Church Bashing

[Nancy]

It always does.
The first thing God gave me to work on was trust. It was a sometimes pitched battle.
Then He threw in fasting (not from food) and the battle to trust became harder then because I had to get over my fear that I’d done something to make Him leave me AND I had to walk in total darkness and couldn’t even read or pray.
There were some times I would come out of that but they were very brief and then He would plunge me back into the distressing darkness and I would think He was going to leave me there to die of thirst.

The last time I came out of that almost 14 years long, on again off again…(I don’t know what to call it) I no longer had to work hard with my mind. He just…gave to me. It’s been the most shocking thing.
I think it’s Teresa’s explanation of laboring to pull up water from a well with a bucket versus obtaining water from a water wheel that does the work.

Ditto Stunned,
He has finally broke my "fast" in the same way....I can pray again, and seek Him even better. He pulls away to see if we trust Him..."EVEN IF"...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Have you considered that if the unforgiving servant had to pay the debt, his boss didn't?

No, haven’t considered it. I know the doctrines. What I keep seeing is that they aren’t built on ALL the words from God.
I’ve seen men run all over the place and make whole ministries on, for instance, you don’t have because you don’t ask. Well then, you still don’t have because you asked with wavering faith. They’re running around with a half baked cake that keeps alive what has to die. They make a deal to cheat death and God will cancel it.

 

[charity]

I don't see any particular importance in where we meet. I like the potlucks myself! But I think the gathering together is important. There is a purpose to it, and it's to make our Christian lives better.

At what point do we divide from others? I guess that's something we each have to answer for ourselves.

Much love!

Hello there, @marks

I can sit alongside anyone in a fellowship meeting quite happily, regardless of any differences between us doctrinally: for faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, as our Saviour and Lord is the bond between us. The problem comes when the differences are being expressed from the pulpit, or the teaching chair.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Brakelite]

The fact is, David, that God gave us that Book so we Can in fact know Him.

Your question is off point.

Your suggestion was that God gives contradictory information to His children to frighten them into following Him until they grow up better, and I find that concept to be appalling. Actually much worse than that.

Have them believe a lie so they can grow up afraid? Evil parents do that.

Much love!

That's an interesting response Mark. Yes, God gave us a book. And very few believed it. And many, even most, when they read it today think God is as you portray Him. Vindictive, vengeful, spiteful, judgemental and unjust. Demanding people worship Him and then torturing people forever when they don't. That's what they get from what they believe the book says, because that's what they're told it says.
And Israel didn't fair any better. They didn't trust the book either. Instead they trusted their leaders like the Sadducees and Pharisees. They trusted the lies that said God was selfish. Which is why God sent His Son. To set the record straight. And people still believe God is selfish.
Now I'm not saying the book has it wrong, quite the opposite. It's just that one lie was all it took to set the planet on edge. Adam and Eve hid because of fear. Because Satan lied. And that same lie is still being taught from pulpits in Christian churches. That sinners live forever. People are still believing what their preachers tell them, and not trusting the book.

 

[marks]

The above quotes speak for themselves.

I must be confused about what you are saying here. God killed everyone in the world with a flood, save 8 persons. I'm not going to say He was wrong to do so. And not just because He is mighty, but because He is righteous.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The above quotes speak for themselves.

Christ paid the debt for every man on Calvary. Without exception. We have been forgiven. The requirement or criteria, at least one of them, or in the end benefiting from that precious grace, is that we forgive others. Yes, of anyone goes to destruction in the end it is because of sin. Because of the debt owed.
Our sins were laid upon Christ at Calvary. The only conclusion is that there remains in heaven a record of those sins and they are laid upon individuals who refuse to forgive... Repent.
There is a much larger study on the sanctuary that wholly supports the above.

There is a study of the Book of Life that yields interesting results. Some remain written, some are blotted out. And it can only have to do with God's foreknowledge of the imputation of sin and righteousness, that our names are not blotted out at our first sin, rather, they remain because we are justified in Christ.

What you suggest is a salvation dependant upon works, which I find fully refuted in the Bible. I believe this is an incorrect mixture of old and new covenants.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

1 Peter 18-20
…18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.…

Those are indeed the verses from which people have devised the idea that Jesus preached to people in hell. I would ask these questions however in order to direct perhaps a closer reading of the passage at hand... First, answer this... By whose power and when did the prophets of old warn Israel and preach righteousness?
Now to Peter's verses...

By what power was the preaching done?
At what time was the preaching done?
And through whom was the preaching done?

 

[Brakelite]

No, haven’t considered it. I know the doctrines. What I keep seeing is that they aren’t built on ALL the words from God.
I’ve seen men run all over the place and make whole ministries on, for instance, you don’t have because you don’t ask. Well then, you still don’t have because you asked with wavering faith. They’re running around with a half baked cake that keeps alive what has to die. They make a deal to cheat death and God will cancel it.

The unforgiving servant has to pay the debt. Therefore Jesus didn't pay it. Can anyone enter glory if Jesus didn't pay for their ransom from death?

 

[marks]

Are you sure? That would strongly suggest OSAS. In the OT the blood of the sacrifices were taken into the sanctuary. The sacrifice and death of the victim was but the first step. To what purpose was the blood sprinkled before the veil? To wipe the debt clear... Or record it?

Colossians 2:12-14 KJV
12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The "handwriting of ordinances", the handwriting is the "cheirographon", which was the word they used for "promisory note", or a certificate of indebtedness.

In the OT, many things, however,

Hebrews 9:8 KJV
8) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

This first tabernacle,

Hebrews 9:1-3 KJV
1) Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2) For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3) And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

The tabernacle is spoken here as two tabernacles, the first with the menorah, and the table and showbread, and the the tabernacle called the holiest of all.

Hebrews 9:11 KJV
11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Christ actually replaces the first tabernacle with the tabernacle of His flesh.

Hebrews 10:8-10 KJV
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 KJV
14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:19-22 KJV
19) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20) By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21) And having an high priest over the house of God;
22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The priestly service of the OT is removed and replaced by entrance to the Holy of Holies not by sacrifice and offerings, but through Jesus.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So you feel comfortable concluding that in the term "Mark of the Beast," the mark is literal but the beast is figurative. Seems like a questionable approach to hermeneutics.

Maybe go just a touch deeper before writing me off? If you want to be dismissive, it's working.

I mean, the Bible does have different sorts of language used, right? Sometimes more literal, sometimes more metaphical? Or do you not agree?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

The problem comes when the differences are being expressed from the pulpit, or the teaching chair.

My Bible Study leader was fond of saying that a consistent message in the Bible is to stay on the narrow path. Don't go too far to the left and don't go too far to the right.

What you just identified is the left boundary. This thread is about the right boundary, church bashing.

Make a Blessed Day!

 

[marks]

The context is another dying for my sin and its appropriation to myself. I see what God has declared me to be not what I see in my flesh. Why should the question even be asked about lying to myself?

Besides, I think you've missed my point.

Because either it's true, and we are dead to sin, or it's not true, and God's telling is to pretend that it is, even to the point of accounting it true, ergo, lying to one's self.

So the question of what death is, if this is a true thing, that we are dead to sin, we need to consider things like this in understand just what God is saying when He speaks of death.

Our walk is by faith and not by sight. Why is that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Taking a writing where its symbols are obviously highly metaphorical and making them literal is poor exegesis Mark.
The expression in our idiom 'he was a marked man' has nothing to do with him having marks on him. You understand that.....it's no mystery, however it would be foolish to look for some sort of mark on the man. Why not apply the same principles to prophetic writings of this nature?

Why not read prophetic narrative as exactly that?

Jesus would be 3 days in the grave, and people will be marked. Why is that so hard to accept?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

The unforgiving servant has to pay the debt. Therefore Jesus didn't pay it. Can anyone enter glory if Jesus didn't pay for their ransom from death?

This is not the point of the parable. The point is about lack of forgiveness. If you fail to forgive, for that reason, will you suffer.

The parable says nothing about the man who owed much but his debt was forgiven, THEN had his debt re-instated.

 

[marks]

Actually, if the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man correctly depicts Hades/Sheol, I could see it functioning as a Purgatory. Assuming God will eventually let the Rich Man out, after he's paid the last farthing.

This is, of course, purely speculative.

How would he pay?

How much do you have to pay, to pay for your sins?

Much love!

 

[marks]

my question is did Jesus Christ go into the lake of fire? Why else show in the OT that when the furnace was heated, turned up seven times hotter they looked inside the furnace that burned: and those men that went in bound, they saw them free and walking in the midst of the fire…another with them in the fire? They suffered no hurt not even their clothes burnt! We sing songs about Him walking in the fire with us? Why does it matter? Because to me that would change everything we say about who goes in the fire?

I see nothing in the Bible that would suggest to me that Jesus went into the Lake of Fire.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

1 Peter 18-20
…18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.…

Thanks Nancy - I looked and looked and tried different key word but still couldn't find it,

 

[David H.]

Your suggestion was that God gives contradictory information to His children to frighten them into following Him until they grow up better, and I find that concept to be appalling. Actually much worse than that.

The testimony of scripture pales in comparison from the assurance That comes when God hugs each one of us with His presence as a Father does.

I think he wants us to yearn for the latter, rather than to be content with the former. Conditional security is there to lead us into his arms and "cry Abba Father". Read Romans 8:14-39

A doctrine taught is like an IOU, that blessed assurance that comes from knowing the purchaser is far greater.

To use the analogy of a child and a father, The doctrine is like knowing the Father will come home from work, the Assurance comes when he does come from work and gives us a hug.

 

[marks]

Thank you. That needed to be said. That's what I was talking about when I used the term "mode of rhetoric".

For myself, I see the Bible this way.

Various genres of language are used, just like we do. And when metaphors and symbols are used, not only does the Bible indicate that, but it also tells you what they mean.

And anything outside of that simply lacks Biblical authority.

Very many people declare things to be metaphor or symbol that have no indication of such in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think a complete and utter end to sin and sinners, death and evil, pain and suffering, isn't something we all ought not just to be hoping for, but grateful for.

I think we're better of not preferring one teaching over another because we like it better. I don't think that a very good determiner of truth.

I do admit though it seems to be commonly used.

Much love!