Pretty soon I'll be leaving this thread.
You can believe what you will EG.
But you and others are way off what mainline Christianity teaches.
You're very very far from what the Apostles taught.
But I guess you know more than they did.
"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.
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You can believe what you will EG.
But you and others are way off what mainline Christianity teaches.
You're very very far from what the Apostles taught.
But I guess you know more than they did.
The above response from you was in reference to the fact that even if we fall away, we can always return to God and He will accept us.
Jesus said anyone who goes to Him, He will in no way cast out.
By posting Luke 15:31 do you mean that all that the Father has is always available to us?
That's not what you said. You said saved but not saved. He is saying he's not perfect and hasn't been resurrected yet but is saved. None of us have attained being like Christ perfectly. That doesn't mean we are saved but not saved.
10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
TOTALLY agree, NO Contradictions! Please continue with The WHY below...
Precious friend, before you go, "this beaten beyond death dead horse" discussion could have "one More BEATING" nail in the equine Coffin, With God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
What the "apostles" taught? Depends! On what? Q: Should we follow The TWELVE, and "what Christ Taught them, on the earth, according to prophecy? Commands
such as "SELL everything you have, follow Moses Law, etc." OR...:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:
...Or, "What God Revealed To His ONE GRACE apostle, From Heaven," In
HIS "Revelation Of The MYSTERY!": ie:
"Follow ME (Paul) as I follow Christ!, work with your hands to give to them
who are in need," AND, "Saved By GRACE Through faith," APART From The Previous Law of Moses!
---------------------------
Kinda Difficult TO DO BOTH, At The SAME time!, Correct?
---------------------------------
More "study," Rightly Divided:
God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY
Precious friend, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified, In CHRIST!
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This is the same argument I hear from those that say we cannot be unborn.
The spirit is not the physical.
Flesh is flesh
Spirit is spirit
John 3:6
Jesus will never reject anyone that goes to Him.
John 6:37
Great verses to show that one can indeed fall away...
But it does not state that a person cannot return.
IF they wanted to.
Hebrews is speaking to a Jewish audience.
Jews that had left their life-long belief system and had turned their trust on to Jesus for salvation.
They had doubts that they were making the right choice.
Hebrews 6 is addressed to them.
Leaving grace and returning to the law is like crucifying Jesus all over again...
He died to free us from the law. And it would make the sacrifice null.
If they left grace to RETURN to the law,,,how could they ever trust grace again?
It would be very difficult once such a decision is made.
The father welcomed him back with open arms.
Right.
And, you might want to consider the parable of the lost sheep.
The sheep was IN THE FOLD.
He became lost.
Jesus went to look for the lost sheep and BROUGHT HIM BACK to the fold.
Can't remember if I answered this Scott.
But no matter...
I dislike debating something forever.
If the word that Jesus speaks...AGAIN...means nothing to you,
then so be it.
Just some comments:
The son left in good standing with the father.
The custom was to give the older son 2/3 of the inheritance...which the father did and which was the money the son spent.
So the son leaves and squanders the money and is left penniless and hungry.
The son finally came to his senses...which means he had a nice life with his father before he left.
We can understand this to mean he was saved....analogically speaking.
The son returns home.
The father is waiting for him and welcomes him BACK.
The son believes he is not even worthy of being called a son anymore.
The father states that the son was lost but has come back to life AGAIN.
Luke 15:24
I just wrote to you regarding this.
Don't you believe the Prodigal Son was "saved" before he left his home and father?
You never answered what IT IS FINISHED means to you.
We'll let it go...
till next time!
There are no contradictions in the N.T. (or the bible).
If we find one, it is usually explainable just by taking the entire message of the N.T. into consideration and properly understanding the words of Jesus and the teachings of the Apostles.
The contradiction I was referring to with the other poster (@Eternally Grateful I believe) is this:
I stated that God will take anyone back after falling away and cited Jesus saying that He would in no way cast anyone out that came to Him.
John 6:37
The other poster said it is impossible to renew a person again.
Hebrews 6:6
How is the conflict resolved? Easily, by understanding Hebrews 6.
It was written to Jews that had left their religion to belong to a new religion which was that of following Jesus and being saved by grace...by faith.
Many understood this and many did not because they had been taught that they needed to be "religious" and to be saved by doing works.
Jesus said that the pharisees were blind and were leading many to damnation.
Hebrews 6 is for the Jew that began to doubt the salvation by faith and grace and were thinking of returning to the Law in order to be saved.
This would be an open admission to all that perhaps Jesus' sacrifice was null and of no use, and that maybe the Law was better than grace.
This is not meant for a Christian that has backslidden or left the faith for some reason and wishes to come back.
All we need do is think of David, Moses. They sinned against God but both are saved.
We'd have to include Peter - some believe he became fallen when denying that he knew Jesus.
Personally, I don't think Peter was fallen but just scared.
Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.
Fulfill means to complete...it does NOT mean that HE fulfilled it so now we don't have to follow it.
This is what some Christians state...maybe those that don't care to change their life.
Jesus abolished the Civil Law, the Ceremonial Law, basically because it cannot be kept even culturally in most parts of the world.
But He did not abolish the Moral Law --- the moral Law is still in effect.
What Jesus did was send the Holy Spirit and He has given us the ABILITY to "maintain" the moral law....not that we can 100%.
This is the idea of the New Covenant. What has changed is this ability through the Holy Spirit who once did not dwell within us, but was exterior to us. Jeremiah 31:33
So maybe God wants someone to sell all...then that person would be able to do this with his heart.
If not, it is not required.
Everything refers to the matter of the heart.
And, yes, works are necessary for continued salvation.
It cannot be more clear, there are verses galore...I sometimes wonder why I even need to post any.
As to the Apostles...yes, they taught.
Then those they taught did the same to others.
We have these writings and can check what was taught by the Apostles.
I do this many times when there is a question about something.
The Apostles and those they taught did NOT believe in OSAS and they DID believe in good works.
I don't read every post, but I can safely assume we got into discussing the keeping of the Sabbath.
And yes, some SDA do believe those that do not keep the Sabbath are lost.
Others post a lot and try to convince the whole Christian world that it is sinning, even if perhaps they are not lost.
I've read this idea of your previously and must say I don't really agree with it.
If it were true, then I can sin all I want to and still get to heaven but I'd just miss out on the banquet?
That doesn't make too much sense to me since Jesus spoke about our behavior and about building on rock.
How were they still part of the Kingdom when the door was shut to them? Matthew 25:10
How were they still part of the Kingdom when the "Lord" said to them I do not know you when they asked to enter? Matthew 25:11-12
The 5 without the oil, who had gone to get the oil (to get ready) were not FOUND READY,
when the groom came...and so the door was closed to them and the groom did not open the door and told them he did not know them.
We must always be ready.
What does the Sabbath have to do with OSAS?
I don't really understand.
Sabbath keepers have a very good point.
Keeping the Sabbath is part of the 10 commandments.
The Moral Law was not abolished but is still in effect.
So are we non-sabbath keepers breaking a commandment of God?
Different thread.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
It is acceptable to do good on the Sabbath.
It is not acceptable to adopt a policy of broad-based Sabbath-breaking.
This is not my judgment. It is simply what the Bible teaches.
If you consider this as me "judging" someone else for Sabbath-breaking let me assure you, that is not my intention.
I have never singled out a person or group of people in condemnation for Sabbath-breaking.
It is not something I am required nor am able to do.
I merely invite, encourage, teach, train, and, yes, even correct.
Or as the Bible calls it:
2 Timothy 3:16 KJV: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
And should you think this must only be done between the Lord and the one being instructed and never by another person:
Bible Search: rebuke reprove exhort
This poor generation has been taught that every expression of variance or disagreement is an offence--a condemnation; a "judgment". All this greatly pleases the enemy of souls. He has rendered the word "judge" (as regards religion) an abomination, without any virtue whatsoever. It makes the work of the conscientious witness to God's glory very bitter.
My own testimony of the Sabbath is that every week I get to feel more joy than I did as a child on Christmas day! I get to meet with my Jesus in a very special way and with others who love Him and His Sabbath as well! It has increased the quality of my life tenfold! How could I not desire this for others?!
Ok, gotcha. Going to a Christian church because your parents did, but not considering yourself a Christian.
When you sit in your Christian church now, do you think every one sitting in that Church is a Christian?
Thank you for sharing.
I know it was the Pharisees that were condemning His disciples for profaning the sabbath, but Jesus did not say His disciples were not profaning the sabbath.
Instead, Jesus referred to 2 incidents in the O.T. for how the saints had actually profaned the sabbath but were guiltless because they were in the Temple.
Then Jesus said One greater than the Temple was here for how He was defending His disciples for profaning the sabbath.
That was why His disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath because Jesus was with them.
That is why we are not guilty for profaning the sabbath because our bodies are the temples of the holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 & Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) and with us always Matthew 28:20 for He is able to make us stand. Romans 14:4-8
I had posted that I knew he didn't do that, but addressing some Sabbath Keepers in how judging can be seen as condemnation rather than correction.
That is good but surely you have come across some sabbath day keepers that do judge others for not keeping the sabbath. I know I have come across some in the past that had done that, but not recently since I have come back into Christian forums.
Sometimes believers need a reminder even from Christian music and not just from others for where our hope is all on for how we are His.
What you do not see is that they didn't profane the sabbath. That was the Pharisees adding more and more to Sabbath commands.
@Eternally Grateful @Hidden In Him @Ferris Bueller @Taken @Cooper @Nancy @Mayflower @BarnyFife @ScottA
Hebrews 6:1-9 begins about what a new believer goes through at conversion. Paul was signifying that if they fell away, there was no need to go through all that again as if to renew themselves for the renewing done at salvation cannot be repeated, because they are still saved for why that would be impossible. If you compare Hebrews 6:1-9 regarding what the believer had done after having received eternal life, ( the water ) on producing weeds or herbs, we can see how the fire come in doing away with the weeds even though the water still has been received in the earth as i still saved.
Because Hebrews 6:1-9 is the same thing as what Paul was talking about here again in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 on what the believer builds on that foundation for how it will be judged... with fire. If any one defiles the temple of God, him will God destroy, but the spirit is saved because that foundation remains.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Paul had written both of those references. By an example; in 1 Corinthias 5:1-13, a brother was caught in fornication of having his father's wife, and the church was ignoring it. He said for the church to excommunicate him if he was unrepentant and they did. In 2 Corinthians 2:1-11 and Paul instructed the church to forgive him when he did repent in letting him back in.
The point of reference is this; Paul never instructed the church for the one repenting and coming back in for them to go through the laying on of ands again or water baptizing him again or whatever a new believer goes through at conversion because repentance & asking for forgiveness is all that is required.
See? That is why it is impossible because there is no need to go through all that a believer went through at conversion for he is still saved. It was repentance that was required and asking for forgiveness from the church so he can be allowed back in.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Just for the record, I do believe John Calvin was a great man of God.Foreordained is good for me.
I just hope you don't mean predestinated...
(since I agree with you so much).
I truly admire all of the reformers, especially Wycliffe, Hus, Luther, Melanchthon, Calvin, Zwingli, and the great Preachers of the two Great Awakenings: Chesterton, Spurgeon, Moody, etc.
It's a shame that Edwards's "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God" gained so much favor. While it does contain much truth, I reject outright that souls should be won by malicious threatening.
And, while I believe that the ultimate destruction of sin and sinners is fully an act of love, the Bible does call it "His strange act."
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