Where do aborted babies go?

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Where do you think aborted babies go?

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  • Don't know

    Votes: 8 16.3%

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    49

Scott Downey

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We are all born in sin. THAT IS Christianity 101.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Particular interest though is the wicked go astray at birth. This is referring to wicked men-women adults who are wicked, one of their characteristics, so then unelect at infancy is shown by the verse. The wicked are always contrasted versus the righteous in many OC scriptures.

An obvious example is Esau versus Jacob. Esau God hated, and Jacob God loved before they were born. Esau turned out to be a wicked profane fornicator who desired to murder his brother, and grieved his parents.

Another is Cain versus Abel

Jesus and John call Abel righteous, and Cain wicked or evil
Matthew 23:35
that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

1 John 3:11-13
New King James Version
11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

Cain did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and Abel did was was right in the sight of the LORD.
 
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Scott Downey

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Romans 5 has the definite teaching about the concept of original sin, and it is not what most people believe what original sin to be.

The concept is simple, all have sinned, even though they did not sin Adam's sin. Due to Adam's sin, the judgement of God came. Death, corruption, Satan entered the world and came to all men. And mankind generally gave their allegiance to death, sin and the devil and have enmity with God.
"For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one,"
People not born again sin simply because the human race is part of a fallen world due to the curse, and God's judgement is still, the soul that sins shall die.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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PinSeeker

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People understand the doctrine of original sin in different ways, but nothing else is an accurate description except this:

'Original sin' is a term that defines the nature of mankind’s sinful condition because of Adam’s fall. It teaches that all people are corrupted by Adam’s sin through natural generation, by which ~ together with Adam’s imputed condemnation ~ we all enter the world guilty before God. 'Original sin' shows that we sin because we are sinners, entering this world with a corrupt nature and without hope apart from the saving grace of God in the Gospel. And that grace is that we would then be imputed with the righteousness of Christ, the second (final, perfect) Adam, and that there would then be no condemnation for sin, even though in this life we are still sinful creatures (though now desiring and even striving not to be).​

And this is what Paul shows us so completely in Romans 1-8, and then in Romans 9-11, he shows God's purpose in purposing and working salvation in His elect, and the absolute surety and incontrovertibility of it ~ because it is His work in us, which is not in vain and will not fail, rather than our work in ourselves, which will always in this life be far insufficient.

Regarding sin in general, what really matters is not any particular sin, but the sinful condition of man's heart ~ his natural, carnal nature ~ which he possesses from the very beginning, even from conception. If God changes that (according to the will of the Father and the work of the Holy Spirit), which he can do regardless of the person's age, then that man (man, woman, boy, girl, or baby, born or unborn) is then of God, and thus a child of God, a true Jew (whether Jew or Gentile) as Paul enunciates at the end of Romans 2 and thus of God's Israel as Paul enunciates in Romans 9 through 11. And, though the man still fall short of God's glory in this life (despite his desire not to sin ~ and thus his improving ability to avoid sin and his improving obedience ~ because of the Spirit's continued working in him), this will never be revoked. The calling of God is irrevocable, and purposes of God cannot be thwarted.

Grace and peace to all.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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If someone’s mother is an alcoholic, and they said, ‘in drunkenness did my mother conceive me’, does that mean the baby was born guilty of drunkenness?
No.

And the other psalm verse cannot be taken literally, unless there are newborns who start speaking in the delivery room, instead of just starting to say a few words at 18 months old. Thus none of them are speaking lies at birth.
Yes, it is to be taken literally. Infants are guilty of lying before they can even talk. They start manipulating their parents with crying and persisting anger, put on for a show until they get their way. The parents get annoyed by their persistence and in order to stop the baby from crying, they give in and let them have their way. Manipulation is just another way of lying, creating a false premise, an impression on others to influence their behavior in your favor. You give the crying baby what they want and immediately they stop crying. They got you, they have learned how to control their parents through lies. Later on, they brake a lamp. The parent comes in, "Did you do that, did you brake this lamp?" They lie to their face and say, "NO!" They point to their innocent brother, who can't talk yet and say, "He did it!" The brother can't defend himself and so he gets off the hook. Lies, deception, bearing false witness, it's all a sinful nature. Later on you see that your son has not played with a toy for months ... until his younger brother picks it up. All of a sudden, he cries and pouts, "He took my toy, that's mine, I want it ..." He opens up the flood gates, in anger and persistence and demands his toy back!" Selfishness 101. Did the parents teach these kids that? NO! It's is inbred in them. We are born with it!

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
True, we will be judged for our specific sins that we made or not if we have been forgiven and washed of them.
We are born with the curse of death that has been not only passed onto humanity from Adam but to the whole earth, all animals, plants and even non-living things have suffered from this curse. All diseases, bacteria and viruses became corrupted on that day. Imperfections, mutations in the genetic code began. Death of the cells began. We can look closely at every living person, animal, plant and see flaws. This was inherited through that original sin.
The earth suffered and actually is groaning for the redemption.

The punishment for sin is death (Genesis 2:17; 3:19, Romans 5:12)

Tertullian claimed each individual's soul was derived from the soul of their two parents, and therefore, because everyone is ultimately a descendant of Adam through sexual reproduction, the souls of humanity are partly derived from Adam's own soul - the only one directly created by God, and as a sinful soul, the derived souls of humanity, too, are sinful. Cyprian, on the other hand, believed that individuals were born already guilty of sin, and he was the first to link his notion of original guilt with infant baptism. Cyprian writes that the infant is "born has not sinned at all, except that carnally born according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the first death from the first nativity."

It is interesting and one must wonder, if the soul has this sinful nature at birth, regardless of when it arrived, did God create the soul defective, bent towards evil? Death and corruption is part of the curse that effects everything. It must be part of this whole dysfunctional cursed earth, humankind, animals and plants. Animals, for instance, have souls: mind, will, emotions, personality. They have this fear of man, they portray evil, anger, hate, selfishness and so their natures were changed. They became predators and the weaker, their prey. So their nature has also been passed down. Their natures will someday be different, peaceful, when the curse is lifted.

John MacArthur says, “Even before birth, your baby’s little heart was already programmed for sin and selfishness. The inclination toward depravity is such that, given free reign, every baby has the potential to become a monster.
Original sin is a biblical doctrine that explains your child’s sinful proclivity. It means children do not come into the world seeking God and righteousness, They do not even come into the world with a neutral innocence. They come into the world seeking the fulfillment of sinful and selfish desires. Although the outworking of the sin nature does not necessarily attain full expression in everyone's behavior, it is nonetheless call total depravity because there is no aspect of the human personality, character, mind, emotions, or will that is free from the corruption of sin or immune to sin’s enticements.
Sin is not learned, it is an inbred their disposition. Your kids got their sinful nature from you, you got it from your parents, your parents got it from their parents, and so on all the way back to Adam. Adam’s fall tainted the entire human race with sin. Both the guilt and corruption of sin was universal, inherited from Adam."

Paul wrote, “Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.” Rom. 5:12 No one is born innocent. Left to themselves, your children will pursue a course of sin. And left entirely to themselves, there is no evil of which they are incapable.”

This was the condition of the world when God destroyed it the first time, totally evil all the time. And the only remedy for people, for that depravity is the new birth!

“Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.” Gen. 3;17

Gen. 4 Cain murders Abel. Did he learn that from his parents? No. He was jealous and envious of his brother.

Gen. 6: 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.” Gen. 6:11-13

So because the original sin was passed down from Adam (and we see evidence everywhere of that), that would explain why Jesus was born without sin. He had physical imperfections as they were inherited through Mary, but His nature, His soul, was not. His soul preexisted with His Father.
 
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PinSeeker

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Particular interest though is the wicked go astray at birth.
Well, they can't go anywhere when they are still inside the womb, right Scott? I'm being a little facetious, but the point stands. The human condition (our sinfulness) is what it is at birth, but it is what it is from conception. And Isaiah tells us that even we believers have "gone astray," saying in chapter 53 of his prophecy, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned ~ every one ~ to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all."

The wicked are always contrasted versus the righteous in many OC scriptures.... An obvious example is Esau versus Jacob...Another is Cain versus Abel.
Absolutely. Noah was righteous, too (Genesis 6), Job was blameless and upright (Job 1), and Mary was favored by God (Luke 1). But 'righteous,' 'blameless,' 'upright,' 'favored'... none of those adjectives should be understood to mean that any man or woman, in this life, is perfect or sinless. Only Jesus is that. Their righteousness is really Jesus's righteousness, accredited to them by God because of their belief of God and their faith (Hebrews 11), which is itself a gift of God (Ephesians 2) ~ as it was regarding Abraham in Genesis 15.

Again, I'm being a little facetious, but this is true: We read about spiritual gifts (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12), given by the Spirit and apportioned to each according to the will of the Father. We never read of the abrogation of these gifts based on anything people did or did not do. And Paul tells us in Galatians 5 of the fruit of the Spirit in us (not the fruit of man :)).

Grace and peace to all.
 

Scott Downey

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Well, they can't go anywhere when they are still inside the womb, right Scott? I'm being a little facetious, but the point stands. The human condition (our sinfulness) is what it is at birth, but it is what it is from conception. And Isaiah tells us that even we believers have "gone astray," saying in chapter 53 of his prophecy, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned ~ every one ~ to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all."


Absolutely. Noah was righteous, too (Genesis 6), Job was blameless and upright (Job 1), and Mary was favored by God (Luke 1). But 'righteous,' 'blameless,' 'upright,' 'favored'... none of those adjectives should be understood to mean that any man or woman, in this life, is perfect or sinless. Only Jesus is that. Their righteousness is really Jesus's righteousness, accredited to them by God because of their belief of God and their faith (Hebrews 11), which is itself a gift of God (Ephesians 2) ~ as it was regarding Abraham in Genesis 15.

Again, I'm being a little facetious, but this is true: We read about spiritual gifts (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12), given by the Spirit and apportioned to each according to the will of the Father. We never read of the abrogation of these gifts based on anything people did or did not do. And Paul tells us in Galatians 5 of the fruit of the Spirit in us (not the fruit of man :)).

Grace and peace to all.
All those OT saints, and the many who remain unnamed are alive in heaven today, even though they sinned, God forgave them their sin due to their faith and called them just. Even in the OT, faith is what saved people.
God called them the 'just', Paul calls them the 'justified', just like Abraham was justified because He believed what God had spoken to him, and he was the friend of God. Paul calls Abraham the father of us all. Abraham was also a warrior, fought wars against kings, delivered the people of God from the enemy, and killed the enemies of God.

Habakuk 2:4 “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 4
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Particular interest though is the wicked go astray at birth. This is referring to wicked men-women adults who are wicked, one of their characteristics, so then unelect at infancy is shown by the verse.
The Psalms were written by King David.
He was a man after God's heart but was also wicked at times. Sending Bethsheba's husband to the front lines of a battle - to his certain death so he could have her.
He knew his heart was corrupt and so was asking for forgiveness.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Nope. Romans 5:12-14 says it all.
Death was passed down from Adam. Sin still reigned on earth before the Law. It just wasn't accountable to them. But death reigned from Adam to Moses.

Romans 5:12-14 does not contradict Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4 nor Romans 7:8-9 .

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Verse 12 ends by saying "all have sinned" showing personal culpability in sinning. It does not end by saying "all have inherited Adam's sin" for men do not passively inherit sin from other men against their will. OS makes man a innocent victim of sin rather then the guilty culpable perpetrator of sin that he is.

Rom 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
If all inherited Adam's sin then all would be guilty of the same exact sin of Adam but this verse says death resulted from people sinning sins NOT after the similitude of Adam....they died as a result of their OWN sin. There would be no need for a distinction between Adam's sin and their sins if they all died because of Adam's sin.

We today become sinners just as Adam.
Adam was not created a sinner but was given a law he was accountable (not eat of a certain tree) and he transgressed that law then and only then he became a sinner. We follow in Adam's footsteps in becoming sinner for neither are we created/born sinners but are under God's NT law and become sinners when we transgress that NT law. Adam was not a sinner until he transgressed God's law, likewise we are not sinners until we transgress Gods' law.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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If all inherited Adam's sin then all would be guilty of the same exact sin of Adam but this verse says death resulted from people sinning sins NOT after the similitude of Adam....they died as a result of their OWN sin. There would be no need for a distinction between Adam's sin and their sins if they all died because of Adam's sin.
There are no contradictions in scripture.
Sin came into the world through Adam and sin us taken away by Jesus. Death came into the world at that moment. In Adam's sin, all of mankind was in essence put to the test as well. We would have all failed the test. And that was a simple one. When the law came, Israel ( the chosen nation also representing humanity) failed over and over again.
The punishment of death came to all of mankind from that moment on. Cells started to die at that moment, their days were numbered. Diseases, harmful bacteria, viruses that did not exist before appeared. The genetic fabric of perfection in all life forms became corrupted as well as evil introduced. Animals feared man and their nature changed and became evil,and dangerous at times which prior to that was friendly, peaceful and harmless.
Spiritual death came at that moment, which is a separation from God.
This is the obvious state we are all born with, separate from God. It is a spiritual blindness. We all need to be reconciled back to God. Every infant is in this state of blindness, sinse it was passed down from Adam to all humanity. Like when you have a dead battery in a cell phone, you it is non-functional. What is the solution? A new battery, then you can connect.
One has to deny they were once blind. One would have to that death exists.
This is fundamental in Christianity. We were blind and now we can see.
 
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PinSeeker

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Adam was not a sinner until he transgressed God's law...
Agreed; proneness to sin became the condition of his heart, but as the federal head of the human race ~ the first progenitor, if you will ~ he passed this condition on to all who came after him.

likewise we are not sinners until we transgress Gods' law.
No, because we have inherited our first father's condition (see above), we are sinful ~ and thus sinners in need of redemption ~ from the time we come to be (conception). Think of it in the same light (at least sort of) as a physical trait that by heredity you have because your father or mother have/had, i.e., blonde, curly hair, or dark, straight hair.

We today become sinners just as Adam.
No, we are sinners ~ possessing a sinful nature from birth (conception, actually, dead in sin) ~ because of Adam's first sin and the sinful nature that came upon him that very day ~ death in sin ~ as a result. But, glory and thanks be to God, He doesn't leave us this way.

If all inherited Adam's sin then all would be guilty of the same exact sin of Adam.
That's just it, Ernest T. We are not guilty of Adam's particular sin, but we inherit the condition he acquired ~ death in sin ~ because of his particular sin. Yes, our particular sins are our own, and we are guilty of them, and, in confessing, because we are in Christ, God is faithful and just to forgive. But this is irrelevant, not altogether, of course, but to the particular subject at hand. The issue here is the state of man's heart, who and what he is at his inner core, and it is that way from birth.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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PinSeeker

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Hey! Merry Christmas to every single one of you sinners! :) And me, too. :D

Grace and peace to all.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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There are no contradictions in scripture.
Sin came into the word through Adam and sin us taken away by Jesus. Death came into the world at that moment. In Adam's sin, all of mankind was in essence put to the test as well. We would have all failed the test. And that was a simple one. When the law came, Israel ( the chosen nation also representing humanity) failed over and over again.
The punishment of death came to all of mankind from that moment on. Cells started to die at that moment, their days were numbered. Diseases, harmful bacteria, viruses that did not exist before appeared. The genetic fabric of perfection in all life forms became corrupted as well as evil introduced. Animals feared man and their nature changed and became evil,and dangerous at times which prior to that was friendly, peaceful and harmless.
Spiritual death came at that moment, which is a separation from God.
This is the obvious state we are all born with, separate from God. It is a spiritual blindness. We all need to be reconciled back to God. Every infant is in this state of blindness, sinse it was passed down from Adam to all humanity. Like when you have a dead battery in a cell phone, you it is non-functional. What is the solution? A new battery, then you can connect.
One has to deny they were once blind. One would have to that death exists.
This is fundamental in Christianity. We were blind and now we can see.

There are many verses that speak to the fact man is wicked and sinful but no verses say man is born that way. Sinful is what men become when they transgress God's law. Judas was not born a betrayer that is what he become. Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Paul did NOT say they are BORN out of the way or BORN unprofitable but sinners is what men become when men transgress God's law. Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:8-9 make it IMPOSSIBLE for one to be a sinner BEFORE one even sins. OS has one a sinner BEFORE one even transgresses God's law. Calling one a sinner before one sins is like calling a wall painted BEFORE any paint has been applied to it which is an impossibility.

Romans 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Many wrongly ASSUME 18(a) teaches all men are UNCONDITIONALLY condemned (born sinners) because of the offence of Adam. If that is true, then 18(b) is saying that same "all men" that was UNCONDITIONALLY condemned by Adam will be UNCONDITIONALLY justified by the righteousness of Christ and we have Universalism. Yet Paul is NOT teaching either the UNCONDITIONAL UNIVERSAL condemnation of all men no more than he is teaching the UNCONDITIONAL UNIVERSAL salvation of all men.

Men are "made sinners" (v19) by their own choice in choosing to "have sinned" Romans 5:12 just as men are "made righteous" by choosing to have faith, Romans 5:1. So no one is UNCONDITIONALLY made a sinner apart from choosing to have sinned as no one is UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous apart from choosing to have faith.

Paul's point in v18 is to show the benefits of Christ's righteousness (justification) is made available to 'all men' who have been condemned by sin since sin was brought into the world by Adam. This text not only refutes OS it refutes limited atonement for the righteous actions of Christ is the remedy for anyone ("all men") who has been affected by sin (all men) not for just 'some men' who have been affected by sin.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Agreed; proneness to sin became the condition of his heart, but as the federal head of the human race ~ the first progenitor, if you will ~ he passed this condition on to all who came after him.


No, because we have inherited our first father's condition (see above), we are sinful ~ and thus sinners in need of redemption ~ from the time we come to be (conception). Think of it in the same light (at least sort of) as a physical trait that by heredity you have because your father or mother have/had, i.e., blonde, curly hair, or dark, straight hair.


No, we are sinners ~ possessing a sinful nature from birth (conception, actually, dead in sin) ~ because of Adam's first sin and the sinful nature that came upon him that very day ~ death in sin ~ as a result. But, glory and thanks be to God, He doesn't leave us this way.


That's just it, Ernest T. We are not guilty of Adam's particular sin, but we inherit the condition he acquired ~ death in sin ~ because of his particular sin. Yes, our particular sins are our own, and we are guilty of them, and, in confessing, because we are in Christ, God is faithful and just to forgive. But this is irrelevant, not altogether, of course, but to the particular subject at hand. The issue here is the state of man's heart, who and what he is at his inner core, and it is that way from birth.

Grace and peace to you.
I do not see that Adam was created with a proneness to sin no more than a proneness to do right. He was created with a free will and used that free to choose to do right and to do wrong. So the idea of OS is not necessary for men to be sinners. We become sinners following the foot steps of Adam using free will in choosing to sin. So man does not need to have a sinful nature to be a sinner, all that is needed is a law and free will to choose to break that law.

If man were born with a sin nature, totally depraved where he could only choose to do wrong that makes man a innocent victim of sin. It would make God unjust in judging such men for men cannot be rightly, justly held accountable for how they were born against their will. We cannot rightly, justly condemn a man born with out legs for not walking. But God can and does justly hold men accountable for the free will choices men make.
 

PinSeeker

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I do not see that Adam was created with a proneness to sin...
He wasn't. He, along with Eve, became that way, as documented in Genesis 3. This is why they were banished from Eden.

man does not need to have a sinful nature to be a sinner, all that is needed is a law and free will to choose to break that law.
We do according to what we are. Not necessarily what God made us to be, but what we are... because of Adam's fall and our inherited sinful state/nature.

If man were born with a sin nature, totally depraved where he could only choose to do wrong...
Well, man (after Adam) is born with a sinful nature, and yes, "totally depraved," but this means not that "he can only choose to do wrong," but rather that he can not avoid doing wrong (sinning). We read in the Bible that even the good things we do (good works) are tainted with sin.

God can and does justly hold men accountable for the free will choices men make.
Absolutely! But for some ~ those He has caused to be born again, there is no more condemnation for it, because they are in Christ Jesus. But yes, absolutely, they ~ we ~ are still accountable in this life, and subject to His discipline, as God disciplines those He loves. And they will give an account of themselves at the Judgment. But they will have an Advocate, Christ Jesus Himself. And because of this, they will return to Eden, which will be made brand new. The others, the ones on Jesus's left, will also give an account of themselves at the Judgment, but they will have no one but themselves to stand before a holy God, and they will... well, you know.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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There are many verses that speak to the fact man is wicked and sinful but no verses say man is born that way. Sinful is what men become when they transgress God's law. Judas was not born a betrayer that is what he become. Romans 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Paul did NOT say they are BORN out of the way or BORN unprofitable but sinners is what men become when men transgress God's law. Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:8-9 make it IMPOSSIBLE for one to be a sinner BEFORE one even sins. OS has one a sinner BEFORE one even transgresses God's law. Calling one a sinner before one sins is like calling a wall painted BEFORE any paint has been applied to it which is an impossibility.

Romans 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Many wrongly ASSUME 18(a) teaches all men are UNCONDITIONALLY condemned (born sinners) because of the offence of Adam. If that is true, then 18(b) is saying that same "all men" that was UNCONDITIONALLY condemned by Adam will be UNCONDITIONALLY justified by the righteousness of Christ and we have Universalism. Yet Paul is NOT teaching either the UNCONDITIONAL UNIVERSAL condemnation of all men no more than he is teaching the UNCONDITIONAL UNIVERSAL salvation of all men.

Men are "made sinners" (v19) by their own choice in choosing to "have sinned" Romans 5:12 just as men are "made righteous" by choosing to have faith, Romans 5:1. So no one is UNCONDITIONALLY made a sinner apart from choosing to have sinned as no one is UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous apart from choosing to have faith.

Paul's point in v18 is to show the benefits of Christ's righteousness (justification) is made available to 'all men' who have been condemned by sin since sin was brought into the world by Adam. This text not only refutes OS it refutes limited atonement for the righteous actions of Christ is the remedy for anyone ("all men") who has been affected by sin (all men) not for just 'some men' who have been affected by sin.
So you think everyone on the planet at some point in their youth becomes sinful? That would mean that the opportunity to be without sin would exist and some may even achieve that for a time ... until ... oops, I failed - almost made it.
God says we are ALL like dirty rags. Where does it say thay infants or children are innocent?
You can continue believing what you want - not much more I can say.
 

Scott Downey

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The Psalms were written by King David.
He was a man after God's heart but was also wicked at times. Sending Bethsheba's husband to the front lines of a battle - to his certain death so he could have her.
He knew his heart was corrupt and so was asking for forgiveness.
Merry Christmans to you also.

Read that entire Psalm 58, and you will see it is a contrast again between the righteous versus the wicked, so you are running ahead of scripture, too big a leap applying this to all men at birth. The psalm writer describing the wicked, exposing their character, and extends that back to when they are born. And then makes request to God to take them out of the land of the living in judgement against these 'lions'. Lions make me think of Satan going about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, so it is with wicked men.

The only time in history when all men were wicked to the extreme like that was at the time of Noah's flood. When the Nephilim corrupted all mankind and even corrupted all flesh that breathed air.

And no doubt there were many wicked men when this psalm was written, and there are many many wicked men today.

The last v11, points out to the righteous they have a consolation and reward from God, that God will judge between the righteous and the wicked and punish the wicked. The righteous will see the vengeance of God against the wicked and rejoice over their destruction. This theme is actually throughout the scripture. The righteous will be saved and they will witness the destruction of the wicked.

Psalm 58
King James Version
1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O Lord.

7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.

10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
 
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quietthinker

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Merry Christmans to you also.

Read that entire Psalm 58, and you will see it is a contrast again between the righteous versus the wicked, so you are running ahead of scripture, too big a leap applying this to all men at birth. The psalm writer describing the wicked, exposing their character, and extends that back to when they are born. And then makes request to God to take them out of the land of the living in judgement against these 'lions'. Lions make me think of Satan going about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, so it is with wicked men.

The only time in history when all men were wicked to the extreme like that was at the time of Noah's flood. When the Nephilim corrupted all mankind and even corrupted all flesh that breathed air.

And no doubt there were many wicked men when this psalm was written, and there are many many wicked men today.

The last v11, points out to the righteous they have a consolation and reward from God, that God will judge between the righteous and the wicked and punish the wicked. The righteous will see the vengeance of God against the wicked and rejoice over their destruction. This theme is actually throughout the scripture. The righteous will be saved and they will witness the destruction of the wicked.

Psalm 58
King James Version
1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O Lord.

7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.

10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
and you think Jesus operated on this principal the highlighted section which indicate you look forward to?