Who can speak to the text?

[ScottA]

Angels behold the Face of God and as Divine beings do not have the nature to sin (James 1:14)

Just wanted to offer a bit of clarification on James 1:14:

It is not that angels "do not have the nature to sin," but rather that sin is only made manifest in the flesh, which is to say, in the world. This occurs as Jesus clarified, as sin originates "from the heart", i.e., from the kingdom "within." As the scriptures tell us, this sin which originates from the kingdom occurs by the angels, through "a third of mankind" in all the earth, "bringing forth death."

 

[Mantis]

I think angels have free will like we do. They can sin.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The irony here is I've been trying to get @Taken to deal with 2 Peter 2:4 for over a week and all he could do is speak about everything but 2 Peter 2:4, agree patience is low, hence why I moved to another forum where I am now having constructive dialogue with honest Christians who actually want to deal with the text and not run off to Gen 6 or a ventriloquist serpent.



I did not write 2 peter chapter 2. Peter did. He sets the context and if any of you here cannot be open and honest but rather say the context to this chapters is some supernatural agent of evil having fallen from heaven is some heavenly rebellion ( Matthew 6:10 makes that impossible!!!) then I am wasting my time with anything you all say.

Be honest that's all I am asking, be honest - say "I dont know" or say "I do know the true context of 2 Peter 2 but don't make stuff up just because it please you to do so...that's @Taken approach and @Mungo etc. They all just make stuff up rather than dealing with the actual text.



My word the ignorance is so confronting. Show me the text of angels coming down from heaven to have sex with humans - have you been watching Percy Jackson movies?

Your humility and civility in dealing with brothers and sisters is truly underwhelming!!!!!!!!

So to disagree with your concept to you is being unopen and dishonest!

But as to angles or spirit beings having sex with women:

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


Only 3 times does "bene-elohim" appear in the OT. The other two times it is definitely angels, and there is no legitimate reason to define it differently here! We already see men in verse 1.

If like many would say that the sons of God were the offspring of seth (righteous ones) that poses many problems!
1. couldn't be too righteous if they married the daughters of Cain as they imply.
2. Were there no daughters of Seth?
3. Were none of them fair?

giants is a poor translation based on the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Nephilim. They used the word "titanus" which in English is Titan or giant. It is better defined as marvellous, excellent and noble, a hybrid human/angel offspring to corrupt the line of men to keep Messiah from being born.

Also these giants were gibborim- mighty, brave, warriors. And of reknown- famous! Now how could mere men marrying mere women produce this? Especially righteous men marrying unrighteous women?

No the plain language says these were angles who left their first habitation as spoken in Jude and are now locked in chains of darkness.

Also as extra-biblical evidence: All the pagan religions that sprung from the dispersion of babel have tales of the gods and demi-gods and the demi gods were the offspring of the Gods and women. Which is simply the corruption of what actually took place that caused the flood!
1.

 

[Enoch111]

That should be "True" or "False" not "Yes" or "No" in the poll. And it is false.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That should be "True" or "False" not "Yes" or "No" in the poll. And it is false.

Well the term used simply generically is simply an envoy or messenger. but used in SCripture it always refers to the angels. Once again people only looking shallowly and not going past a concordance.

 

[face2face]

Is your point here to say that angels (celestial beings) cannot sin, and therefore when Peter spoke of messengers being cast into hell, he is talking about people?

Correct 2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 are traditionally used to support fallen angel theology, however as proven their basis is extremely weak (they have no basis) given the context and echoes of Numbers 16.

What would you say it is about "messengers" that causes them to be "in strength and power being greater"? And greater than what or whom?

Isn't the point of this passage to say that God didn't spare the angels, and He is not going to spare man? Not even the angels - greater in power and strength - dare do what men do!

No the point is Peter reflecting on a extreme low point in Israel's history where false messengers rose up to challenge God's elected leaders and authority and were judged thoroughly. 2 Peter 2:1 sets the context and scene which is then followed by OT examples.

One other question, what would be the significance of God saying He didn't spare the messengers, and He didn't spare the old world, but only saved Noah and his family? Why make a distinction between "messengers" and "the old world"?

Much love!

Can you think of a Scripture in the NT where Jesus promised he would come quickly to judge false teachers?

God didn't spare those OT messengers or the Old World because of their rebellion against God.

Hope that helps.

 

[face2face]

Your Post #1 was an invitation to DEAL with 2 Peter 2:4.
2 Pet 2:4

Your Comment #1 gave your view that Angels do not SIN.

2 Pet 2:4 IMO doesn’t need to be DEALT with, to decide or challenge Gods decision or What God Chose to DO with the “ungodly”...(angels & mankind).

2 Peter 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

What I chose to deal with, was to DISAGREE with YOUR VIEW, (that angels DO NOT SIN). Not only does 2 Pet 2 expressly reveal some angels DID Sin, I gave other Scripture of angels who Sinned.

You claiming that IS DISHONEST is laughable.

Your hurting, I get that, but you had ample opportunity to deal with this subject honestly and openly and in this thread and others but you gave the promise of something but came up with nothing. Not once have you actually dealt with the text or context, a verse grabber you ran away with anything that looks like angels sinning without truly searching the Scriptures. Post #17 is the evidence you need - study it...pull it apart and learn truth.

 

[face2face]

That should be "True" or "False" not "Yes" or "No" in the poll. And it is false.

I'll accept that one Enoch! So your answer is false or a no in this case.

 

[face2face]

I think angels have free will like we do. They can sin.

Luke 4:10 They do the Will of God perfectly.

 

[face2face]

Your humility and civility in dealing with brothers and sisters is truly underwhelming!!!!!!!!

So to disagree with your concept to you is being unopen and dishonest!

But as to angles or spirit beings having sex with women:

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


Only 3 times does "bene-elohim" appear in the OT. The other two times it is definitely angels, and there is no legitimate reason to define it differently here! We already see men in verse 1.

If like many would say that the sons of God were the offspring of seth (righteous ones) that poses many problems!
1. couldn't be too righteous if they married the daughters of Cain as they imply.
2. Were there no daughters of Seth?
3. Were none of them fair?

giants is a poor translation based on the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Nephilim. They used the word "titanus" which in English is Titan or giant. It is better defined as marvellous, excellent and noble, a hybrid human/angel offspring to corrupt the line of men to keep Messiah from being born.

Also these giants were gibborim- mighty, brave, warriors. And of reknown- famous! Now how could mere men marrying mere women produce this? Especially righteous men marrying unrighteous women?

No the plain language says these were angles who left their first habitation as spoken in Jude and are now locked in chains of darkness.

Also as extra-biblical evidence: All the pagan religions that sprung from the dispersion of babel have tales of the gods and demi-gods and the demi gods were the offspring of the Gods and women. Which is simply the corruption of what actually took place that caused the flood!
1.

Sorry Ronald we are dealing with the Scriptural evidence for angels sinning which to date we have proven 2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 is dealing with Numbers 16 as per post #17.

I am not interested in discussing ancient mythology in this thread, if you want to start another feel free to do so.

 

[Mantis]

Luke 4:10 They do the Will of God perfectly.

A third of them didn't. I think the other two thirds saw the consequences and that is why they do his will perfectly.

 

[face2face]

Just wanted to offer a bit of clarification on James 1:14:

It is not that angels "do not have the nature to sin," but rather that sin is only made manifest in the flesh, which is to say, in the world. This occurs as Jesus clarified, as sin originates "from the heart", i.e., from the kingdom "within." As the scriptures tell us, this sin which originates from the kingdom occurs by the angels, through "a third of mankind" in all the earth, "bringing forth death."

Your insights and approach to this thread has impressed me greatly. I must however disagree on your first point about the nature of man i.e flesh and blood (capable of sin) compared to the divine nature i.e Spirit (unable to sin)

Your thoughts are based in Jesus' teaching in Mark 7:21 & Jeremiah 17:9 to show its the human fleshly heart (or carnal mind) which is intended as the seat of all wickedness. If angels had the ability to sin (which they dont) then Romans 6:23 would apply, otherwise mankind could claim God to be unjust if His judgement on angels were anything different than that of man.

Romans 8 flesh v spirit is a case in point & Galatians 5:16-18 (lust of the flesh) and so on.

F2F.

 

[face2face]

A third of them didn't. I think the other two thirds saw the consequences and that is why they do his will perfectly.

This type of response is now in question.

 

[Mantis]

This type of response is now in question.

What do you mean?

 

[ScottA]

Your insights and approach to this thread has impressed me greatly. I must however disagree on your first point about the nature of man i.e flesh and blood (capable of sin) compared to the divine nature i.e Spirit (unable to sin)

Your thoughts are based in Jesus' teaching in Mark 7:21 & Jeremiah 17:9 to show its the human fleshly heart (or carnal mind) which is intended as the seat of all wickedness. If angels had the ability to sin (which they dont) then Romans 6:23 would apply, otherwise mankind could claim God to be unjust if His judgement on angels were anything different than that of man.

Romans 8 flesh v spirit is a case in point & Galatians 5:16-18 (lust of the flesh) and so on.

F2F.

How do I say this nicely and with respect? Lord knows I want to..

That perspective simply falls short of fully understanding just what the world is. The world (and therefore men of flesh) have no product--they/it produces nothing, not even sin. Everything in the world is the result of things on high made manifest for the purpose of judgement, the last will and testament upon the evil rebellion against God in the heavenly realm.

As for Galations 5:16-18, Paul is speaking of walking in the spirit of God, not the evil spirits that one inherits from their father the Devil. In other words, as if to say: "Do not walk after the spirit of your father the Devil, who is cast down to the earth, who once ruled your flesh, but rather walk after the spirit of the new creation that has come from your Father in heaven."

 

[Hidden In Him]

Your humility and civility in dealing with brothers and sisters is truly underwhelming!!!!!!!!

Agreed. Put more plainly, this guy is simply a jerk, and a detriment to any forum he posts on. Non-intelligent, argumentative, heretical, dismissive, petty, childish, and his content is worthless.

@face2face. Go contaminate some other forum with your stupidity and bad attitude. This is the only kind of response you are worthy of, and the only one you are going to get from anyone with any sense.

What's your response: Grow up and stop acting like a child, or just keep posting more stupidity? I'm guessing the latter, in fact I'd lay $100 down on it if anybody were silly enough to take me up on the bet.

Go ahead. Post more worthlessness now. ZERO you have posted is of the LEAST value here, and I'm guessing the same holds true for 99% of the rest of your 569 "contributions" to this site.

 

[marks]

Correct 2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 are traditionally used to support fallen angel theology, however as proven their basis is extremely weak (they have no basis) given the context and echoes of Numbers 16.



No the point is Peter reflecting on a extreme low point in Israel's history where false messengers rose up to challenge God's elected leaders and authority and were judged thoroughly. 2 Peter 2:1 sets the context and scene which is then followed by OT examples.



Can you think of a Scripture in the NT where Jesus promised he would come quickly to judge false teachers?

God didn't spare those OT messengers or the Old World because of their rebellion against God.

Hope that helps.

Now you aren't engaging with the text.

Why are "messengers" greater in strength and power? And greater than whom?

Why does God distinguish between the "messengers", the "old world", and Noah, one of 8 people saved?

Much love!

 

[marks]

How do I say this nicely and with respect? Lord knows I want to..

This I like!

:)

 

[marks]

Jesus' teaching in Mark 7:21 & Jeremiah 17:9 to show its the human fleshly heart (or carnal mind) which is intended as the seat of all wickedness.

Not at all!

John 8:44 KJV
44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Now you aren't engaging with the text.

Why are "messengers" greater in strength and power? And greater than whom?

Are you basing this on 2 Peter 2:4? Where do you get the "greater in strength and power" from?

Why does God distinguish between the "messengers", the "old world", and Noah, one of 8 people saved?

Much love!

Firstly the messengers of Korah, Dathan & Abiram and the 250 princes with them are likened to Genesis 6 & Genesis 19

1. You have Israel being saved from false messengers Numbers 16
2. You have Noah and family being saved by evil thinking people Genesis 6:5
3. You have Lot and daughters saved by the wickedness of Genesis 19:6

Peter is using OT examples of apostasy to prove the reality of 2 Peter 2:1

Number 1 false teachers within the camp
Number 2 was threatening to remove the seed of the woman from the earth
Number 3 such was the influence that Lot's wife succumb to their influence and looked back

All three examples should teach us that Christianity will adopt false teachers and their teachings.

i.e angels can sin.