No, spiritual death is what is addressed, as this is his context throughout his letters. Grace and peace to you, JF1.
Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.
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Right. It's not a question of choice, free or not. It's our spiritual state that is the issue, and whether it is dead and will remain so even through eternity or alive and will remain so through eternity.
Grace and peace!
But... why would I presume to do that? I couldn't, even if I wanted to, which, of course, I don't.
No, it's just a difference in our understandings of the passage, and it goes way beyond just me and you. If you want to maintain that I have the wrong understanding and yours is right, I'm fine with that, but I maintain that yours is the understanding that is in error.
As I demonstrated (at least to an extent but not fully; I could touch on many other parts of Scripture, but the result would be the same), my understanding does not conflict with and actually lines up perfectly with other Bible passages. If you want to discuss it further, then address the Scriptures that I addressed, rather than just throw accusations at me.
Grace and peace to you.
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So Dr Sproul, MacArthur, Spurgeon, et all were all false teachers, so none saved?
Jesus VERY adamant to us that all that he saved are forever saved, and was confirmed by Paul when stated that the Holy Spirit seals us forever!
No, "OSAS" does not say that, but only that we are kept by the power of the Spirit, not in our own power. The Spirit enables us to keep ourselves, ensures that we will keep ourselves:
* or to "make our calling and election sure, as it is God Who is working in us to will and work for His good pleasure," as Paul says in Philippians 2
* but that we are "by God’s power... being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," as Peter says in 1 Peter 1
* that "the testing (by God) of our (God-given) faith produces steadfastness, and we are to let this steadfastness have its full effect, that we may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing," as James says in James 1
* in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life," but the Holy Spirit "...is able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of (God's) glory with great joy," as Jude says in verses 21-25 of his epistle
* but that we are "by God’s power... being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," as Peter says in 1 Peter 1
* that "the testing (by God) of our (God-given) faith produces steadfastness, and we are to let this steadfastness have its full effect, that we may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing," as James says in James 1
* in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life," but the Holy Spirit "...is able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of (God's) glory with great joy," as Jude says in verses 21-25 of his epistle
No, "OSAS" ~ Once Saved Always Saved properly understood, because again, the "OSAS" you keep referring to seems to be those believing the heresy of antinomianism ~ says "if," also, but acknowledge that in this life, sin is inevitable, that even for those who have been born again, sin cannot be completely avoided because of their still fallen ~ but being made perfect (James 1) ~ nature. This is the "old man" being transformed into the "new man" by the power of the Holy Spirit. And this work will be made complete at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). So no, "OSAS" does not in any way "lie against Scripture," but only affirms it. The problem is your lies against "OSAS" ~ or perhaps you're listening to the wrong "OSAS's"...
~ as has been proven over and over again.Grace and peace to you, Robert.
OSAS when properly understand will lead to one have full assurance of their own salvation, and a real desire to love and please lord Jesus!No, "OSAS" does not say that, but only that we are kept by the power of the Spirit, not in our own power. The Spirit enables us to keep ourselves, ensures that we will keep ourselves:
* or to "make our calling and election sure, as it is God Who is working in us to will and work for His good pleasure," as Paul says in Philippians 2
* but that we are "by God’s power... being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," as Peter says in 1 Peter 1
* that "the testing (by God) of our (God-given) faith produces steadfastness, and we are to let this steadfastness have its full effect, that we may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing," as James says in James 1
* in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life," but the Holy Spirit "...is able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of (God's) glory with great joy," as Jude says in verses 21-25 of his epistle
No, "OSAS" ~ Once Saved Always Saved properly understood, because again, the "OSAS" you keep referring to seems to be those believing the heresy of antinomianism ~ says "if," also, but acknowledge that in this life, sin is inevitable, that even for those who have been born again, sin cannot be completely avoided because of their still fallen ~ but being made perfect (James 1) ~ nature. This is the "old man" being transformed into the "new man" by the power of the Holy Spirit. And this work will be made complete at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). So no, "OSAS" does not in any way "lie against Scripture," but only affirms it. The problem is your lies against "OSAS" ~ or perhaps you're listening to the wrong "OSAS's"...
Grace and peace to you, Robert.
RD,
This is what I posted:
Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.
Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8
And above is your reply.
I believe calvinism has problems built-in the doctrine because it cannot be reconciled properly to what the N.T. teaches.
You said the above persons knew God and turned from God and God gave them over to reprobate mind.
A NON-calvinist could make that statement...but not a calvinist.
If you read what Calvin stated again, you'll find that it's GOD that made the person THINK they were saved...
and then God pulled the salvation away.
Doesn't sound like the God of the N.T., does it?
Then you say the person was being saved but was not being saved at all and then being saved by another Christ.
I've never even heard this before so the only comment I have is this:
The persons were doing exactly what God predestinated them to do.
They have NOTHING to do with their salvation...so your comments are mute.
That doesn't really explain what Calvin stated, does it JF?
Problem is, calvinism has many doctrinal problems.
And I agree with @Cooper
the teachings are false.
Ummmm
Calvinists cannot have the assurance that they are really saved until they get to the end of their life.
This is because they cannot be absolutely sure that God really chose them.
Many of the reformed faith doubt their salvation....
No, as we have full assurance of our salvation based upon the promises of Jesus to save to the uttermost all that he saves!
Calvinism very consistent with the scriptures, as we really do understanding what happened to us spiritually as a direct result of the Fall!
John calvin was a great theologian. but not inspired!
many who are not calvinist seem to think that we who are calvinist see him as the source of our theology , but we do not, as we see only the scripturesd as being inspired!
How do you know Jesus chose YOU?
There is no assurance UNLESS you choose God.
You can be sure that YOU chose God...
How do you know you're not one of those spoken of in my post?
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8
You can't be...until the end of your life.
Don't other Christians understand what happened at the fall?
Why do you suppose that calvinists are so far superior in their knowledge of God?
Jesus said to be humble in the sermon on the mount...Matthew 5
Are you humble?
Or are you proud because God chose You?
I agree that John Calvin was a great theologian.
Too bad he was a calvinist ! LOL
And, BTW, he IS the source of your theology.
This is why it's called Calvinism.
Of course the real source is Augustine, who did not believe as other Christians of his time...
Calvin loved Augustine. He mentions him a lot in his Institutes.
Maybe Augustine was wrong?
That would make Calvin wrong too...
Not saying superior, as saved by Grace as a lost sinner, but some do not seem to know that we lost full free will as a result of the fall!
NO Calvinist would claim either of them as our sources for doctrines, as that would be inspired scriptures only, Sola Scriptura!
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