Understanding The Great Trib

[Davy]

The abomination of desolation event in Matthew 24:15 is at the mid tribulation point. Followed by the day of the Lord in verse 29, and a mid trib rapture in verses 30 and 31.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture specifically point to Jesus coming AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints. It's emphatic.

 

[Davy]

The twelve tribes in the Old Testament are different from the 12 in Revelation. Dan and Ephraim are missing.

Ezekiel 48 is the final layout in the holy land. Not all Bible prophecy in the Old Testament prophets is fulfilled yet today, and won't be until God's Eternity.

 

[Curtis]

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture specifically point to Jesus coming AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints. It's emphatic.

After THE tribulation, but before the GREAT tribulation - the text makes it clear.

Jesus mentions both THE tribulation - the first 42 months , and the GREAT tribulation- the last 42 months.

He says, in verse 29 that after THE tribulation of those days - the first half - then the rapture occurs in verses 29 and 30.

Jesus says that after the mid trib abomination of desolation event, (verse 15) then there shall be GREAT tribulation (the last half) verse 19.

So we have THE tribulation occurring before the verse 15 mid trib AOD event, and the GREAT tribulation starting in verse 29, (immediately before the verses 30 and 31 rapture), confirming the fact of the mid trib rapture.

And that’s an emphatic fact.

 

[Timtofly]

It's the fulfillment of the Jeremiah 24 prophecy God gave about Judah, and another people among them, which is not the final restoration of God's Israel, because the ten tribes did not return in 1948. The ten tribes are still scattered among the Gentiles, but God said He will gather them (the "stick of Joseph" along with the "stick of Judah", and make them one nation again restoring the old inheritances promised their fathers -- Ezekiel 37).



You are TRYING to put words in my mouth. Furthermore, you don't even know enough prophecy in the Old Testament prophets to realize that the restoration of Israel means ALL TWELVE TRIBES... and this...

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

Thus your questions are actually kind of funny, because they show your Biblical illiteracy.



The Matthew 24:15 event of the AOD being setup is when the "great tribulation" starts. The "For then shall be great tribulation" phrase at the beginning of verse 21 is covering those previously mentioned events from verse 15 forward. We are shown in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 that the ending of sacrifices and setting up of the AOD is in the 'middle' of the symbolic "one week" (7 years). Thus the AOD being setup starts the latter half 1260 day count.



Yes, that's when the "day of the Lord" happens, on the 'day' of Christ's return to gather His Church, the LAST DAY of this present world.




That is when Jesus will gather the house of Israel (ten tribes) and house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy land, at His return. That is when His separating of His sheep and the goats happens too (Matthew 25). The nation of Israel setup today by U.N. Charter vote by the nations is only about the "house of Judah", and only a small remnant of the those at that. Today, the majority of even the house of Judah (Jews) is still... scattered among the nations like the ten tribes still are.




I knew that was where you were leading. It shows that you do not know your Bible when it comes to the restoration prophecies about God's Israel. It even shows you don't even have a clue about the 1 Kings 11 event when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms! At that split, the TRUE Israel meant only the ten northern tribes which God scattered out of the land first, and TO THIS DAY, HAVE NEVER RETURNED TO THE HOLY LANDS.

You only showed your Biblical illiteracy, like I said.

I was pointing out the chronology of Matthew 24. You did not prove your points.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

This does not declare the full restoration. I asked you if this was the return of the Nation of Israel. So you do not view Israel as a current Nation? But it will be a nation after the Second Coming?

If you do not see 1948 or some claim 1967 as a major event just say so. I can only assume you do not recognize those dates.

I will assume, since you already just attacked my character instead of making points that you accept the chronology of Matthew 24, and reject the chronology of Revelation? Revelation has to conform to Matthew 24?

BTW, are you sure, that many currently living in Israel do not know what tribe they are from? They will not know that until after the Millennium starts?

 

[farouk]

I was pointing out the chronology of Matthew 24. You did not prove your points.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

This does not declare the full restoration. I asked you if this was the return of the Nation of Israel. So you do not view Israel as a current Nation? But it will be a nation after the Second Coming?

If you do not see 1948 or some claim 1967 as a major event just say so. I can only assume you do not recognize those dates.

I will assume, since you already just attacked my character instead of making points that you accept the chronology of Matthew 24, and reject the chronology of Revelation? Revelation has to conform to Matthew 24?

BTW, are you sure, that many currently living in Israel do not know what tribe they are from? They will not know that until after the Millennium starts?

I don't see that 1948 and 1967 are directly in Scripture. Maybe indirectly as part of a process whereby people of Jewish origin return to the land, but not directly.....

 

[Timtofly]

I don't see that 1948 and 1967 are directly in Scripture. Maybe indirectly as part of a process whereby people of Jewish origin return to the land, but not directly.....

So then you remove the sign of the fig tree. Putting it after the Second Coming would indeed make it meaningless and not a sign.

There literally is nothing to show from God's Word any end time events are about to start.

The first thing mentioned is the AoD. Even without a place to abominate.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) "

That event has no prior warning as listed by Jesus. We do not even know what the holy place is. One day we wake up and some will know this abomination has occurred. That is the first sign of the end, as written in Matthew 24, unless it is actually the last event, Jesus gives, which is my point.

 

[farouk]

So then you remove the sign of the fig tree. Putting it after the Second Coming would indeed make it meaningless and not a sign.

There literally is nothing to show from God's Word any end time events are about to start.

The first thing mentioned is the AoD. Even without a place to abominate.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) "

That event has no prior warning as listed by Jesus. We do not even know what the holy place is. One day we wake up and some will know this abomination has occurred. That is the first sign of the end, as written in Matthew 24, unless it is actually the last event, Jesus gives, which is my point.

I don't see the church in Matthew 24...

We do need to be careful not to read things, dates, into Scripture which are not necessarily there.....

 

[Davy]

After THE tribulation, but before the GREAT tribulation - the text makes it clear.

The text only mentions one tribulation, and it's the time of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21.

You can't try to add another one in that Scripture. The "beginning of sorrows" Jesus speaks of prior to that is not the tribulation He spoke of.

Jesus mentions both THE tribulation - the first 42 months , and the GREAT tribulation- the last 42 months.

The time prior to the "great tribulation" He mentioned is the "beginning of sorrows". That's a time not unlike any other time of history. Don't you remember what He said about hearing of wars and rumors of wars in that time? This world has had wars since the beginning. The tribulation will be different, because it will be a time when all wars have stopped and only the beast is in power over the whole world (Revelation 13:4-8).

He says, in verse 29 that after THE tribulation of those days - the first half - then the rapture occurs in verses 29 and 30.

Sorry, you cannot try to re-write The Bible, because Matthew 24:15-21 where He pointed to the time of "great tribulation" is PRIOR... to His coming later at Matthew 24:29-31.

What you are supporting is a doctrine of men called a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. That is about 'any' idea that supports the theory that Jesus comes to rapture His Church PRIOR... to the great tribulation.

Mid-trib, Pre-trib, really the same thing, because the Mid position is just prior... to the AOD being setup, which actually is the start of the "great tribulation".

 

[Davy]

I was pointing out the chronology of Matthew 24. You did not prove your points.

I've proven ALL... my points with valid Bible Scripture, because I always give more than one Scripture witness, and stick with the Scripture, as written instead of going off on some unrelated tangent like you and others do here. And the subject of Zechariah 14 is... the subject of Christ's 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord", which is... the subject of the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture.

 

[Davy]

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

This does not declare the full restoration. I asked you if this was the return of the Nation of Israel. So you do not view Israel as a current Nation? But it will be a nation after the Second Coming?

I well know what you asked, and what comparison to Israel you were 'trying'... to enforce.

Let me ask this, so do you believe 'today's nation state of Israel is Christ's Kingdom come?? even though the majority of Jews there still reject Him?? See how silly your comparison of today is?

 

[Davy]

Truly brethren, the more those on men's Amillennialist (and Preterist) doctrines expose what they believe, the further they get away from Bible Scripture and... common sense.

 

[amigo de christo]

Lol!

I thought ol truman had went incognito . There you are my friend .
Time to preach JESUS to all that has breath .

 

[Curtis]

The text only mentions one tribulation, and it's the time of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21.

You can't try to add another one in that Scripture. The "beginning of sorrows" Jesus speaks of prior to that is not the tribulation He spoke of.



The time prior to the "great tribulation" He mentioned is the "beginning of sorrows". That's a time not unlike any other time of history. Don't you remember what He said about hearing of wars and rumors of wars in that time? This world has had wars since the beginning. The tribulation will be different, because it will be a time when all wars have stopped and only the beast is in power over the whole world (Revelation 13:4-8).



Sorry, you cannot try to re-write The Bible, because Matthew 24:15-21 where He pointed to the time of "great tribulation" is PRIOR... to His coming later at Matthew 24:29-31.

What you are supporting is a doctrine of men called a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. That is about 'any' idea that supports the theory that Jesus comes to rapture His Church PRIOR... to the great tribulation.

Mid-trib, Pre-trib, really the same thing, because the Mid position is just prior... to the AOD being setup, which actually is the start of the "great tribulation".

Since Matthew 24:15 occurs in the middle of Daniels 70th week, it’s a mid trib event - thus everything that happens before verse 15 is the first 42 months, which is THE tribulation- and everything immediately after it, is the start of the last 42 months, aka the GREAT tribulation, such a the rapture in 24:30-31.

 

[Davy]

Since Matthew 24:15 occurs in the middle of Daniels 70th week, it’s a mid trib event - thus everything that happens before verse 15 is the first 42 months, which is THE tribulation- and everything immediately after it, is the start of the last 42 months, aka the GREAT tribulation, such a the rapture in 24:30-31.

I'll allow that, Matthew 24:15 is the start of the MID point of Daniel's 70th week of Daniel 9:27. That Matthew verse is about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in the temple in Jerusalem by the coming Antichrist.

Some treat the 'tribulation' as being the whole 7 years period of Daniel's "one week", but that's not accurate. The first half of the "one week" is going to be a time with all wars ended, and world peace with a one-world beast kingdom established over all nations, and all the world's problems solved by the coming pseudo-Christ, and he will rule from Jerusalem, and promote the building of the next temple, and re-establish the old covenant worship with sacrifices among the orthodox Jews. They will believe that false one is Messiah having come. The whole world will believe it, except Christ's faithful elect chosen from the foundation of the world (see Revelation 13:4-8). It's going to be a chicken in every pot for the deceived. Good times, they think. That... is NOT the "great tribulation" time Jesus was pointing to.

The tribulation is the LATTER HALF of Daniel's "one week", because it begins with the ENDING of the old covenant practices in Jerusalem, as that false Messiah is going to setup the "abomination of desolation" idol in the temple instead, and DEMAND all bow to it, or be killed (see end of Revelation 13 about the "another beast" and the "image of the beast"). That... is when tribulation will begin, because those of us who well know that first Messiah is going to be false, we know the world will hate us for not... bowing to him, nor his idol image. He will be official 'king of Babylon number 2', an 'ensample' of what king Nebuchadnezzar did in Daniel's day. The difference with this false Messsiah that's coming though, is that he is going to play Jesus in the last showing of Jesus Christ Superstar!

 

[Timtofly]

I don't see the church in Matthew 24...

We do need to be careful not to read things, dates, into Scripture which are not necessarily there.....

You should. Jesus gives a brief history of the church:

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

This is the historical record of the last 1991 years. Jesus was not saying they had to live for 1991 years. He said they needed to endure until physical death.

I agree with not adding dates. 70AD was never defined in Scripture like the Exodus of Egypt was. 70AD should not be a point of reference at all. It is ancient history. It is as meaningless today as being stuck in the wilderness for 40 years is meaningless today.

Moses led the children of Jacob out of Egypt, and it took 40 years to get Egypt out of Jacob. The Cross allowed humanity to physically enter Paradise. It took 40 years to get the old Temple customs out of Jacob.

A good history lesson, nothing more. God really did not purposely plan either 40 year time periods. Nor were they part of prophecy. Just part of the historical record.

 

[Timtofly]

I well know what you asked, and what comparison to Israel you were 'trying'... to enforce.

Let me ask this, so do you believe 'today's nation state of Israel is Christ's Kingdom come?? even though the majority of Jews there still reject Him?? See how silly your comparison of today is?

No, current Israel is not the Millennial Kingdom. The Millennium does not start until 42 months after the AoD, which is thrown into the LOF at the battle of Armageddon.

The fig tree is not the Millennium Kingdom.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

All the things have to happen between verse 15 and 31, between the fig tree parable and the end, before the Millennial Kingdom can start. But you state the fig tree is the last parable event to happen, no?

From verse 37 to the end of the chapter are just generic descriptions without any time references of events. It is just comparing the decades leading up to the end with other historical records.

Many claim or at least arrange their interpretations and attempt to make up their own scenarios of the years prior to the Second Coming.

 

[Davy]

No, current Israel is not the Millennial Kingdom. The Millennium does not start until 42 months after the AoD, which is thrown into the LOF at the battle of Armageddon.

Once again, we must have different Bibles, because my Bible (KJV) doesn't say anything... about a "Millennium" being thrown into the "LOF" (lake of fire). What it does say, in Revelation 20, is that Satan, death, hell, and anyone who's name is not written in the book of life is cast into that future "lake of fire" at the end... of the "thousand years" mentioned there.''

Also, the battle of Armageddon happens on the 'day' of Christ's future return, on the 7th Vial, and right then, His "thousand years" (i.e., the Millennium) reign with His elect starts over the unsaved nations.

The fig tree is not the Millennium Kingdom.

I never said it was; you're drifting into never-never land again.

The parable of the fig tree Jesus gave is about God's promise to make the house of Judah a nation again in the holy land, and not remove them again. The nation state of Israel was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., and the Romans scattered the Jews that were in Judea into the countries among the Gentiles. The Jews call that the Diaspora. That is what the setting out of the fig shoot and with it sprouting leaves is symbolic of, their return in 1948 to form the nation of Israel again. That happened with Jews of the "house of Judah" returning in great numbers to form that nation state of Israel today in the middle east. That parable was to be a time marker for what generation would see ALL those Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse about the end of this world, including the very last Sign He gave there of His future coming and gathering of His saints.

All the things have to happen between verse 15 and 31, between the fig tree parable and the end, before the Millennial Kingdom can start. But you state the fig tree is the last parable event to happen, no?

No, you're out of sequence again. Jesus gave His parable of the fig tree after... He had covered all those Signs of the End, the last Sign He gave being His future coming. The fig tree parable He commanded us to learn, that because it shows us the generation that will see His return, and it is related to the symbolic setting out of the 'fig tree', which represents a remnant of the house of Judah (Jews), per the Jeremiah 24 prophecy of the two baskets of figs.

Jer 24:5-6
5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
KJV

From verse 37 to the end of the chapter are just generic descriptions without any time references of events. It is just comparing the decades leading up to the end with other historical records.

Many claim or at least arrange their interpretations and attempt to make up their own scenarios of the years prior to the Second Coming.

By that, I can tell you really did not read it...

Matt 24:37
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

The Matthew 24:37-51 Scripture is Jesus comparing the 'day of HIS COMING to the deceived and rebellious who mocked Noah for building an ark. And then Jesus gives an analogy to the day of HIS COMING being like a thief breaking in, and the goodman of the house is to be on watch to not let the thief break in. All that is staying within the subject of His future return to gather His Church.

So are you just here to play around, or is your mind kind of drifting at times, losing focus? I'd prefer you have the latter problem, then I understand the problem you're having in keeping to the written Scriptures.

 

[NewMusic]

Also, the battle of Armageddon happens on the 'day' of Christ's future return, on the 7th Vial, and right then, His "thousand years" (i.e., the Millennium) reign with His elect starts over the unsaved nations.

The battle of Armageddon is the 6th vial. Not the 7th.

 

[NewMusic]

Regarding the fig tree, you guys are going beyond what is written. Again.


1 Cor 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.


This is what Jesus actually said, and what is written:

Matt 24:32 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near.
Matt 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Matt 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

There's no language here stating what you guys have said about the fig tree. You are supposing things that are not written. Even in the Jeremiah passage that Davy quotes from, it was not about a tree, but a couple baskets of figs. One good and the other bad. And in that Jeremiah passage, God tells Jeremiah explicitly what it represented. Those who went into captivity would be blessed by God and those who did not would be cursed. The gathering together again happened at the end of the 70 year captivity. Uhm, like, 2500 years ago.

You must learn to not go beyond what is written.

You have a personal imagination that the Fig tree in this passage represents "a regathering of Israel", and all the other things you add from your own imagination, but the scriptures do not state such things.

IF you can find explicit language in the bible telling us to interpret a fig tree DIFFERENTLY than what Jesus actually said in Matthew 24, please provide.

But the Matthew 24 bit is explicit. Go read it again, and do not go beyond what is written. If you cannot understand what Jesus said (as written by Matthew), ask and we can help you understand the subject and predicate, but do not add your own ideas and words to the holy scriptures, thus going beyond what is actually written.

Jesus said the generation that sees all these things (What things? All the bad things He had just gotten done explaining in the verses prior!) then know that THAT generation shall see His return.

The analogy about when you see the branch become tender and put forth leaves you know that summer is near, ..... refers explicitly to the generation that sees all the miserable things that He just outlined, and that those people who see these things will also see His return. Nothing more. You think there's more? Then give the scripture(s). Jeremiah certainly is not it. You're WAY OFF base.

 

[NewMusic]

And the bit about 1948.... that was 73 years ago! Longer than any generation I'm aware of in bible language. So again, your interpretation of "that generation" is not holding up to scripture even in the loosest of terms.