Church Bashing

[BarneyFife]

The beast is, I think, a ruler and an empire.

And just to head this one off . . . no, God doesn't have feathers.

Much love!

So you feel comfortable concluding that in the term "Mark of the Beast," the mark is literal but the beast is figurative. Seems like a questionable approach to hermeneutics. :):)

 

[Brakelite]

So you feel comfortable concluding that in the term "Mark of the Beast," the mark is literal but the beast is figurative. Seems like a questionable approach to hermeneutics. :):)

Oh dear. The worms are escaping.

 

[quietthinker]

Let me ask you this . . . Is God telling you to lie to yourself so that you will be self-deceived? Reckon yourself dead but you are not?

This is important to understand I think.

The context is another dying for my sin and its appropriation to myself. I see what God has declared me to be not what I see in my flesh. Why should the question even be asked about lying to myself?

Besides, I think you've missed my point.

 

[quietthinker]

I just take is as I read it. A mark on your right hand or forehead associated with worship of the beast and his image.

I know a lot of people think its not really a mark, and its not really on your right hand or forehead. But that's not me.

Much love!

Taking a writing where its symbols are obviously highly metaphorical and making them literal is poor exegesis Mark.
The expression in our idiom 'he was a marked man' has nothing to do with him having marks on him. You understand that.....it's no mystery, however it would be foolish to look for some sort of mark on the man. Why not apply the same principles to prophetic writings of this nature?

 

[Lambano]

Taking a writing where its symbols are obviously highly metaphorical and making them literal is poor exegesis ...

Thank you. That needed to be said. That's what I was talking about when I used the term "mode of rhetoric".

 

[Lambano]

But I've also found that these sorts of discussions can feel VERY threatening to some, as they find their views challenged, but are afraid of letting them go.

I might as well be honest, because God already knows. The view being challenged is my view that God is loving and trustworthy. And yes, I do find having that view challenged is uncomfortable.

You don't raise a child in an environment of fear expecting to produce a secure individual. That's abuse.

And this is EXACTLY the environment the Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine fosters. I know it by its fruits. I lived in that environment for thirty years, and I bear the scars on my soul.

(I changed "fair" to "fear" in your original post. With all the typing you've done in the past few days, one typo is understandable.)

 

[Lambano]

I've found that those who feel there is a contradiction - tension, they like to say - simply haven't understood it.

Much love!

The theologians and philosophers recognize this tension and even invented a term for it: Antimony (not to be confused with the metal of the same name):

What is an antinomy in theology?
It is called an antinomy. In philosophy, an antinomy is defined as a “contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.” In theology, we narrow the focus a little. An antinomy is a logical contradiction between principles that are both affirmed in Scripture.

One theologian (whom I usually respect) goes so far as to deny the law of non-contradiction and therefore the rules of Aristotelian logic itself. Which is logical, because the rules of Aristotelian logic are axiomatic to any discussion, so contradictions in scripture which cannot be contradictory force us to re-examine our foundational axioms and premises. Unfortunately, that is an argument that commits suicide, because Aristotelian logic is the very tool we use to argue with.

 

[Lambano]

Of course not. I'm not sure what I may have said that led you to think I'd think that way.

Much love!

Let's say for the moment that the Lake of Fire will bring eternal torment to those cast into it. If that were so, would God be wrong to do that? Are we the ones to say? So far, my sister remains against the faith. My son simply has no regard for it. Yes, I get that this is personal.

In your defense, you did phrase this as a hypothetical case...

 

[Lambano]

Since Purgatory is a complete fiction,...

Actually, if the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man correctly depicts Hades/Sheol, I could see it functioning as a Purgatory. Assuming God will eventually let the Rich Man out, after he's paid the last farthing.

This is, of course, purely speculative.

 

[Enoch111]

Actually, if the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man correctly depicts Hades/Sheol, I could see it functioning as a Purgatory. Assuming God will eventually let the Rich Man out, after he's paid the last farthing.

Please see Revelation 20:10-15 to see that those in Sheol/Hades will eventually face the Lake of Fire.

 

[Lambano]

Please see Revelation 20:10-15 to see that those in Sheol/Hades will eventually face the Lake of Fire.

Which I understand to mean the death of Death, and Hell's destruction. The end of the punishment, not the beginning. God's mercy.

 

[Nancy]

Actually, if the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man correctly depicts Hades/Sheol, I could see it functioning as a Purgatory. Assuming God will eventually let the Rich Man out, after he's paid the last farthing.

This is, of course, purely speculative.

Huh, interesting...but then, wouldn't that mean that he is paying for his own salvation? Or, would they be the souls preached to in Hell?
I thought He was preaching to those in Abrahams bosom, telling them that "It is done"...He has over come the world! Amen :) Then escorts them to "Paradise"
Just wondering as, Jesus preaching in Hell always had me seeing both sides as a "could be" sort of thing.
Interesting brother.

 

[Lambano]

Huh, interesting...but then, wouldn't that mean that he is paying for his own salvation? Or, would they be the souls preached to in Hell?
I thought He was preaching to those in Abrahams bosom, telling them that "It is done"...He has over come the world! Amen :) Then escorts them to "Paradise"
Just wondering as, Jesus preaching in Hell always had me seeing both sides as a "could be" sort of thing.
Interesting brother.

Could be. The sequel to the Niven/Pournelle book I quoted earlier (this one titled Escape from Hell) has Aimie Semple MacPherson riding around Hell on her motorcycle preaching to (and converting) the soul of a lost woman, and they leave Hell riding together on the motorcycle. Purely speculative fiction, of course. But it wouldn't surprise me all that much if God was more merciful than we ever imagined. However, "where Scripture is silent, I must remain silent".

 

[Lambano]

Okay I’ll take another guess…do you mean like…thinking there’s only one way to eternal life while also thinking men are born eternal?

Closer. I'm talking about 411 years of arguing God's sovereignty versus Man's responsibility. I'm talking about a god who is said to be loving, but tortures those who can't/won't love him back. I'm talking about the games we play with words' meanings: "World", "Until", "Punishment", "First", to name some of ones I've been involved with. I'm talking about men whose lives show love, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, joy, and peace who can accept their loved ones being tormented forever. The pieces don't fit, no matter how much we pound on them with our fists.

I've played this game, and with some success, but I repent, and I won't play it anymore. That's not why God sent me here.

 

[Nancy]

Could be. The sequel to the Niven/Pournelle book I quoted earlier (this one titled Escape from Hell) has Aimie Semple MacPherson riding around Hell on her motorcycle preaching to (and converting) the soul of a lost woman, and they leave Hell riding together on the motorcycle. Purely speculative fiction, of course. But it wouldn't surprise me all that much if God was more merciful than we ever imagined. However, "where Scripture is silent, I must remain silent".

Oh how I'd love to believe that one, but it's a stretch, lol! Antihalation seems more palatable hahaha!. But as you say"

"However, "where Scripture is silent, I must remain silent"."
Ah yes, very wise, Grasshopper!!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Everyone recognizes that death is a separation. Let us assume that the outer darkness is in fact the lake of fire, that sinners do indeed suffer according to the evil they committed, (many of few stripes) and that getting out of that predicament, escaping the suffering, is the second death?

That’s what I’m hoping against.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This is in the renewing of our minds, not that we pay for our sins, because if we want to cover the price of our sins, the lake of fire awaits us. We will have to die in our sins, and will suffer the second death.

Or, we receive the Risen Savior, and instead of having to pay with our own death, Jesus shares His death with us.

We are baptized into His death,

my question is did Jesus Christ go into the lake of fire? Why else show in the OT that when the furnace was heated, turned up seven times hotter they looked inside the furnace that burned: and those men that went in bound, they saw them free and walking in the midst of the fire…another with them in the fire? They suffered no hurt not even their clothes burnt! We sing songs about Him walking in the fire with us? Why does it matter? Because to me that would change everything we say about who goes in the fire?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The theologians and philosophers recognize this tension and even invented a term for it: Antimony (not to be confused with the metal of the same name):

What is an antinomy in theology?
It is called an antinomy. In philosophy, an antinomy is defined as a “contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.” In theology, we narrow the focus a little. An antinomy is a logical contradiction between principles that are both affirmed in Scripture.

One theologian (whom I usually respect) goes so far as to deny the law of non-contradiction and therefore the rules of Aristotelian logic itself. Which is logical, because the rules of Aristotelian logic are axiomatic to any discussion, so contradictions in scripture which cannot be contradictory force us to re-examine our foundation axioms. Unfortunately, that is an argument that commits suicide, because Aristotelian logic is the tool which we must use to argue with.

I had no idea you spoke Swahili…

 

[Lambano]

I had no idea you spoke Swahili…

We were required to take a certain number of Humanities credit-hours in college. I started out in a course, Introduction to Western Philosophy. Our first reading assignment was Plato, the father of Western Philosophy. The prof said, "Some of you are going to read Plato and say, 'Oh, wow, this is really deep'. Others are going to say, 'This is the biggest pile of B___S___ I've ever read in my life!' Buy me a beer after the semester is over and I'll tell you what I really think." I found myself in the latter group, dropped the course, and took a couple of courses in Logic instead.

I never did buy that professor a beer. It might've been worth it.

 

[Brakelite]

I might as well be honest, because God already knows. The view being challenged is my view that God is loving and trustworthy. And yes, I do find having that view challenged is uncomfortable.

Indeed. I totally get a very squishy queazy feeling in the pit of my stomach when I consider the virulence and passion that Christians display in trying to defend their hypothesis that God has so little mercy, and takes steps to ensure that those in heaven can still enjoy themselves despite mum, dad, little sis and big brother somehow are deserving the pain and anguish... Without end. The God they are desperately defending is not the God of the Bible. Not the God I know. Not a God I want to know. Yet they are so determined it should be. Forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing.

Just wondering as, Jesus preaching in Hell always had me seeing both sides as a "could be" sort of thing.
Interesting brother.

Jesus didn't preach to anyone in hell Nancy. That's another tragic story founded on poor exegesis.