HERESY?

[Davy]

Gnashing of teeth
The parable of rich man and Lazarus .....
Oblivion would be a welcome alternative to what is described....not even much of a punishment, you would not know about it.
Really nothing to fear....why worry about it.

It is one of those things that you wonder why hell and heaven were not better described.
But whether it is hell fire or lake of fire....it seems to be a common understanding.

The "lake of fire" is a one time event at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. Many tend to confuse it with the abode of the wicked called 'hell'. But note at the end of Rev.20 the abode of hell is to go into... that future "lake of fire".

So those who are cast to the "outer darkness" with the gnashing of teeth being the result, is not that "lake of fire" event, not yet. It simply means to be in a place like the 'rich man' of Luke 16, a place of separation, and burning which the rich man complained about to Abraham.

Per Revelation 22:14-15, the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city, which suggests that is the "outer darkness" Jesus was talking about...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Thus I see that time being the "thousand years" period of Christ's future reign with His elect. Those are not destroyed in the lake of fire, they are in that place of separation which that "outer darkness" outside the gates of the new Jerusalem represents.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

Because that "tree of life" is shown inside those gates of the city, it reveals the future Millennium reign by Christ when God's River and the Tree of Life will return back to this earth, per Ezekiel 47 and in the start of the Revelation 22 chapter. So there's that change upon this earth in our future, but the wicked are still there. That is pointing to the "thousand years" of Rev.20, even though this is written in Rev.22.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello Grailhunter,

I suggest that Christ offered His sacrifice at precisely the time proscribed by Moses:

You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, and then, with the whole assembly of Israel present, it shall be slaughtered during the evening twilight.

And that it is precisely this hour that is referred to in the Gospel here:

When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles.

That the Jews had a tradition of slaughtering the lambs later that DAY is beside the point. Jesus offered Himself as the Paschal Lamb in the first Eucharistic sacrifice at precisely the moment that Moses had instructed

Pax et Bonum!

If I may, where does the word Eucharistic come from?

Also. If one looks at the list of events. There are actually 5 animals slaughtered on the day of atonement. And one is let go and taken outsider the camp as the scapegoat.

So which one did Christ fulfill?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The "lake of fire" is a one time event at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. Many tend to confuse it with the abode of the wicked called 'hell'. But note at the end of Rev.20 the abode of hell is to go into... that future "lake of fire".

So those who are cast to the "outer darkness" with the gnashing of teeth being the result, is not that "lake of fire" event, not yet. It simply means to be in a place like the 'rich man' of Luke 16, a place of separation, and burning which the rich man complained about to Abraham.

Per Revelation 22:14-15, the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city, which suggests that is the "outer darkness" Jesus was talking about...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Thus I see that time being the "thousand years" period of Christ's future reign with His elect. Those are not destroyed in the lake of fire, they are in that place of separation which that "outer darkness" outside the gates of the new Jerusalem represents.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

Because that "tree of life" is shown inside those gates of the city, it reveals the future Millennium reign by Christ when God's River and the Tree of Life will return back to this earth, per Ezekiel 47 and in the start of the Revelation 22 chapter. So there's that change upon this earth in our future, but the wicked are still there. That is pointing to the "thousand years" of Rev.20, even though this is written in Rev.22.

This is a scary post.

Hades is not a lake of fire. And it is not the baptism of fire John the Baptist spoke of. Where the fire is never quenched.

The hell jesus spoke of was so bad and so horrific that Jesus said it would be better to pluck your eye out of cut your hand off then to even risk committing a sin that could send you there.

Hades is not that place.. Those in hades will still stand before Christ it is no permanent. The permanent place is where Jesus sends those who are delivered to him from Hades

The second death is what is so horrific it is better to cut our eye out then risk even the possibility of going there

 

[Marymog]

It is isn't it?

Yes, it is fascinating that a person has convinced you that they speak the unadulterated truth from the word of God. You fell for it!

None the less....If you truly believe that aunty jane speaks from the word of God you surely must be one of her disciples?

 

[Grailhunter]

The "lake of fire" is a one time event at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. Many tend to confuse it with the abode of the wicked called 'hell'. But note at the end of Rev.20 the abode of hell is to go into... that future "lake of fire".

So those who are cast to the "outer darkness" with the gnashing of teeth being the result, is not that "lake of fire" event, not yet. It simply means to be in a place like the 'rich man' of Luke 16, a place of separation, and burning which the rich man complained about to Abraham.

Per Revelation 22:14-15, the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city, which suggests that is the "outer darkness" Jesus was talking about...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Thus I see that time being the "thousand years" period of Christ's future reign with His elect. Those are not destroyed in the lake of fire, they are in that place of separation which that "outer darkness" outside the gates of the new Jerusalem represents.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

Because that "tree of life" is shown inside those gates of the city, it reveals the future Millennium reign by Christ when God's River and the Tree of Life will return back to this earth, per Ezekiel 47 and in the start of the Revelation 22 chapter. So there's that change upon this earth in our future, but the wicked are still there. That is pointing to the "thousand years" of Rev.20, even though this is written in Rev.22.

So do you think that Christ was joking about the fire?

 

[Marymog]

and @Marymog

I actually believe that the Epistle of Barnabas should have been included as canonical and part of the New Testament.

Some in the early Church also thought it should have been part of the NT.

 

[Marymog]

Judas was taught by Jesus Christ...did that make him a reliable source of truth?

Huh.....

 

[Marymog]

The further away you get from Jesus and the Apostles, the more you see the adoption of man-made traditions and the twisting of scripture to accommodate false teachings,.....

Hi Jane,

I agree with you.....Soooooo do you think the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are reliable enough to base Church doctrine/dogma on?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Is it actually "Christian history" that you love, or "church history"? The two are not the same...by a long shot.

Ummmmm...Like I said I love Christian history. Why would you question that statement? I know what I love to learn and read about and I meant what I said and I said what I meant....I love Christian history. I feel like you are the type of person that just likes to argue...

 

[Marymog]

Since Jesus foretold that Christianity would be corrupted, who do we look to for confirmation that they became most unchristian in their beliefs and practices? Who was the only "Christian" church for 1500 years, completely drunk with its own power over the kings of the earth? With innocent blood dripping from its royal skirts, it literally got away with murder.

Anyone who knows "church history" should be appalled. The Spanish Inquisition was enough to see plain as day that these were not Christ's followers.....The worst that a person could suffer for opposing the original church's teachings, was excommunication....being removed from the church.....never was there death or torture. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Weird that you mention the first 1500 years of Christianity and the Spanish Inquisition as your example of Christianity's downfall but left out all the SAME atrocities that the Reformation brought us.

You do know that Protestant churches had their own inquisitions and they killed Catholics AND fellow Protestants that didn't agree with them? They also "got away with murder" and tortured people.

See.....this is why I love Christian history. I destroys the your Protestant narrative and anti-Catholic bias at ever turn.

 

[Marymog]

Very obviously.....


Judas was taught by Jesus Christ...did that make him a reliable source of truth?
Did the ECF's stick to the teachings of the Christ?

The apostle Paul wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4. Catholic Jerusalem Bible.)

Evidence within the Bible itself shows that apostasy already was at work before the death of Christ’s apostles. (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 3,4,16,19) Apostates from within the Christian congregation rose up as false teachers. Instead of following Bible truth, these ungodly men turned to “myths.” They carried off many Christians as their prey “through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men.” (Colossians 2:8)

How did that happen? Historian and Oxford University Professor J. N. D. Kelly explains:
“During the first three centuries of its existence, the Christian Church had first to emerge from the [monotheistic] Jewish environment that had cradled it and then come to terms with the predominantly Hellenistic (Greek) culture surrounding it.” Then, speaking of those who later became known as the early church fathers, Professor Kelly continues: “Most of them exploited current philosophical conceptions. . . . They have been accused of Hellenizing Christianity (making it Greek in form and method), but they were in fact attempting to formulate it in intellectual categories congenial [suited] to their age. In a real sense they were the first Christian theologians.” So, these early “theologians” set about adapting primitive Bible-based Christianity to the current philosophical ideas of the day.


The further away you get from Jesus and the Apostles, the more you see the adoption of man-made traditions and the twisting of scripture to accommodate false teachings, which was Judaism's undoing. The further away they got from Moses' teachings, the more they adopted false ideas and twisted scripture. History repeats because humans always fall for the devil's deceptions. His tricks are old, but they still work. He knows how to play human beings like a fiddle.

Jesus said to look at their "fruits"....what kind of worshippers they produce. Do they produce obedient, well informed thinkers....or ignorant ritualistic performers?


Is it actually "Christian history" that you love, or "church history"? The two are not the same...by a long shot.

Since Jesus foretold that Christianity would be corrupted, who do we look to for confirmation that they became most unchristian in their beliefs and practices? Who was the only "Christian" church for 1500 years, completely drunk with its own power over the kings of the earth? With innocent blood dripping from its royal skirts, it literally got away with murder.

Anyone who knows "church history" should be appalled. The Spanish Inquisition was enough to see plain as day that these were not Christ's followers.....
The worst that a person could suffer for opposing the original church's teachings, was excommunication....being removed from the church.....never was there death or torture. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Hey Jane,

@JohnPaul thinks that you don't just interpret but speak the truth from the word of God....unadulterated. Is that true? Do you? Is this entire post the unadulterated truth?

Curious Mary

 

[Philip James]

Jesus was crucified on the 14th and died on the 14th at 3:00 pm, the Roman 9th hour

Hello 1stCenturyLady,

Right!
And He offered Himself as the Paschal Lamb earlier at the beginning of the 14th ,'when the hour come', in front of the whole house of Israel (the 12 apostles) just as Moses commanded..

and then He gave Himself to them to eat.. 'this is My body'.

Pax et Bonum!

 

[farouk]

cc: @GodsGrace

No, that book is called The Gospel of Barnabas. The Epistles of Barnabas was written in the first century and quoted in the Didache.

Hi @1stCenturyLady It's not canonical...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hi @1stCenturyLady It's not canonical...

Doesn't it depend on if the Epistle of Barnabas was inspired or not? Is it really up to man? It was on 6 lists of books to include. Did the men who decided which books should be in the Canon actually have the Holy Spirit leading them? When I read it I felt that it was definitely inspired, and knew that the reason they didn't want it was because the prophecy in it would make the second coming of Christ over a thousand years from then. They just didn't want to believe it would be so long. It is now that the prophecy should be coming to pass.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I agree with you.....Soooooo do you think the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are reliable enough to base Church doctrine/dogma on?

The Apostolic Fathers were the very beginnings of the foretold apostasy.....it all starts with the thin edge of the wedge.....and as each successive leadership progressed, the church gained more and more power, and added more and more doctrines, until it eventually held a "kingdom over the Kings of the earth" as it was foretold. Power corrupts, which is why Christianity never had a hierarchy....as Jesus said....
Matthew 23:5-12, Jesus said of the Pharisees....
“Everything they do is meant to attract the attention of others. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6 They love to have places of honor at banquets and the best seats in synagogues, 7 and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be addressed as ‘Rabbi.’

8 “But do not allow yourselves to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master, and you are all brethren. 9 Call no one on earth your father, for you have but one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 You must not be called ‘teacher,’ for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you must be your servant. 12 All those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Humble ones do not draw attention to themselves by the way they dress....
Can you see Jesus or his apostles dressed like this?
Judas would never have had to identify Jesus with a kiss would he?

Ummmmm...Like I said I love Christian history. Why would you question that statement? I know what I love to learn and read about and I meant what I said and I said what I meant....I love Christian history.

Church history after the first century is nothing to be proud of.

I feel like you are the type of person that just likes to argue...

Where people's lives are at stake....I would not stand back and watch someone walk over a cliff...so, I will argue with false beliefs for the same reason.....but I'm assuming that you would never describe yourself that way...

Weird that you mention the first 1500 years of Christianity and the Spanish Inquisition as your example of Christianity's downfall but left out all the SAME atrocities that the Reformation brought us.

The Catholic church had just a bit of a head start....but you are right, the Reformation only accomplished one good thing....it gave the people back the Bible.....so now they could check for themselves how much of what Catholicism taught that was borrowed from the pagan Romans, and did not belong in Christianity.

You do know that Protestant churches had their own inquisitions and they killed Catholics AND fellow Protestants that didn't agree with them? They also "got away with murder" and tortured people.

As I am not a part of any church in Christendom, I have no horses in that race.....both are equally guilty before God.....if that makes you feel better?

(Isaiah 1:15)

See.....this is why I love Christian history. I destroys the your Protestant narrative and anti-Catholic bias at ever turn.

I am not a Protestant....I do not belong to any of the Protestant churches. I am a Christian.....I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, without adding anything he did not teach. I am not anti-Catholic....I am pro-truth. Truth exposes error which is why the religious leaders hated Jesus, and why he told us that we would be hated too for the same reason. (John 15:18-21)

@JohnPaul thinks that you don't just interpret but speak the truth from the word of God....unadulterated. Is that true? Do you? Is this entire post the unadulterated truth?

Not from your point of view obviously, but everything I said was backed up by scripture.....can you say the same? When Jesus wanted to settle a dispute he quoted God's word stating...."It is written". I like to do that too.....

 

[Marymog]

The Apostolic Fathers were the very beginnings of the foretold apostasy.....it all starts with the thin edge of the wedge.....and as each successive leadership progressed, the church gained more and more power, and added more and more doctrines, until it eventually held a "kingdom over the Kings of the earth" as it was foretold. Power corrupts, which is why Christianity never had a hierarchy.....

Good Morning Jane,

So you believe that the Apostolic Fathers (men who were students of the Apostles) "were the very beginnings of the foretold apostasy"! That is very interesting. That means we can't trust any of their writings of which contain what the Apostles taught them. Soooooo who do we trust? Do you trust your own interpretations of Scripture?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Church history after the first century is nothing to be proud of......

Can you be more specific? What happened in the 2nd century that The Church should not be proud of?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Humble ones do not draw attention to themselves by the way they dress....
Can you see Jesus or his apostles dressed like this?
Judas would never have had to identify Jesus with a kiss would he?

....

I don't like it either....

 

[Marymog]

Where people's lives are at stake....I would not stand back and watch someone walk over a cliff...so, I will argue with false beliefs for the same reason.....but I'm assuming that you would never describe yourself that way...

.....

He Jane,

Who made you the arbiter of what a "false belief" is and a what a true belief is? Is it possible that your beliefs are false and that you are 'walking over a cliff'? Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Are you 'the church'?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

The Catholic church had just a bit of a head start....but you are right, the Reformation only accomplished one good thing....it gave the people back the Bible.....so now they could check for themselves how much of what Catholicism taught that was borrowed from the pagan Romans, and did not belong in Christianity.

Hi Jane,

Hold on. Hold on.

Before the Reformation when did Christians NOT have the Bible to "check for themselves" that what The Church was teaching did not belong to Christianity? The bible had been around for 1500 years sooooo your statement makes no sense to me.

Also, are you saying that before the Reformation that Christians were sooooo stupid that they couldn't see your alleged link between paganism and what The Church practiced/taught etc? You think that pre-Reformation Christians didn't know Roman history and it wasn't until they got a bible in their hands to "check for themselves" that they made this connection? This makes no sense to me.

How does reading the bible all of a sudden link in a persons mind that The Church was practicing paganism? Did they already know what Roman paganism practices looked like? If so then they should have noticed it BEFORE they got the bible since they were already practicing it....Your theory makes no sense!!!

Curious Mary