Where do aborted babies go?

[Curtis]

How do you think people become unclean? By coming into contact with stuff that was unclean, no?

Ceremonially unclean. If they touched a dead animal they were ceremonially unclean until evening.

 

[quietthinker]

Ask Jesus.

Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He’s talking about being as innocent as a child,, and not about physiology.

are you innocent as a child?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

"And all whose names have not been written "from" the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

Does that mean: "Before/At/During or After" the foundation?

Yes, most of the translation say "from", several translate,"
"before" and others like NASB say "since".
Any if these words would imply from the beginning as in "In the beginning God created ..."
Taking it a step further, it is rational to assume that God doesn't create something without a plan - which is a design, thoughts and ideas _ before _ the actual creation.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If you do not grasp the difference between FREEWILL and CONSEQUENCE;
Not my problem.

Volition, the will too act and it's actions have consequences.
Abortion is a sin against God. God ONLY has the authority to give life and take it away. And that life begins at conception.
A seed by itself remains dormant. It has the potential, the information in it's genetic code to become what it was designed to be. All it needs is the spark of life, whether it be water, soil and sun or an ovum, but that life,comes from God. HE IS THE LIFE. Once growth begins - that is life and it is identified in it's beginning stages according to it's genetic code - even before it takes shape.

When a THING (in this case a manKIND Of Seed) is in the process of being Formed, IT, that THING, had absolutely NO Freewill, ie NO Choice of Choosing to BE;....planted in a Fallopian tube, fertilize an egg, travel down the Fallopian tube, engulfed in a placenta, attach to a womb, and begin formING into the expectation of a manKIND of THING, complete ITS forming, now formED, exit the womb, be severed from it Life Source Placenta, called born, and receive Gods Breath of Life, and BE an ALIVE “created” manKIND of Thing and ALIVE “made” manKIND of Thing...called “MULTIPLE” things...
A mankind of thing, a living soul, a baby, an infant, a terrestrial, an earthling, a person, a human, an individual, created AND made, Alive, Living, Johnny, Susie...blah, blah, blah.

Pro-choice people deny that a fetus is actually human. They must do this, otherwise they cannot justify murder. It is this reasoning that excuses them from their sin. To disassociate a human fetus from calling it such and instead call it a thing, as if void of purpose and design of God.
You deny being an advocate and yet state in so many terms their philosophy.

That “THING”, by whatever term one calls “IT”, is NEITHER, for or against God. It NEITHER is developed or skilled in thinking in its BRAIN in Logical or Reasoning terms.
...It’s Body, marvelously, CREAT-ED by Gods Hand...is one thing.

A fetus has no knowledge yet. It has volition already. It kicks at will, moves it's body and hands, thinks and has feelings which define partially what a soul is.

It’s Soul, MADE, the CREAT-ED sensory BODY parts ABLE TO FUNCTION.
...The ears, can HEAR, The eyes, can SEE, The nose can SMELL, The mouth can UTTER sounds, The flesh can FEEL TOUCH.

You are confusing physical bodily functions
with the soul, which is not physical.That is part of your problem.
GOD HAS A SOUL. HE IS NOT A PHYSICAL BEING. He became flesh and dwelt among us but prior to that, non-physical.
1 THES. 5:23 says we consist of a body, soul and spirit. A soul is the non-physical elements of a person: mind, will, emotions, spiritual gifts, talents, etc. You cannot dissect a person and see a soul, nor dissect a brain and see ideas, thoughts or memories.
"Here is My servant, whom I have chosen, My beloved, in whom My soul delights ..." Matt. 12:18
Did you grasp that?

THAT “thing” (whatever you want to call it)...”HAD” NO say in the matter (during 9 months) TO BE “created” (a

The human fetus did not have a say. It is not about their say, the parent's say or yours,
IT IS ABOUT GOD'S SAY IN THE MATTER. THE FETUS IS HIS CREATION AND ONLY HE HAS THE RIGHT TO ALLOW IT TO DEVELOP OR NOT!!! And it begs the question: Why would God create a life without the intention of full development?

AND AGAIN... ONCE “created and made”...that “thing”, (during infant, toddler, little child, pre-teen, young teen) ... “they” BY GODS DIRECTION TO PARENTS...are supposed be taught, and learning...HOW TO, exercise “their” FREEWILL, That IS most beneficial FOR THEM, and pleasing TO GOD.
...AND IF...the parents fail to accomplish their Godly directional task...(too bad, so sad for the child)....
...AND as the child becomes an ADULT, it becomes his own responsibility to Discover, hear, learn, read, and “receive” Gods direction; with the MIND as a child, (that he SHOULD have received as a child, from his natural parents).
...AND THAT ^^^ IS the LONG HARD ROAD, for every child who is thrust on that route....For some it is too difficult...
...AND...that ^ DIFFICULTY...is more than Obvious, to anyone with open eyes Observing World society;
...teaching, encouraging, promoting, advocating, participating in COMPLETE opposition of Gods beneficial Direction

CHILD development is after birth - another topic.

I have EXPRESSLY stated, I do NOT advocate or support ABORTIONS.
I have EXPRESSLY stated, I DO support FREEWIL

Okay, so what you are trying to convey is that humans should and do have the will and choices to either do good or evil.
Is that it? God grants that, He had to! That is essential for mankind to really understand and appreciate what good is; we must experience it's opposite.

>>> So then the question is (and the whole conversion hangs on this); since you claim not to advocate abortion:
DO YOU THINK ABORTION IS A SIN? Yes or no? And then are done.

 

[Curtis]

are you innocent as a child?

Are you,,or are you excluded from heaven, per Jesus’ very words?

You also have to believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead to be saved, BTW,

 

[Illuminator]

Abortion as Pagan Sacrifice

 

[Taken]

Abortion is a sin against God.

And? What do you hope to accomplish, preaching to the choir?

 

[Taken]

And that life begins at conception.

.

I am well aware of what BEGIN means.
I am well aware of WHAT life is Beginning is Earthly.

genetic code

LOL

It is interesting how Pro-choice people deny that a fetus is actually human.

What you find interesting I find rather dull and boring.

how disrespectful and inconsiderate you are....
very cold and heartless

Nothing new. Same old, same old in every one of your posts.
When your preaching fails, you make negative accusations...
LOL...how old are you 5?

You are confusing physical bodily functions
with the soul, which is not physical.

LOL...Old news, stated many times.
not responsible for your failure to comprehend.

And this is obvious you are in favor of that choice, a freewill decision to cut short a life of a future human being whom God created.
It is a Pro-Choice statement. All your posts reflect exactly this view.
Most of our laws come from basic, fundamental truths and God's laws. The sanctity of life is one.

Flat out LYING once, can be corrected. Repeatedly LYING, earns one the reputation of being a LIAR.
ARE YOU happy, merrily gay with yourself Ronald David Bruno?

And then are done.

Pfft. Done now. Had enough of your repugnant posts.

 

[quietthinker]

Are you,,or are you excluded from heaven, per Jesus’ very words?

You also have to believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead to be saved, BTW,

I'm not the one saying Jesus meant being innocent when he said 'unless you become as little children....you are. So the question is to you and your definition.

 

[Curtis]

are you innocent as a child?

Are you?

 

[quietthinker]

Are you?

I see you have side stepped my question again Curtis just like you have done when I asked if you are male or female because of discrepancies in your posts and your profile.

 

[Curtis]

You have said that how many times now .. 40 years .. well pal .. I only have 35 years .. but know way more than you do. You don't even know the main arguments on the other side .. you have spent 40 years in your own myopic perspective .. blind as a bat.

Claiming 18 Days after conception is wildly below kindergarten level - first off .. what you mean is "implantation" .. which happens a week or two after conception . Big difference when you are talking 18 days .. .. especially if implantation doesn't happen for the first 10 ..

But even so .. even claiming 18 days after implantation is simple ignorance of the issue... you can detect some pulses of energy perhaps but by no means is this a regular heart beat - and in no way have you claimed how having such a thing is significant .. you have a living thing being formed .. the energy of the collective increases with time .. that does not mean the soul has landed.

As a Research Scientist - Chemistry/Microbiology - I know a thing or two about how things work - and am not easily fooled .. so save your 40 years fallacy .. just as the above pud measurement is also "appeal to authority" fallacy - and put your cards on the table.


that said .. least I have a logical explanation for when I think the soul might alight. If your brain dead - your not much aware of this world ..

I think therefor I am -

Medical books on human embryology, state that a new human life begins at fertilization:

Life Begins at Fertilization
The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:


Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei(the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]

And if you insist a fertilized egg is not a live being, video yourself destroying the eggs of an endangered bird species, like an eagle, and send the video to a law enforcement agency of the federal government, and see if they will agree with you that destroying an eagle egg isn’t really killing a live eagle.

 

[Curtis]

I see you have side stepped my question again Curtis just like you have done when I asked if you are male or female because of discrepancies in your posts and your profile.

There are no discrepancies between my posts and my profile.

 

[quietthinker]

There are no discrepancies between my posts and my profile.

hmmmm, I didn't know males could have babies

 

[Taken]

are you innocent as a child?

I don’t believe it is about the “innocence or lack of innocence” as a child...
But more so, focused on the idea of ignoring all the things an adult has learned, and be like a child hearing knowledge for the first time and believing what he hears.

This passage gives the primary points..
1) Become converted...
Which includes having Gods Spirit of Truth indwelling (teaching, feeding Gods Word within the person)
2) Believe what the Spirit of Truth is teaching you.. just as a child would, ie without doubt.

Matt 18:
[3] And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Curtis]

hmmmm, I didn't know males could have babies

And I never said I birthed a baby.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Excellent post!!! At around 6 weeks of pregnancy the embryo's heartbeat can be detected and it is beating twice as fast as the mother's....at 11 weeks of pregnancy the embryo is now a fetus....
Now answer this question....why is the heart already beating at 6 weeks? Think about what the purpose of the heart is in the human body...
it pumps....day in and day out until death. What is it pumping? Blood.
What does the blood contain....Oxygen, nutrients, various hormones.....and it also gets rid of used energy....CO2, waste products, dead cells.

So isn't the embryo alive since it must have a heart to pump the necessary oxygenated blood throughout the body? Oh and emphasis....OXYGENATED BLOOD....(breath)....the lungs are NOT the breath of life...it is the organ that exchanges O2 and CO2.....

That is an excellent point. When the heart stops beating for more than a few minutes, people see that as the person being dead. They flatline. Sometimes they are resuscitated within a few minutes. But when the heart stops beating and doesn't start back up, that means death. So the beginning of a heartbeat can certainly be counted as life. Amd life is in the blood as scripture says.
I'm okay with that.
However, doesn't life begin when the sperm enters the egg and cells begin to divide and be created. A cell has thousands of miniature factories that create amino acids and proteins, photo copying machines that duplicate cells, modify, error correcting and 3-D printers if you will that receive enormous amonts of information from the genetic code, interpret it and proceed to manufacture the mind boggling complex human fibers, organs amd systems within systems simultaneously. Cells are being created and the fetus is growing ... isn't that life too?
As soon as a seedling of a Sequoia tree sprouts we would call that life. Even though it is just a sprout, it is a Sequoia.
I think God's breath of life rhat produces a living soul happens at conception. That soul is born at that time. It contains the life force.
Since _ as I have been taught _ the soul is the mind, will, emotions, the invisible person, well at this time of birth, to be just a blank soul in itself, but it too has a an invisible program/design that is in God's mind. He has intentions for this soul, plans. He/she could be a Mozart, Mother Teresa or an Einstein ... or a Judas, but to God, it is not a blank soul.

 

[Heart2Soul]

That is an excellent point. When the heart stops beating for more than a few minutes, people see that as the person being dead. They flatline. Sometimes they are resuscitated within a few minutes. But when the heart stops beating and doesn't start back up, that means death. So the beginning of a heartbeat can certainly be counted as life. Amd life is in the blood as scripture says.
I'm okay with that.
However, doesn't life begin when the sperm enters the egg and cells begin to divide and be created. A cell has thousands of miniature factories that create amino acids and proteins, photo copying machines that duplicate cells, modify, error correcting and 3-D printers if you will that receive enormous amonts of information from the genetic code, interpret it and proceed to manufacture the mind boggling complex human fibers, organs amd systems within systems simultaneously. Cells are being created and the fetus is growing ... isn't that life too?
As soon as a seedling of a Sequoia tree sprouts we would call that life. Even though it is just a sprout, it is a Sequoia.
I think God's breath of life rhat produces a living soul happens at conception. That soul is born at that time. It contains the life force.
Since _ as I have been taught _ the soul is the mind, will, emotions, the invisible person, well at this time of birth, to be just a blank soul in itself, but it too has a an invisible program/design that is in God's mind. He has intentions for this soul, plans. He/she could be a Mozart, Mother Teresa or an Einstein ... or a Judas, but to God, it is not a blank soul.

I think it should be considered at the time of conception...but for now I will accept the heartbeat rule that legislation has passed....and many women are not aware they have conceived in those 6 weeks so that gives the baby a chance of survival at least.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What do you think happens to babies if they are aborted?

Can you believe God would send innocent babies to hell? That doesn't seem right to me.

If they go to Heaven, think about it. If they were born, they could become terrible sinners and wind up in hell. If someone killed them first, they'd go to Heaven. So can that be right? Could you be doing a baby a favor by aborting it and sending it to Heaven? That doesn't seem right to me either.

Since infants are born without sin (Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:8-9) they are born innocent, pure and if they die in that innocent pure state they would be saved. Though men are born in an innocent, pure state does not justify the murder of infants. The ends do not justify the means (Romans 3:8)...Those who say "Let us do evil (murder), that good may come (infants saved) their damnation is just."
So even though infants who die will be in heaven does not justify the murder of them.

 

[PinSeeker]

You obviously did not get the point. Adam was Formed...NOT FORMING,
FORMED, NOT FORMING, FORMED, Before receiving Gods Breath of life!

Yeah, I did get it, but dismissed it, because it's not valid. Like I said, one could make the argument ~ but it would of course be ridiculous ~ that a person is not fully formed until he or she reaches and passes through puberty. And that would rule out anyone under the age of about eleven years old. Yeah, ridiculous, right? I don't think you're saying a person is not a person until he or she is an adult, but that's really where your views on this end up, whether intentionally or not.

So, really, what we're talking about is stages of development. And one could also make the argument ~ and this would not be so ridiculous, that even adults are still developing, not physically, maybe, but with regard to maturity and wisdom, among other things.

If that bugs you, take it up with God.

The only thing that "bugs me" is obstinance. And rationalization. And distorting truth to fit a preconceived narrative.

Disagree.

Of course you do.

Age does matter.

No it doesn't. Again, a person is a person no matter how small.

Born does matter.

Well, sure, but again, there are many passages in the Bible, a few of which I pointed out, that refer to a person as a person even while still in his/her mother's womb. And it doesn't makes some random distinction like, "only those who have been in the womb 22 weeks.

What God DOES, is not willy nilly, according to the created thing, manKIND. God expressly reveals HIS ORDER and HIS WAY.

Now, this is true, and I agree. Although to be honest, I'm not really sure what you mean by "according to the created thing, manKIND." Do you mean regarding the created thing? If so, sure, I agree.

The create THING, can FREELY accept Gods ORDER, Gods WAY, or FREELY reject Gods ORDER, Gods WAY.

Sure. But God's order/way is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.