary to your own.
Do you have a brotherhood who believes as you do? Or are these conclusions entirely your own? I believe that what happened in Israel, has happened again in our day. (Matthew 13:15)
Who taught you your truth? You see, my fundamental foundation is resting on a different rock altogether.....and I have a large global brotherhood who all believe the same as I do. We are taught as a collective, not as individual sheep all doing their own thing in the same pen. We are under the care of our shepherds who bear responsibility for the welfare of the flock. (Hebrews 13:17)
Who are your appointed shepherds?

We are poles apart in our appraisal of the big picture I'm afraid.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thus the watchtower doctrine that each believer has to go door to door and house to house in order to obey Yahweh, is wrong.

There’s no biblical requirement to go door to door.

A Christian has plenty of opportunities to witness at work, at the store, as they go through daily life.

Watchtower: you must go door to door from house to house.

Jesus: GO NOT FROM HOUSE TO HOUSE.

Acts 5:42...
"And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and preaching the good news of Jesus as the Christ."

Acts 20:20...
"how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was beneficial, and teaching you publicly and from house to house".

 

[JohnPaul]

@JohnPaul The so called J W s...

Taze Russel and his 'ism was a false teacher. That is why you get everything wrong.

I never heard of the man, I haven't seen more loving and compassionate people than Witnesses of the one true God Jehova, perhaps it's all of you who are getting the wrong message and without even knowing it are in league with the your Mother Church in Rome.

Don't say someone is wrong before first seeing the things you preach.

 

[JohnPaul]

There is actually more scripture that disproves the trinity than the few ambiguous verses that are taught in Christendom to support it. There is not a single declaration in all of scripture where Jesus claims to be God. When the Christian scriptures were penned, there was no trinity in Christianity.

That doctrine was adopted and grafted into “the church” after much controversy, and finally became an official teaching of the church....but not until the 4th century.

You are preaching to the deaf Aunty Jane, I never read or was taught that Jesus is God but his Son our Savior, these people believe what they want they bash the Catholic Church yet they have so much in common with it, and don't even see it.

Jesus Christ said depart from for I never knew you, and I believe
he said it to those who teach this false fabricated teaching made up by man and their Mother Church in Rome.

Stay strong my Dear sister and fight the fight and let not these people who criticize you get you, as you are a true soldier in God's army and you never give up, much respect and love for you Aunty Jane.

 

[Cooper]

I never heard of the man, I haven't seen more loving and compassionate people then Witnesses of the one true God Jehova, perhaps it's all of you who are getting the wrong message and without even knowing it are in league with the your Mother Church in Rome.

Don't say someone is wrong before first seeing the things you preach.

LOVE! They must have caused the deaths of thousands by not allowing blood transfusions. Never mind broken marriages caused by their rules.
.

 

[Cooper]

You are preaching to the deaf Aunty Jane, I never read or was taught that Jesus is God but his Son our Savior, these people believe what they want they bash the Catholic Church yet they have so much in common with it, and don't even see it.

Jesus Christ said depart from for I never knew you, and I believe
he said it to those who teach this false fabricated teaching made up by man and their Mother Church in Rome.

Stay strong my Dear sister and fight the fight and let not these people who criticize you get you, as you are a true soldier in God's army and you never give up, much respect and love for you Aunty Jane.

Jesus said it to those who deny his deity, the same as you do.

Talk about being mixed up.
.

 

[Cooper]

I never heard of the man, I haven't seen more loving and compassionate people than Witnesses of the one true God Jehova, perhaps it's all of you who are getting the wrong message and without even knowing it are in league with the your Mother Church in Rome.

Don't say someone is wrong before first seeing the things you preach.

Taze Russell is the man who in the latter days of 1870 or thereabouts devised this crazy, mixed up and deeply flawed religion of yours, that resembles the religion of the Pharisees, and comes nowhere near to the teaching of Jesus, thereby insulting his Holy name.
.

 

[JohnPaul]

Taze Russell is the man who in the latter days of 1870 or thereabouts devised this crazy, mixed up and deeply flawed religion of yours, that resembles the religion of the Pharisees, and comes nowhere near to the teaching of Jesus, thereby insulting his Holy name.
.

I have no religion, but a relationship with God Almighty and his only begotten son Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

 

[Cooper]

I have no religion, but a relationship with God Almighty and his only begotten son Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

If you include the Holy Spirit in that little speech of yours, which you need to do, then you have the Trinity which you deny.

I am reminded of the deceiver.
.

 

[JohnPaul]

If you include the Holy Spirit in that little speech of yours, which you need to do, then you have the Trinity which you deny.

I am reminded of the deceiver.
.

I only need include God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, the path to salvation.