Homosexuality

[Vengle]

There is so much error in your post, Vengle, that it is hard to know where to begin. Your opening statement is totally untrue and everyone of the scriptures you list is taken out of context. I won't even bother.

Take your time FHI.

I am not growing old that fast.

I hope.

 

[Vengle]

What again? I've discussed most of these verses in the past. For example, Hebrews 10:26 is talking about one particular sin of the spirit which is listed in verse 25. 2 Peter 1:9 is dependant on having certain traits listed in the preceding verses. If you don't have those qualities, then you are blind and have forgotten that the sins of the flesh are clensed. And to pluck any verse out of Romans to suggest we must stop sinning and grace doesn't cover all sins, past present and future is to ignore the entirety of the book.

I can sympathize with what a homosexual must feel that causes him to compromise the commandments of God with his rationalizations.

Believe me when I tell you that as a single heterosexual male I face that enticement probably in a more intensive way than you. God did an absolutely wonderful job of designing woman as our mate.

So I have found that there is even a push today by many to say that sex between an unmarried man and woman is not a sin. And they too believe that they can produce proof of that in the Bible.

When we rationalize what the scriptures say as you are doing concerning homosexuality where does it end? If you can do that as regards that thing the Bible forbids as sin, then why can't we all just pick and choose what we believe is sin and not sin? We could certainly rationalize the scriptures to justify our being able to do so. That is in fact what many have done with Paul's words in Romans chapter 7.

Now let's reconsider what you said about Hebrews 10:26 and 2 Peter 1:9.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

So doing what Hebrews 10:26 says ruins that. And the worst part is that it disrespects Christ body by bringing unholy, impure conduct into it and then using it as a guise for lawlessness.

2 Peter 1:9 simply seals that with the thought that you did not appreciate having been cleansed of your past sins as shown by your going right back to them.

You are rationalizing away the point and the purpose of the scriptures to make them conform to your desires instead of your conforming to God's desires.

The sin against the holy spirit is best defined as any sin you have no excuse not to know is wrong that you make a conscious decision to disobey purely because you do not agree with what the spirit has told you. And it is God's spirit that wrote the scriptures so it is God's spirit you are refusing to comply with.

Sometimes our brain shuts off when we are being tempted. That then as in the case of David and Bathsheba is mercifully not considered sin against the holy spirit. When the brain shuts down being over-whelmed by our carnal nature we might do something we know in our heart is wrong. But then we do not keep repeating it as if to use God's mercy to allow it.

David followed through responsibly taking care of Bathsheba as his error resulted in the death of the husband she depended upon. So that was not counted against him but his sin of adultery and his part in her husbands death was punished.

We often say as I have also been guilty of that David in effect murdered her husband but the Bible never says that. And David had no way to know for certain he would die. He probably rationalized that he would let God choose whether he lived or died.

 

[teamventure]

what strikes me as odd is why on the topic of homosexuality, people try to justify it.
i've heard many more attempts to justify homosexual lifestyles than fornication or idolatry ect..
why can't you people accept the truth?

 

[Vengle]

what strikes me as odd is why on the topic of homosexuality, people try to justify it.
i've heard many more attempts to justify homosexual lifestyles than fornication or idolatry ect..
why can't you people accept the truth?

I can guarantee you that there is a ton of premarital sex that goes on between straight unmarried couples who say they believe in God, also.

Why? Because our carnal nature is like an addict that craves things. If you want to describe lust in modern terms, there it is.

Even our prisons now recognize that the reason they have so many repeat offenders is that these individuals get caught up in an addictive cycle.

The scriptures refer to this as the deceptive power of sin: Hebrews 3:13 "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

Many of us read that and we conclude that what it is saying is that when we sin, we are being deceitful. But it is not. It is telling us what it is about sin that hardens us, that is, locks us into the cycle of sin.

It is an awareness that sin is a trap which causes many to want to see God's grace as excusing us almost completely from sin. But if we carry the reasoning on through it fails the test of logic. And then we can also see the rest of what the scriptures tell us so as to clearly know God's grace does not cover our sin to that extent. But those who merely sense this through their faculty of awareness do not yet understand it enough to be able to reason it through, though they try to make decisions concerning its implications and how God must approach it if he is really loving and merciful by their personal estimation.

And God is indeed very patient with us and He dose continue his love and mercy toward us quite some way, so long as we demonstrate a desire to listen to His instruction of us. That is what His commandments are; His instructions to us for our own benefit.

And this is why He often will dump us in and pull us out of the fire many times during our lifetime, not just simply cutting us off the first time we sin.

Homosexuals are no different in their sin that we are in ours. They like as we like to do what makes them feel good. And telling them that they have no scriptural right to feel good through same sex, affects them the same way we would be affected if someone told us that we were no longer allowed to marry and enjoy sexual relations with a mate.

Much of this is caused in that they have believed the world's lie that they were born that way. Even the scriptures say there are eunuchs that were born that way but a eunuch does not engage in sex. And the hard truth that most homosexuals having been affected by the world's popularized belief that they were born that way will not consider that the real reason is what they were taught and the way they let their experiences influence them. If they had not had that lie in their head about being born that way then the vast majority would never have even thought through their experiences that they were homosexual, let alone engage in such activity.

God will have plenty of mercy on them but he will not excuse them if they show that they just do not desire to hear Him.

As for us, it ours to remember that we are not judges in this life. We all have one that will judge us.

So we are wrong when we treat them any differently beyond keeping the things that God has said are unclean out of His holy temple, which is the church. That does not mean showing them disrespect or barring them from coming in to listen. It means not baptizing them and calling them a member. It means marking them in a way as to be aware that their thinking might infect our children. But it does not mean treating them disrespectfully.

Sure, they will claim that this that I described is disrespecting them, but you have the right to say who comes in your house as a member. God is the one who says who enters His as a member. And non-members must respect the rules in the house in which they are a visitor or it is only right that they be kept totally out.

That is a summation of what the Bible describes God as expecting of us.

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye (ye=plural) not that ye (as in, you people) are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you (again plural, as in, the goup of you)?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 ¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The temple of God is the light of God in this world and it must be kept shining His holiness to remain that light.

 

[teamventure]

good post. however, i was only addressing the fact of people trying to justify homosexuality in a higher ratio then other sins. not seperating homosexuality from other sins. sin is sin. but for some reason a lot of people try to justify homosexuality. if i heard people trying to justify fornication between a man and a woman then i would say something about that.

 

[Vengle]

good post. however, i was only addressing the fact of people trying to justify homosexuality in a higher ratio then other sins. not seperating homosexuality from other sins. sin is sin. but for some reason a lot of people try to justify homosexuality. if i heard people trying to justify fornication between a man and a woman then i would say something about that.

Yes, I am probably relating to what I have copied the mail about on Yahoo Answers.

When someone asks if it is a sin for an unmarried man and woman to engage in sex, they always get a ton of people both Christian and Atheist claiming it isn't.

This world that prides itself in knowledge is actually approaching its peak of insanity.

 

[teamventure]

well then i would adress that issue. i guess people will try to make excuses and twist scripture to fit how they live instead of changing how they live to fit scripture.

 

[FHII]

The reason people seem to defend homosexuality (which I'm not... It is a sin and there's no getting around it) is because it 1. prevailent today, and 2. because in most people's minds it is one of the "big sins". People aren't willing to admit that grace covers that too. Everyone loves the idea that grace covers eating pork, shrimp, crabs, and everyone loves the idea that grace covers wearing cloth of mixed thread because most people do it and it's considered a "little sin".

 

[FHII]

Vengle,

Like I said, you've made so many mistakes in your post it's too tiresome to address them all in complete detail. I will not try, but ok... I will point out them.

First, you stated something to the effect that grace only covers past sins that one repents from, and not sins that you will commit in the future and/or sins that you knowingly do. That is not correct by the scripture. While grace does cover old sins and sins you have repented from, it doesn't stop there. The sacrifices of the OT law did that too. Jesus' sacrifice was more than an offering of bulls and goats. Jesus's sacrifice was once and for all. By accepting that sacrifice, there is a remission of sins (not because we remiss them, but because he did). If you read and consider the entire chapter of Hebrews 10 instead of just verses 22 and 26 (instead of not reading them in proper context) you will see that because it is one of the greatest chapters showing the difference between the sacrifices of the Law and Jesus' sacrifice.

In short, by you saying grace only covers past sins that you repent of (by which you mean "stop doing"), you have reduced the death of Jesus down to "bull and goat sacrifice" status.

I've stated this already in another post. Your use of Hebrews 10:26 is out of context. It's talking about one particular spiritual sin, which is forsaking the assembling. It basically says don't skip going to Church. People hate to hear that, but that is what it is saying. I noticed you then tried to connect 26 with verse 22 which says, "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." You are missing how it is done (not to mention skipping a bunch of verses inbetween). Its not something we do, but something that Jesus did. Our sins are forgiven, washed and clensed not because we stop doing them, but because Jesus has paid for them.

Your use of 2 Peter 1:9 also is without proper context. It starts out by saying "He that lacketh these things..." That's a clue that this verse is connected to the previous verses. Nothing in these verses suggest that grace doesnt cover all sins, but only sins of the past.

As for your use of Romans 6, you are making the same error many others make. The entire book of Romans is focused on the power of grace, not any limitation you may think it has. Picking verses out of chapter 6 is to disregard chapter 5 which is another great chapter describing how powerful grace is.

Lastly, I will briefly comment on repenting. People often have a very small focus on this subject. If you pick one sin and repent (stop doing it) fine. But if you want full forgiveness you must individually repent of each and every sin you commit and then never do them. That includes even the ones you don't know about or the ones you are really guilty of, but don't think you are.

Furthermore, "repent" does not mean stop doing. It means to turn away or feel sorry for. To stop sinning as a means of repentance is something that the Bible says is impossible in the flesh. The more effective way is to repent from being a sinner (which means in the flesh you are going to still sin, but it is not held accountable to your spiritual man).

there are plenty of verses to back that up, and I can fully discuss the verses you listed with other verses that show the proper context. However, it'd take too long; it'd bore too many people; and it would allow you and anyone else to focus on one particular thing instead of looking at the whole of the matter. I've been around these boards far too long not to realize that if you list 19 strong verses and one that someone finds questionable, they will attack the one and not focus on the 19 that clearly make the point.

 

[FHII]

By the way, Vengle, I don't agree with your belief that sins against the Holy Spirit are "sins you have no excuse not to know is wrong". Sins against the spirit have nothing to do with fleshly actions. Sins against the spirit are spiritual in nature and deal with error in proper and truthful worship. Mark 3:28-29 clears that up.

Also, I don't want anyone to think I'm defending Homosexuality. I'm not.... I am defending grace through faith, and the truth that it covers all sins of the flesh.

 

[Vengle]

By the way, Vengle, I don't agree with your belief that sins against the Holy Spirit are "sins you have no excuse not to know is wrong". Sins against the spirit have nothing to do with fleshly actions. Sins against the spirit are spiritual in nature and deal with error in proper and truthful worship. Mark 3:28-29 clears that up.

Also, I don't want anyone to think I'm defending Homosexuality. I'm not.... I am defending grace through faith, and the truth that it covers all sins of the flesh.

I know that answer makes sense to you. I have said over and over again that we see what what we believe.

What you are not considering about Mark 3:28-29 is that blasphemy can be done both intentionally with full awareness or unintentionally through pure emotion before we are aware of what we are doing.

If you ponder the case of Ananias and his wife, Sapphira, you will see that the crucial element was playing false to the holy spirit by lying to God.

Acts 5:4 "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

What do we learn from that? (1) We learn that they knew what the holy spirit had told them. (2) We see that they obviously did not like what the holy spirit had told them. And, (3) we see that they knowingly and deliberately tried to get away with deception in total disregard for what they knew the holy spirit had told them.

We must be careful, for blasphemy against the holy spirit is exactly what we see there just as I described. And that means that we can commit most any sin in a way which constitutes blaspheming the holy spirit.

You can deny that if you wish. But I fear for you if you do.

 

[FHII]

I know that answer makes sense to you. I have said over and over again that we see what what we believe.

What you are not considering about Mark 3:28-29 is that blasphemy can be done both intentionally with full awareness or unintentionally through pure emotion before we are aware of what we are doing.

If you ponder the case of Ananias and his wife, Sapphira, you will see that the crucial element was playing false to the holy spirit by lying to God.

Acts 5:4 "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

What do we learn from that? (1) We learn that they knew what the holy spirit had told them. (2) We see that they obviously did not like what the holy spirit had told them. And, (3) we see that they knowingly and deliberately tried to get away with deception in total disregard for what they knew the holy spirit had told them.

We must be careful, for blasphemy against the holy spirit is exactly what we see there just as I described. And that means that we can commit most any sin in a way which constitutes blaspheming the holy spirit.

You can deny that if you wish. But I fear for you if you do.

Like I said, it was a spiritual sin (and yes, it was intentional), not one of the flesh. I understand you have a hard time differentiating sins of the flesh and sins of the spirit. Most people who have a hard time understanding grace do because they see what they want to see. It should be easy though: sins against the Holy Spirit are sins agains what is holy and what is spiritual; not what is carnal. You even quoted that they didn't sin against man (flesh) but against God (spirit).

 

[Vengle]

Like I said, it was a spiritual sin (and yes, it was intentional), not one of the flesh. I understand you have a hard time differentiating sins of the flesh and sins of the spirit. Most people who have a hard time understanding grace do because they see what they want to see. It should be easy though: sins against the Holy Spirit are sins agains what is holy and what is spiritual; not what is carnal. You even quoted that they didn't sin against man (flesh) but against God (spirit).

That is correct. It is sins of the spirit that constitute blasphemy of the spirit. That is a very astute acknowledgement.

If we know what the spirit tells us and we consciously choose to deliberately spurn what it tells us preferring to go the way of our carnal desires, then it is a sin in our spirit. For we would not know what the holy spirit had said otherwise.

That is what I said in the previous post but in different wording.

You are correct.

In fact, you are correct that most people do not understand that.

But also, some that do understand it resist it and limit its application for their own convenience.

 

[Prentis]

Grace is the power of God to overcome all sins, not cover them!

There is mercy, don't get me wrong. But grace is not mercy, though it is given as a gift (freely given to the one who repents), it is the empowerement of God to do his will.

 

[FHII]

Grace is the power of God to overcome all sins, not cover them!

There is mercy, don't get me wrong. But grace is not mercy, though it is given as a gift (freely given to the one who repents), it is the empowerement of God to do his will.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Prentis]

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, by the work of Christ, many are reconciled to God and taught to walk in righteousness! And by his blood, our past sins are forgiven!

 

[FHII]

Yes, by the work of Christ, many are reconciled to God and taught to walk in righteousness! And by his blood, our past sins are forgiven!

These verses say that our sins are covered and we are made righteous by Jesus Christ. Yes, our sins are forgiven, but they are also covered.

 

[Vengle]

That is right what you are saying Prentis.

Our past sins became completely covered the moment they were confessed and forsaken from our way. (Repentance)

We cannot just make a blanket statement that our present and future sins are forgiven or covered as they require repentance also.

And if we sin in our spirit it will not be forgiven or covered, not in this world or that one to come.

 

[FHII]

It doesn's say "past sins are covered". It says, "Blessed are they whose iniquities ARE forgiven, and whos sins ARE covered."

READ IT AS IT SAYS IT!!!!

 

[Vengle]

It doesn's say "past sins are covered". It says, "Blessed are they whose iniquities ARE forgiven, and whos sins ARE covered."

READ IT AS IT SAYS IT!!!!

But your way of seeing it leaves out its purpose. Go ahead and put God to the test if you must.


The context you are missing is this:

Proverbs 28:13 "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."


Was there anything about the way that was said which makes you think it has suddenly changed?


That is the problem with modern prideful theology. It makes God out to have changed. That works better for men than their changing themselves.