HERESY?

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Thanks Post.
I always find this type of information to be such a blessing.
This could be one of the reasons why the Apostles decided to begin celebrating the 1st day of the week instead of the Sabbath?

yes -- they were commemorating the day He rose
later, the church began distancing itself from Judaism as much as it could, which is more or less how we got to celebrating Eostare instead of Pascha ((tho the 'easter' word doesn't show up at all until medieval times, in German translations: all Latin and all Greek manuscripts, ever, have 'Pascha'))
so as centuries passed and anti-semetic thought grew in the Church, different justifications for congregating on the 8th day = 1st day rather than the 7th day, as the Jews did, arose. but from the very beginning Christians met on the day He rose, called it 'the 8th day' and understood it to be very different than the 7th-day sabbath. we were not 'replacing' or 'changing' sabbath; we were understanding Christ Himself to be 'our rest' and meeting beause of Him, not because of a law.
 
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GodsGrace

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yes -- they were commemorating the day He rose
later, the church began distancing itself from Judaism as much as it could, which is more or less how we got to celebrating Eostare instead of Pascha ((tho the 'easter' word doesn't show up at all until medieval times, in German translations: all Latin and all Greek manuscripts, ever, have 'Pascha'))
so as centuries passed and anti-semetic thought grew in the Church, different justifications for congregating on the 8th day = 1st day rather than the 7th day, as the Jews did, arose. but from the very beginning Christians met on the day He rose, called it 'the 8th day' and understood it to be very different than the 7th-day sabbath. we were not 'replacing' or 'changing' sabbath; we were understanding Christ Himself to be 'our rest' and meeting beause of Him, not because of a law.
Agreed.
In Italian Easter is PASQUA.
And to distinguish, Passover is PASAQ.

Call it what you will, it means the same.
 
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post

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yes -- they were commemorating the day He rose
later, the church began distancing itself from Judaism as much as it could, which is more or less how we got to celebrating Eostare instead of Pascha ((tho the 'easter' word doesn't show up at all until medieval times, in German translations: all Latin and all Greek manuscripts, ever, have 'Pascha'))
so as centuries passed and anti-semetic thought grew in the Church, different justifications for congregating on the 8th day = 1st day rather than the 7th day, as the Jews did, arose. but from the very beginning Christians met on the day He rose, called it 'the 8th day' and understood it to be very different than the 7th-day sabbath. we were not 'replacing' or 'changing' sabbath; we were understanding Christ Himself to be 'our rest' and meeting beause of Him, not because of a law.

@GodsGrace

Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue with Trypho' from ~ 155-160AD details the reasonings and doctrine around 'the 8th day'

link to English translation here:
Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

Trypho was a prominent Jew essentially giving the argument of the Pharisees who believed Christians should be practicing Moses' law
it is debated whether Trypho is Greek transliteration of the famous rabbi Tarfon -- Jewish scholars generally reject this and suppose Trypho is an imagnary character invented by Justin Martyr ((you might guess why they would say this)). in either case, whether Trypho was a real person or only a literary device, the intellectual discussion about doctrine would remain the same.
 

Philip James

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Wrong again.
The Passover meal on Thursday was for Christ because He would not be able to attend the actual Passover meal that would occur on Friday evening. He died on the Cross about the time the Passover lambs were being killed on the evening before the Passover on Saturday.

Hello Grailhunter,

I suggest that Christ offered His sacrifice at precisely the time proscribed by Moses:

You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then, with the whole assembly of Israel present, it shall be slaughtered during the evening twilight.

And that it is precisely this hour that is referred to in the Gospel here:

When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles.

That the Jews had a tradition of slaughtering the lambs later that DAY is beside the point. Jesus offered Himself as the Paschal Lamb in the first Eucharistic sacrifice at precisely the moment that Moses had instructed ;)

Pax et Bonum!
 

Grailhunter

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Hello Grailhunter,

I suggest that Christ offered His sacrifice at precisely the time proscribed by Moses:

You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then, with the whole assembly of Israel present, it shall be slaughtered during the evening twilight.

And that it is precisely this hour that is referred to in the Gospel here:

When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles.

That the Jews had a tradition of slaughtering the lambs later that DAY is beside the point. Jesus offered Himself as the Paschal Lamb in the first Eucharistic sacrifice at precisely the moment that Moses had instructed ;)

Pax et Bonum!

I am sorry I missed this...not ignoring you.
You are correct the Lamb would be slaughtered on the evening of the 14th day of Nisan. That would be Friday and Passover would be on the 15th day of Nisan....the Last Supper occurred on the 13th day of Nisan.
 

Philip James

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I am sorry I missed this...not ignoring you.
You are correct the Lamb would be slaughtered on the evening of the 14th day of Nisan. That would be Friday and Passover would be on the 15th day of Nisan....the Last Supper occurred on the 13th day of Nisan.

the 14th began at sundown (twilight) on Thursday.. Friday day is still the14th until sundown when the 15th begins...

Pax et Bonum!
 
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1stCenturyLady

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I'd rather you lie to me than kill me.

Actually, lying and murder are both mortal sins. I've never known a murderer. But I have been around pathological liars. Now I can't tolerate even someone not doing what they say they will do. I actually have PTSD against any lies, even white lies - changing their mind, but not telling me.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

But God is so holy that to Him everything is sin.

This is one of the reasons I don't agree with those that say they never sin.

GG, I see you want to continue to interpret 1 John 1:8 as most do on this forum, but then you will never see how God really sees you - either a sinner, or a child of God. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are NOT Christians in the slightest, and are written about because of the REASON John wrote this epistle in the first place - gnosticism, 1 John 4:1-3. 1 John 1:7 is a Christian, and the bottom line is in Jesus we are sinless. But we must folllow Him, and when He said we have to forgive others to get our minor, little sins forgiven, then that is what we need to do. Just love people and do not hold anything against other Christians. Its not easy, and only comes with spiritual maturity, and why unforgiveness can really damage our souls causing a root of bitterness. But staying forgiving lets us remain sinless.

Also, for baby Christians, they are sinless as long as they live up to the light they have. Philippians 3:16.

We must sin a few times each day...it's just that when we think of sin, we think of big sins.
But there are tiny sins too.
I don't think that I, or those that believe as I do, want to justify sin.
I think we see God as so holy that to Him we sin a lot...even though we may not think so.

The more we get close to God...
The more we see sin.

And the more He loves us for trying harder when temptation strikes....

Remember:

Matthew 7:21-23.



But God is so holy that to Him everything is sin.

This is one of the reasons I don't agree with those that say they never sin.
We must sin a few times each day...it's just that when we think of sin, we think of big sins.
But there are tiny sins too.
I don't think that I, or those that believe as I do, want to justify sin.
I think we see God as so holy that to Him we sin a lot...even though we may not think so.

The more we get close to God...
The more we see sin.

And the more He loves us for trying harder when temptation strikes....
 

Grailhunter

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Yes, everyone who is not in God’s “book of life” will perish in Gehenna.
Matthew 10:28....
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”

Most people know the first part of this scripture, like they do with John 3:16, but what is in the second part, that is not often mentioned.
What does it say? That God can “destroy” body and soul in Gehenna, which is not hell. It is a place called “the second death”....called that for a reason. It is a death from which no one is resurrected....unlike the first kind of death, inherited from Adam, it is eternal death which is contrasted with eternal life. No one ever comes out of that place where they are “destroyed”.

John 3:16
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

Those exercising faith in the son of God, will gain life, but those we don’t will not go to hell, but will “perish”....which means that they will be destroyed.


No, it is reference to the original Gehenna....Jerusalem’s rubbish dump, where the maggots had a never ending supply of food in that place. The fires were kept burning by the addition of brimstone. It was a symbolism, not an actual place.

The original Valley of Hinnom was used by apostate Israel to sacrifice their children in the fire to Molech...God’s response to that....complete disgust!
Jeremiah 7:21...
“They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”

If God stopped this practice because it would never occur to him to command such a thing, then why would he do that himself to his own children?


This is why Jesus said we had to get to “know the only true God and the one whom he sent, Jesus Christ”...(John 17:3)....if you believe that God would send souls to a torture chamber for all eternity, then you do not know him at all.


Who is “him”? I do not believe that “God” became a mere human because the Bible does not ever say that. I believe that God sent his “only begotten son” to become, not a mere human but a perfect sinless human who could redeem mankind by sacrificing his life for us. His sacrifice cancels out our sin. God never needed to leave heaven to rescue mankind. His willing servant, Jesus was more than willing to do whatever was necessary to undo all the damage caused by Satan and the ones he managed to deceived.


Now that right there, is all messed up. There are no “souls” in heaven....show me a single scripture that says so. Jesus’ in his pre-human existence was never a “soul”...he was a “spirit” which is something completely different according to the meaning of the original language words.

Jesus existed as a spirit being in heaven “with” his Father before Abraham was even born.
Being human did not automatically make Jesus sinful....was Adam sinful when God created him? No! Disobedience is what introduced sin and death.


I have no desire to go to heaven, because God never intended for any human to go to heaven, originally. He put us here on earth to live forever. We fear death because it was never meant to happen.

Adam’s sin was what caused death....so Jesus came as a perfect sinless human to buy back what Adam lost. The Kingdom of God with Christ as King, was for the purpose of reconciling sinful humans back with their God and Creator. Only those taken into the new covenant will go to heaven, whist the rest of us, including all who are resurrected, will slowly discard our sinful state and at the end of the 1000 year rule of God’s kingdom, will stand sinless for one final test. (Revelation 20:1-3)


We are to serve God....not the other way around. Jesus served his God and also served the interests of his disciples. God serves no one....that is why he is God.


We did no such thing....Adam sinned, we did not, that is why our inheritance is not fair, and why God sent Jesus to redeem us out of that situation. We have found ourselves in sinful flesh through no fault on our part. Sin can lead us into activities that will cause God to reject us. But he made his word available to those who wanted to stay in God’s favour, despite their sinful state, because he tells how not to sin. It’s also why God provided Jesus as a “mediator” so that communication with our God is still possible in spite of our sinful imperfections.


What????? No idea what that means....


The insinuation is that dead people are not really dead.....that some living, conscious part of them leaves to go somewhere else......and also that all Christians can go to heaven....neither of those things are true.....yet almost all of Christendom teaches that this is the truth.

The Bible does not teach about 95% of what most “Christians” today, believe. The “weeds” of Jesus parable have indeed done their job, substituting false beliefs that have distorted who God is, and why Jesus even came to offer his life. Any wonder there is such confusion!

When I was part of that confusion, I couldn’t understand any of it because it made no sense.....now that I have studied the Bible for myself, everything has an answer, and a place in the gigantic jigsaw puzzle we call this life. Now I understand where everything belongs. And it’s really quite simple, not complicated at all.....but Christendom has people believing that you need a degree in theology to understand it all....not so. The truth is so simple a child can understand it.

If any of this Jehovah's Witness dribble about hell, has anyone confused, here is nearly 100 New Testament scriptures about eternal punishment. Now most of it is about fire of some sort....and it probably is, but if they knew about something worse than being roasted for eternity, they may have went with that.

Nearly 100 New Testament Bible verses about eternal punishment
What Does the Bible Say About Eternal Punishment?
 

1stCenturyLady

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It does have a more complicated definition.
God is Holy does not mean God is set apart to serve Himself.

But for US that's what holy means...
we are not holy as God is holy.

I agree re sanctification.
At the end of the road is glorification...but that's at our death.

When you say "we are not holy as God is holy," then that means you don't believe we can be this side of death, again like most of the forum, even though Jesus and the apostle Peter said to be. 1 Peter 1:15-16.

And glorification is the name of the long process you've been thinking is sanctification, because that is what denominations tell us. Our nature which is born again NOW is divine, meaning becoming like Christ. 2 Peter 1:2-4. That is why it is glorification now, not sanctification. Sanctification is past and occurred at the same time as justification, and why it isn't even mentioned in Romans 8:29-30. When we are cleansed of all unrighteousness God sets us apart, sanctifies us, for His good works.
 

Grailhunter

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the 14th began at sundown (twilight) on Thursday.. Friday day is still the14th until sundown when the 15th begins...

Pax et Bonum!

Well yes.....Passover occurs on the 15th of Nisan....always and always on a full moon it starts the evening before.
The 14th of Nisan was on a Friday.
The Last Supper on a Thursday.
 

1stCenturyLady

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If any of this Jehovah's Witness dribble about hell, has anyone confused, here is nearly 100 New Testament scriptures about eternal punishment. Now most of it is about fire of some sort....and it probably is, but if they knew about something worse than being roasted for eternity, they may have went with that.

Nearly 100 New Testament Bible verses about eternal punishment
What Does the Bible Say About Eternal Punishment?

Most of these scriptures refer to the fire burning forever; and not that they will burn forever. That is, except for Satan and his angels, but they will suffer forever because they are immortal beings. Humans are not, until we are born again and put on immortality. Unless when the unrighteous are raised from the dead, their body is also made immortal. Then they also would suffer forever. I don't intend to find out for sure.
 

Philip James

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Well yes.....Passover occurs on the 15th of Nisan....always and always on a full moon it starts the evening before.
The 14th of Nisan was on a Friday.
The Last Supper on a Thursday.

Moses proscribes the 14th for passover Exodus 12:6-10

You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then, with the whole assembly of Israel present, it shall be slaughtered during the evening twilight.


They shall take some of its blood and apply it to the two doorposts and the lintel of every house in which they partake of the lamb.


That same night they shall eat its roasted flesh with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.


It shall not be eaten raw or boiled, but roasted whole, with its head and shanks and inner organs.


None of it must be kept beyond the next morning; whatever is left over in the morning shall be burned up.

Days in the Israelite calendar begin at sundown!

The 14th begins sundown (Thursday) and ends sundown (Friday). Jesus, of course, fulfills the Law of Moses and offers Himself as the paschal lamb at precisely the time Moses lays out.. 'when the hour had come'. That the Jews observed it at a different time than that set out by Moses is immaterial...

Pax et Bonum!
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Moses proscribes the 14th for passover Exodus 12:6-10

You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then, with the whole assembly of Israel present, it shall be slaughtered during the evening twilight.


They shall take some of its blood and apply it to the two doorposts and the lintel of every house in which they partake of the lamb.


That same night they shall eat its roasted flesh with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.


It shall not be eaten raw or boiled, but roasted whole, with its head and shanks and inner organs.


None of it must be kept beyond the next morning; whatever is left over in the morning shall be burned up.

Days in the Israelite calendar begin at sundown!

The 14th begins sundown (Thursday) and ends sundown (Friday). Jesus, of course, fulfills the Law of Moses and offers Himself as the paschal lamb at precisely the time Moses lays out.. 'when the hour had come'. That the Jews observed it at a different time than that set out by Moses is immaterial...

Pax et Bonum!

Right, Passover is on the 14th, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread starts on the 15th. But seeing as the Passover meal (the Last Supper) is at the beginning of the 14th at sundown, it is our western thinking evening of the 13th. Jesus was crucified on the 14th and died on the 14th at 3:00 pm, the Roman 9th hour.

There were also more than one "Sabbaths" that week, and the "preparation day" was for the "high" Sabbath (feast) not the weekly Sabbath.

It is also believed that Jesus rose from the dead on Nissan 17 and it was Sunday. Therefore, the crucifixion could have been on Thursday.
 
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Grailhunter

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Most of these scriptures refer to the fire burning forever; and not that they will burn forever. That is, except for Satan and his angels, but they will suffer forever because they are immortal beings. Humans are not, until we are born again and put on immortality. Unless when the unrighteous are raised from the dead, their body is also made immortal. Then they also would suffer forever.

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And there is....
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Most references to hell refer to fire and eternal punishment. No scriptures on temporary punishment. References to Gehenna are a physical representation. But still not quite as many as I thought was on that site.
 

Grailhunter

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Moses proscribes the 14th for passover Exodus 12:6-10

You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then, with the whole assembly of Israel present, it shall be slaughtered during the evening twilight.


They shall take some of its blood and apply it to the two doorposts and the lintel of every house in which they partake of the lamb.


That same night they shall eat its roasted flesh with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.


It shall not be eaten raw or boiled, but roasted whole, with its head and shanks and inner organs.


None of it must be kept beyond the next morning; whatever is left over in the morning shall be burned up.

Days in the Israelite calendar begin at sundown!

The 14th begins sundown (Thursday) and ends sundown (Friday). Jesus, of course, fulfills the Law of Moses and offers Himself as the paschal lamb at precisely the time Moses lays out.. 'when the hour had come'. That the Jews observed it at a different time than that set out by Moses is immaterial...

Pax et Bonum!

He was the symbolic and divine sacrificial lamb and He was slain around 3:00 pm on the 7th of April, (Friday)
around the time that the actual sacrificial lambs were being slain. The Passover dinner for Him was held on the evening of the 6th of April...Thursday and they had a sacrificial lamb. The next day, the actual Passover lambs would be slaughtered and eaten on Friday before dusk for the Passover dinners. Christ was the sacrificial lamb for the New Covenant and He was crucified during the day on Friday, about the time the sacrificial lambs for Passover were being killed. So Christ would not be observing the normal processes of the Passover and the Passover meal, and as it turned out, the same was true for the Apostles because they would be in hiding, not sacrificing lambs at the Temple. They may have arranged for food to be brought to them, but they probably were not sacrificing lambs while Christ was being crucified.

The meal that Christ attended was a meal that the Gospels refer to as the Passover meal, a Seder meal, put it was not the actual Jewish Passover meal. As I explained, the next day was the Jewish day of preparation for the Passover...Friday...and the Jewish Passover meal would occur then. This was the day that Christ was slain. Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:14, 31, and 42, all confirm that the day that Christ was crucified was on the Day of Preparation, which was Friday, April 7th 30 AD. John 18:28 also proves that early Friday morning, the day of Christ’s crucifixion, when Christ was taken to the Praetorium the Apostles had not eaten the actual Passover meal yet. The morning cock had crowed for Peter John 18:27 So when Christ was before Pilate in the Praetorium the Apostles did not enter because they did not want to be defiled because they wanted to participate in the actual Passover meal before the start of Passover. Another mystery solved....
 

1stCenturyLady

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And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

But I could read that as meaning "the place of eternal punishment."

As I said, I hope I never find out for sure. And there are enough scriptures on either side of the issue for me to not get pompous and judge another denomination's beliefs on this issue. I rarely join these debates on this particular "heresy." Or even know which side is right.
 
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Grailhunter

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But I could read that as meaning "the place of eternal punishment."

As I said, I hope I never find our for sure. And there are enough scriptures on either side of the issue for me to not get pompous and judge another denomination's beliefs on this issue. I rarely join these debates on this particular "heresy." Or even know which side is right.

What else did Christ and Apostles believe it was?
It is usually about fire and the punishment is eternal.
Now is it actually fire or are they giving an image of the worst thing they can describe? If it was something worse than fire, how could they describe it.
There is nothing in there about a temporary "time out" And the death of oblivion would pretty much be the norm for any other religion....Pagan?
 

1stCenturyLady

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What else did Christ and Apostles believe it was?
It is usually about fire and the punishment is eternal.
Now is it actually fire or are they giving an image of the worst thing they can describe? If it was something worse than fire, how could they describe it.
There is nothing in there about a temporary "time out" And the death of oblivion would pretty much be the norm for any other religion....Pagan?

"Destroyed" That would be annihilation. Except for the devil and his angels which hell was made for (not us)
 

Grailhunter

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"Destroyed" That would be annihilation. Except for the devil and his angels which hell was made for (not us)

Gnashing of teeth
The parable of rich man and Lazarus .....
Oblivion would be a welcome alternative to what is described....not even much of a punishment, you would not know about it.
Really nothing to fear....why worry about it.

It is one of those things that you wonder why hell and heaven were not better described.
But whether it is hell fire or lake of fire....it seems to be a common understanding.