Church Bashing

[Lambano]

Yes, now that I understand what you mean by your “giving medicine or withholding medicine”, we could have that conversation at some point. It won’t go the way you expect. The verses must all fit together, not be used against one another. If we want to get rid of the frustration, we can’t pick one of two sides men say we have to but must instead start with the sure premise that BOTH sets of verses are true.
As my friend says, there are ditches on BOTH sides of a road.

My friend, I am no longer certain we can start with that premise. The debate between the systems of men uses the same premises, and it has not been resolved in 400 years. I have seen extended treatments be faithful scholars. The verses do contradict each other, and men try to resolve those contradictions by prioritizing one set of verses over another, by redefining key terms, by using convoluted logic, and such other tricks. But without some agreed-to premises and rules of logic, how are we to even discuss the issue? Well, you knew I was heretic when you first reached out to me.

 

[farouk]

I am sure you have read posts in the past that explain why for ever and ever does not mean eternally. And they give examples from scripture where it is clearly a limited time.
Eternal fire for example does not mean that the thing it burns continues to exist. Jude7 for example.

As I understand it, perish does not mean cease to exist, but loss of well-being.

 

[quietthinker]

As I understand it, perish does not mean cease to exist, but loss of well-being.

lol, u betcha!
should I take my perished oranges back to the supermarket for a refund? What if they tell me they've only lost their well being?

 

[farouk]

My friend, I am no longer certain we can start with that premise. The debate between the systems of men uses the same premises, and it has not been resolved in 400 years. The verses do contradict each other, and men try to resolve those contradictions by redefining key terms, by using convoluted logic, and such other tricks. But without some agreed-to premises and rules of logic, how are we to even discuss the issue? Well, you knew I was heretic when you first reached out to me.

@Lambano By faith one grasps that 'Thy Word is truth' (John 17.17), so things that we apparently don't understand can't really be contradictory at all...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My friend, I am no longer certain we can start with that premise. The debate between the systems of men uses the same premises, and it has not been resolved in 400 years. The verses do contradict each other, and men try to resolve those contradictions by redefining key terms, by using convoluted logic, and such other tricks. But without some agreed-to premises and rules of logic, how are we to even discuss the issue? Well, you knew I was heretic when you first reached out to me.

You solve it by starting with the premise that both sets of scriptures are true and adding to them as you find them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. We have an obligation to behave in a holy manner because we ARE holy, we are God's own possession. Whether or not we meet the obligations of any relationship (including our relationship with God) would be a "righteousness" issue, using the categories you have established.

so would you define Gods holiness as…what?

 

[Lambano]

You solve it by starting with the premise that both sets of scriptures are true and adding to them as you find them.

Sigh.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sigh.

Lol.
You thought I did okay with Eternal Torment. And it was by looking at ALL the verses and not discarding any that, with the Spirits help, I was able to see it was false.

Just start writing the verses as you hear men quote them or you read them. Start a notebook or a recipe card for each one. Collect them all and lay them all out and ask God to help you understand.

 

[McFearless]

The word church is a stupid word.
We shouldn’t refer to the building as a church, but rather a temple. The people within the temple might be a church.
Today churches are also not very community like. They usually don’t share their money with each other. Only if the pastor needs a private jet, to show how prosperous his faith has made him.
If your church doesn’t resemble the first church, you might want to think about if you should stay there. Give away your money to the poor or your Christian brother and sister struggling to make ends meet. Be the church!

 

[quietthinker]

Lol.
You thought I did okay with Eternal Torment. And it was by looking at ALL the verses and not discarding any that, with the Spirits help, I was able to see it was false.

Just start writing the verses as you hear men quote them or you read them. Start a notebook or a recipe card for each one. Collect them all and lay them all out and ask God to help you understand.

the jokers who call for the rocks and mountains to fall on them do so because they're tormented by a lamb. The rocks and the mountains will probably fall on them in the process of a heaving planet.

 

[Brakelite]

As I understand it, perish does not mean cease to exist, but loss of well-being.

KJV Luke 13:1-3
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Pilate would have been bitterly disappointed to hear that those he intended to kill, and mixed their blood with the sacrifices, somehow survived having only lost their well being.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

so would you define Gods holiness as…what?

Hmm…you liked my post but didn’t answer it…
I’m trying to get at if you think God is holy means: God is set aside for Gods purposes. No, right?

 

[farouk]

KJV Luke 13:1-3
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Pilate would have been bitterly disappointed to hear that those he intended to kill, and mixed their blood with the sacrifices, somehow survived having only lost their well being.

In terms of the soul, particularly, it does not just cease to exist - as the annihilationists would have us believe...

 

[Brakelite]

In terms of the soul, particularly, it does not just cease to exist - as the annihilationists would have us believe...

Okay, but on whose authority do you have such an opinion considering the scripture says, the soul that sins, will die.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

KJV Luke 13:1-3
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Pilate would have been bitterly disappointed to hear that those he intended to kill, and mixed their blood with the sacrifices, somehow survived having only lost their well being.

I literally never remember reading that opening paragraph of Luke…! And I’ve read Luke quite a number of times! So I went to read it in my NLT. Worded quite differently but nope, still never noted it.

 

[quietthinker]

In terms of the soul, particularly, it does not just cease to exist - as the annihilationists would have us believe...

tell me what a soul is farouk?

 

[Brakelite]

so would you define Gods holiness as…what?

If I may butt in... Holiness to me means without imperfection. Perfect. Whole. Complete. Mature. Unblemished.
Righteousness to me means right doing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh I know I say this too much but there’s literally no place I would rather be than talking with you guys!

 

[farouk]

Okay, but on whose authority do you have such an opinion considering the scripture says, the soul that sins, will die.

The Lord Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven; plenty of refs. to it not being quenched.

 

[Lambano]

Hmm…you liked my post but didn’t answer it…
I’m trying to get at if you think God is holy means: God is set aside for Gods purposes. No, right?

The "like" was an ACK indicating that I had read your post. The question requires more research

The "set aside for God's purposes" definition applies to holy things here in creation. Applying it recursively to God Himself as you just did gives you basically the tautology that God is what He purposes to be. Or "I AM that I AM". (Exodus 3:14) That might be a brilliant move on your part.

I started out with "My thoughts are not your thoughts", i.e. God's holiness is his "otherness" relative to His creation and His creatures. However, in the Incarnation, the Holy became part of creation, and in the New Creation, God makes His home among men. (Revelation 21:3) Transcendence and immanence.

One area of research is what the Faithful's understanding of God's holiness has been over the centuries.