A Closer Look at the Genesis Creation Account

[farouk]

Who is Taze Russellism?

@JohnPaul The so called J W s...

 

[Cooper]

Who is Taze Russellism?

Taze Russel and his 'ism was a false teacher. That is why you get everything wrong.

 

[Cooper]

Talking to myself here. I can understand how easy it is for people to see Father and Son as two separate persons, and indeed that is what Trinitarism teaches, ONE God IN three persons, the Holy Spirit being the third person.

So when we look at a chocolate cake, we are seeing chocolate, flour and eggs, which is ONE cake. Three in one.

The eggs are not the flour, and the flour is not the chocolate, but it is one cake, and all three co-exist together. If we save one piece for later, it has always existed from the beginning.

Taste and see that God is good. Psalm 34:8. It is not good if a misguided chef says, "we only need two of the ingredients. We can leave one out." That would be a total flop.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your biblical worldview completely disregards the character of Christ as a reflection of the character of the Father.

If you believe that, then you haven't read a thing I've written. Nowhere have I ever implied that Jesus is not the perfect reflection of his Father. All I have said is that I do not believe that he shares any equality with his superior Father. He is not God, but was sent by his God and Father to undo the damage that Adam did to his children.

A perfect reflection, revealing the nature of the kingdom over which they preside. God is not about power and sovereignty.

I beg to differ. It was God's Sovereignty that was challenged in Eden. The devil questioned God's right to set reasonable limits to the freedom he gave to the first humans. God is not about domination, but about order and will use his power to accomplish his will. He will have his name and power declared in all the earth. (Exodus 9:16) How many times in the book of Ezekiel did God say....”And they shall know that I am Jehovah”? (Ezekiel ch 6)

As a Father, he expects obedience and full respect due to his position.
He demonstrates his power to those who need to appreciate who he is and what his will is regarding his own creation. God dictates to us, we do not dictate to him.

While He is God, King, and sovereign over all His vast creation/universe, His character reveals His willingness to not only give that all up and risk it for the sake of others, but is willing share it with those who are found worthy of the responsibility.

Now this is the nonsense of the trinity speaking....God never risked anything. He sent his most trusted servant to pay a debt that no living human could pay. All Jesus need to be was the equivalent of Adam....sinless. He did not need to be God to pay the set price of redemption. An immortal God cannot die. His son became a mortal human and paid the ransom for all who qualify for it. He demonstrated his willingness to offer his beloved son when he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son. Both willingly obeyed God’s direction and this illustration allows us to see how Jehovah felt about it, but it also demonstrated the son’s willingness to be offered as that sacrifice. (Hebrews 11:17-19)

So the kingdom isn't about power. It's about character. The kingdom within you is the submission of the human mind to the mind of Christ.

The kingdom is portrayed as a heavenly government that will clear away all failed human rulership under the devil’s influence, and replace that corrupt governance with his own rulership.... (Daniel 2:44) and it’s not far away by the looks of things. We can all discern that these are the last days, and that they are coming to an end.

Our character has to be moulded by the truth as the Bible explains it....what is a “Christian” after all but a footstep follower of Christ? Jesus warned that a fake and corrupted “Christianity” would be sown by the devil and that his true disciples would be identified by their love for one another. He said their “fruitage” would not be worthless, but vital in carrying out the great commission. They would not be part of the world and it’s conflicts and bloodshed. And they would not be supporting false religious beliefs and practices.

Christendom’s adherents cannot preach about the Kingdom as Jesus foretold, because they have no idea of what it is....what it is for....or how it will alter all life on this planet.
That is how I see things.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I see retribution has the priority in your post AJ and mercy never gets a mention. Is this not the same MO as the world?

Romans 12:17-21....
“17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

Vengeance belongs to God. God’s justice will be served....

 

[Aunty Jane]

"Universal sovereignty" for only a 144,000. Come on.

This is ignorance speaking again...at least get your facts straight before you post your nonsense....
God’s Sovereignty is Universal....he is the Sovereign of all his intelligent creation whether they acknowledge him as such or not, that never changes.
144,000 are the elect, chosen for rulership and priestly positions in the heavenly kingdom. (Revelation 20:6 Revelation 14:1-4)
These will rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Talking to myself here. I can understand how easy it is for people to see Father and Son as two separate persons, and indeed that is what Trinitarism teaches, ONE God IN three persons, the Holy Spirit being the third person.

So when we look at a chocolate cake, we are seeing chocolate, flour and eggs, which is ONE cake. Three in one.

The eggs are not the flour, and the flour is not the chocolate, but it is one cake, and all three co-exist together. If we save one piece for later, it has always existed from the beginning.

Taste and see that God is good. Psalm 34:8. It is not good if the chef says, "we do not need the chocolate."

God is now a chocolate cake......?

 

[Aunty Jane]

There’s so many pagan gods in the world that probably any day that Jesus‘s birthday is celebrated would be a pagan day to someone, somewhere. But it doesn’t matter what day it used to be, what matters is we’re honoring the Lord Jesus Christ on Easter - it’s resurrection day of Jesus we’re honoring - Christmas is the birthday of Jesus, and he’s not a pagan god - so it doesn’t matter what the day used to be.

Romans 14 says not to judge anyone by what day they keep, or don’t keep, as long as the day honors God,

2 Corinthians 6:14-18.....
14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.” (Isaiah 52:11)

You cannot mix true worship with false worship...it’s like marrying Christ with the devil. (Beʹli·al) (1 Cor 10:20-21)

What does God tell us to do? “get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’..... ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

The instruction is clear to me....

 

[Aunty Jane]

@marks There is indeed overwhelming Biblical evidence for God in Three Persons.

There is actually more scripture that disproves the trinity than the few ambiguous verses that are taught in Christendom to support it. There is not a single declaration in all of scripture where Jesus claims to be God. When the Christian scriptures were penned, there was no trinity in Christianity.

That doctrine was adopted and grafted into “the church” after much controversy, and finally became an official teaching of the church....but not until the 4th century.

 

[farouk]

There is actually more scripture that disproves the trinity than the few ambiguous verses that are taught in Christendom to support it. There is not a single declaration in all of scripture where Jesus claims to be God. When the Christian scriptures were penned, there was no trinity in Christianity.

That doctrine was adopted and grafted into “the church” after much controversy, and finally became an official teaching of the church....but not until the 4th century.

Totally false.

John 1 is full of deity of Christ.

1 Timothy 3.16.

Hebrews 1.

Etc., etc., etc.

God in Three Persons is deeply present in the New Testament. Matthew 28; John's Gospel, esp. chs. 13 - 17; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.

This is simply not negotiable.

 

[farouk]

I'm going to use a certain button.

 

[Curtis]

From an ex JW pioneer:

“I wanted to believe I was doing all I could to please God and obliging Him to protect me through the battle of Armageddon. Still, the very best I could hope for was to die while in the door-to-door ministry or in the process of refusing a blood transfusion. That’s the closest any Witness gets to a guarantee of getting into the “new world,” the paradise earth. This is the hope most Jehovah’s Witnesses look forward to since heaven only has room for 144,000. Once you make it to the “new world,” then you have to go without any major sin for 1,000 years and then you have to be tested again to see if you deserve eternal life. Even if you pass all the tests, there is no hope of lasting security. If you pass the test, you will only win “perfection” which is supposed to greatly reduce your risk of sinning again and being permanently destroyed.

My faith started to wane when I had a miscarriage, and I could never reconcile that my baby would have no resurrection according to Jehovah’s Witness beliefs. Also, I did not see it as outright rebellion at the time, but I secretly rejected the Jehovah’s Witness idea that Jesus was not my Mediator”


So, doesn’t the NWT the JWs use, have this in it?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

[Curtis]

Progression, Big Smiles!

Jehovah's Witnesses and the History of 1914 (Part 1)

In the 1 November 1995 Watchtower magazine, the Jehovah's Witnesses made a major doctrinal change concerning the "Generation of 1914." To better understand the significance of this change it is crucial to understand the importance they place on the year 1914 and how their beliefs concerning that year have radically changed throughout their history. The following is a brief survey of the Watchtower's inconsistencies.

"Beginning of end" in 1799 not 1914
Originally the Watchtower taught that the beginning of "the time of the end" was in 1799 rather than 1914. They continued to teach this well beyond 1914.

"...1799 definitely marks the beginning of 'the time of the end'.... 'The time of the end' embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire....we have been in 'the time of the end' since 1799" (The Harp of God, 1928 ed., pp. 235-36, 239).

Christ's Invisible Second Presence in 1874 not 1914.
Based originally on the teachings of the Second Adventist preacher Nelson H. Barbour (Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of Christ's Kingdom, p. 47), the Watchtower Society taught that Christ's invisible second presence began in 1874 - not 1914 as they currently teach.

"The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874....From 1874 forward is the latter part of the period of 'the time of the end'. From 1874 is the time of the Lord's second presence... It was in the year 1874, the date of our Lord's second presence..." (The Harp of God, 1928 ed., pp. 236, 239-40).

Armageddon ends in 1914
Initially the organization taught the "battle of the Great Day of God Almighty" (Armageddon) would end in 1914. Every kingdom of the world would be overthrown in 1914 which was "God's date" not for the beginning but "for the end" of the time of trouble.

"...we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914" (Watchtower founder, Charles Taze Russell, The Time is at Hand, p. 99).

"¼...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced" (Ibid., p. 101).

"CAN IT BE DELAYED UNTIL 1914?...our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can last so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble" (Watch Tower, 15 July 1894, p. 226).

Armageddon ends shortly after 1914
World War I, rather than Armageddon, broke out in 1914. The Society had already begun to modify their prediction. They taught that 1914 was not the end, but the beginning of Armageddon. World War I was supposed to be the beginning of the Battle of Armageddon. That battle was to end shortly after 1914 with the utter destruction of professing Christianity, and the inauguration of Christ's millennial reign. The Watchtower first suggested this would be accomplished in 1915, but later predictions delayed it to 1918.

"The present great war in Europe [World War I] is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures" (Pastor Russell's Sermons, p. 676).

"...our eyes of understanding should discern clearly the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty now in progress... the glorious outcome - Messiah's Kingdom" (Watch Tower, 1 September 1916, p. 265).

"The Scriptures indicate that a great time of trouble similar to that which came upon the Jewish nation will now come upon all Christendom. The experience of Israel in the year 70 [destruction of Jerusalem] will be paralleled in the experiences of the year 1915" (Watch Tower, 15 June 1913, p. 181).

"...in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of 'Christianity'" (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 485).

1925 is clearly more biblical than 1914
By 1919-20 the Society began looking to the year 1925 as the date for the visible signs of Armageddon's approach. The Watchtower taught that the year 1925 was more clearly taught in the Bible than 1914. Watchtower president Joseph Rutherford claimed that as a sign that Armageddon was imminent, God would resurrect Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the faithful mentioned in Hebrews 11 in the year 1925.

"The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures because it is fixed by the law God gave to Israel. Viewing the present situation in Europe, one wonders how it will be possible to hold back the explosion much longer; and that even before 1925 the great crisis will be reached and probably passed" (Watch Tower, 1 September 1922, p. 262).

"The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year" (Watch Tower, 15 July 1924, p. 211).

"As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized... Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die! pp. 89-90).

And with every failed prophecy the Watchtower blamed their members.

 

[Curtis]

2 Corinthians 6:14-18.....
14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.” (Isaiah 52:11)

You cannot mix true worship with false worship...it’s like marrying Christ with the devil. (Beʹli·al) (1 Cor 10:20-21)

What does God tell us to do? “get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’..... ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

The instruction is clear to me....

Your reply scripture is ridiculously out of context.

Christians honor the day of the birth of Christ amongst themselves, so the day is separate from unbelievers and pagans.

The sole claim that it’s a pagan observance is based on the fact that pagans observed a non Christian
Pagan ritual on Christmas Day, which is ludicrous, as that ritual had nothing to do with Jesus or His birth.

This would be like someone telling you that you can’t buy a house that’s for sale because some pagans once lived there, so it’s forever a pagan house.

You and your ilk are telling us that the day is forever a pagan day, because pagans once used that date for their observance.

 

[Curtis]

I don't believe this to be true if you celebrate a pagan holiday and say you are celebrating Christ, how is that not sin?

Did not Constantine incorporate a lot of the pagan holidays into Christian holidays, such as Saturnalia the worship of Saturn=Satan and Easter the fertility Goddess, when the true word is suppose to be Passover, which is when Christ was Crucified and resurrected?

Pardon me if I don't have everything correct, I only recently started reading up on such Holidays being incorporated into Christianity by Constantine the Roman Emperor to appease the pagan worshipers into Christianity, hence the Yule log and Christmas trees and Christmas Wreaths, Mistletoe and so on.

What part of Jesus’ birth is pagan?

It doesn’t matter what pagans once used the day for, they have no part in celebrating the birth of Jesus.

Your logic is the same as telling someone they can’t buy a house for sale, because pagans once lived in it, so it’s forever a pagan house.

You’re claiming the day is forever a pagan day because they used the day for their observance.

Paul has a word for you: quit passing judgment on those who keep any day to honor God on, which includes Christmas and resurrection day/Passover,which some incorrectly refer to as Easter.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[quietthinker]

Romans 12:17-21....
“17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

Vengeance belongs to God. God’s justice will be served....

Thank you for your responses AJ to both me and backlit. Your replies have given me a pretty good window into the core of how JW's are wired. It has been revelatory because these views have been concealed by other interactions if had with your fellowship.

I will add, my understanding of the Jesus I have come to know has not always been as it is. I have learned that violence of any sort as a solution for anybody, God included, does not glorify him. What it actually does is paint him with the characteristics of Satan and the best way humans can think of in solving impassable problems.

In Jesus however, what I see is God using a principle to gain the victory which stumped the powers of darkness.....he submitted to them and thereby exposed them for what they really are. Conversely, in willing submission he absorbed their fury and nullified it, evidenced by his resurrection .....a witness to all creation throughout the Universe that God is love in its broadest and deepest sense.

God's justice is liberation from oppression not retribution and how he goes about achieving this is our privilege to understand. That is the mystery!

One final thing; it goes without saying that if God forbids killing and he himself kills, he is saying, do as I say not as I do. We all know this qualifies as hypocrisy. A hypocrisy we feign face up to.....it might expose us!

 

[quietthinker]

From an ex JW pioneer:

“I wanted to believe I was doing all I could to please God and obliging Him to protect me through the battle of Armageddon. Still, the very best I could hope for was to die while in the door-to-door ministry or in the process of refusing a blood transfusion. That’s the closest any Witness gets to a guarantee of getting into the “new world,” the paradise earth. This is the hope most Jehovah’s Witnesses look forward to since heaven only has room for 144,000. Once you make it to the “new world,” then you have to go without any major sin for 1,000 years and then you have to be tested again to see if you deserve eternal life. Even if you pass all the tests, there is no hope of lasting security. If you pass the test, you will only win “perfection” which is supposed to greatly reduce your risk of sinning again and being permanently destroyed.

My faith started to wane when I had a miscarriage, and I could never reconcile that my baby would have no resurrection according to Jehovah’s Witness beliefs. Also, I did not see it as outright rebellion at the time, but I secretly rejected the Jehovah’s Witness idea that Jesus was not my Mediator”


So, doesn’t the NWT the JWs use, have this in it?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Something does not add up here Curtis...perhaps you could clarify? In the statement above you say:-
'My faith started to wane when I had a miscarriage, and I could never reconcile that my baby would have no resurrection according to Jehovah’s Witness beliefs' ....the implication is, you are female....something I have suspected from other posts you have made elsewhere as well, however, in your profile information, it says you are a male ?

 

[Enoch111]

the implication is, you are female....something I have suspected from other posts you have made elsewhere as well, however, in your profile information, it says you are a male ?

The transgenderites have him totally confused. Just kidding.

 

[Aunty Jane]

From an ex JW pioneer:

“I wanted to believe I was doing all I could to please God and obliging Him to protect me through the battle of Armageddon. Still, the very best I could hope for was to die while in the door-to-door ministry or in the process of refusing a blood transfusion. That’s the closest any Witness gets to a guarantee of getting into the “new world,” the paradise earth. This is the hope most Jehovah’s Witnesses look forward to since heaven only has room for 144,000. Once you make it to the “new world,” then you have to go without any major sin for 1,000 years and then you have to be tested again to see if you deserve eternal life. Even if you pass all the tests, there is no hope of lasting security. If you pass the test, you will only win “perfection” which is supposed to greatly reduce your risk of sinning again and being permanently destroyed.

My faith started to wane when I had a miscarriage, and I could never reconcile that my baby would have no resurrection according to Jehovah’s Witness beliefs. Also, I did not see it as outright rebellion at the time, but I secretly rejected the Jehovah’s Witness idea that Jesus was not my Mediator”


So, doesn’t the NWT the JWs use, have this in it?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I have never heard of so much distorted garbage in my life. Do you believe everything that some random person tells you on the internet.....? Good grief!

 

[Cooper]

God is now a chocolate cake......?

I'm going to use a certain button.

That is the best thing you can do.