Homosexuality

[FHII]

Psalms 28 has nothing to do with Romans 4:7. Read it as it says! Don't add to it or take away from it.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him saying, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[Vengle]

Are you out there FHI?

Hello !!!

Romans 4:7 is but a quote of the Psalms.


And as you quoted, "by every word of God."

Proverbs 28:13 is the word of God. Do you try to change what it says?

 

[FHII]

Are you out there FHI?

Hello !!!

Romans 4:7 is but a quote of the Psalms.


And as you quoted, "by every word of God."

Proverbs 28:13 is the word of God. Do you try to change what it says?

Excuse me... Proverbs 28. But Romans 4:7 isn't about Proverbs 28 either.

 

[Vengle]

Excuse me... Proverbs 28. But Romans 4:7 isn't about Proverbs 28 either.

Ok, if you believe so then to you it is so.

 

[teamventure]

FHll, what are you trying to say? do you believe that one can willfully sin and that he'll be ok?

 

[FHII]

FHll, what are you trying to say? do you believe that one can willfully sin and that he'll be ok?

Not only can but does willfully sin. I'm not suggesting anyone actually go out and try to sin, but every day everyone is committing one sin or another, and knowingly so. I've laid this out before long time ago, but very briefly here it is:

1. The Bible says that if you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of the whole law.
2. Jesus said if you so much think a sin, you are guilty of it.
3. Yes; murder, rape, adultry and homosexuality are sins, and easy to be against. However, so is eating many things most of us enjoy every day from ham, pork and almost any kind of seafood that isn't a fish (and even some fish like catfish and shark).
4. You can't own a house without a battlement (and please don't tell me it no longer applies because most people don't go on the roof anymore. While that is true, God never rescinded it).
5. Polyester is out, as is any other garment made from more than one type of fiber.
6. You can't plant one type of crop next to another.
7. You can't be a priest if you have a crooked nose, crooked back or "bruised stones".

There's a lot of other laws that I agree aren't really that big a deal to humans. However, they are still God's laws. And if you are guilty of one of them, you are guilty of the whole law, and thus if you keep one of them, you must keep them all. So whether you eat shrimp or commit murder, you are still a transgressor of the law. You are still a sinner. I absolutely agree I would rather be around a shrimp eater than a murderer. That doesn't change the fact that in God's eyes, both are guilty. Furthermore, even though God made, "don't kill" part of his top ten (by human standards), he also told Israel to kill entire countries of people. he never once told them it was ok to eat shrimp!

I know I'm taking it to an extreme, however its true. I'll even admit that chances are a murderer, rapist and even a homosexual probably cares very little about what God thinks of him or her and thus, they probably will never be Christians as opposed to a shrimp eater. However, are you going to say anyone doesn't willfully sin every day? Have you repented from wearing polyester and vow never to wear it again? See it's easy to pin that "willfully sinning and repent" point on a murderer, but no one wants to do it for a shrimp eater. Big sin vs. little sin mentality. But where do you draw the line between the two extremes?

I absolutely believe that grace through faith covers all sins: past present and future. Intentional or unintentional. Faith may give you the power to overcome them (especially the intentional) and praise God for that. However, grace covers even those that aren't overcome (by means of not doing them).

People like to use Hebrews 10:26 (for if we sin willfully...), but if you look at verse 25 you see that verse 26 is talking about one particular spiritual sin which is missing the assembly and more to the point, Church. I say "Church" because there is a process of getting faith, which is learning of him through a preacher. That's from Romans 10.

Now, consider the other point of view. Folks will say we are saved by faith, clensed by grace and not under the law, but then turn around and say we have to follow the law. That doesn't make sense!

 

[FHII]

But your way of seeing it leaves out its purpose. Go ahead and put God to the test if you must.


The context you are missing is this:

Proverbs 28:13 "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."


Was there anything about the way that was said which makes you think it has suddenly changed?


That is the problem with modern prideful theology. It makes God out to have changed. That works better for men than their changing themselves.

So you think that Proverbs 28:13 is linked to Romans 4:7? Read Pro 28 more carefully. "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper..." Yes, if you try to cover your own sins, you won't prosper! Romans 4:7 isn't talking about you covering your own sins. It's talking about Jesus Christ covering our sins.

 

[Vengle]

So you think that Proverbs 28:13 is linked to Romans 4:7? Read Pro 28 more carefully. "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper..." Yes, if you try to cover your own sins, you won't prosper! Romans 4:7 isn't talking about you covering your own sins. It's talking about Jesus Christ covering our sins.

That then proves repentance and forsaking sin is required even now, does it not?

That is all I have been saying. Your sins are not automatically forgiven and covered now any more than they were then.

The only difference is you do not need to go make an animal sacrifice for your sins. But you yet do have to do the things that keep you ceremonially clean and able to approach God in Christ. And that is done by appreciating the sacrifice of Christ enough that you do not keep sacrificing him over and over again. That translates to obedience born of faith which works by love.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[FHII]

That then proves repentance and forsaking sin is required even now, does it not?

That is all I have been saying. Your sins are not automatically forgiven and covered now any more than they were then.

The only difference is you do not need to go make an animal sacrifice for your sins. But you yet do have to do the things that keep you ceremonially clean and able to approach God in Christ. And that is done by appreciating the sacrifice of Christ enough that you do not keep sacrificing him over and over again. That translates to obedience born of faith which works by love.

No. It doesn't. The fact that Proverbs 28:13 has no connection to Romans 4:7 doesn't prove that repentance and forsaking sin is required. Why? Because they aren't connected! Repentance.... I repented ONCE for ALL. I will not again repent for dead works. I did it once and that is enough. I'm moving on to perfection. Christ died once for all, and when he did he offered one sacrifice for sin for ever. It's done.

"The only difference is you do not need to go make an animal sacrifice for your sins."


Well, appearently the animals are the only ones who got grace then, by your thinking.

The Bible says I am free from the law. You say I still have to follow it.

 

[Vengle]

I repented ONCE for ALL. I will not again repent for dead works. I did it once and that is enough. I'm moving on to perfection.

What is that?

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1 ¶My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

[FHII]

What is that?

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1 ¶My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Is there something you don't understand?

 

[Prentis]

These verses say that our sins are covered and we are made righteous by Jesus Christ. Yes, our sins are forgiven, but they are also covered.

[sup]5[/sup]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[sup]6[/sup]Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
[sup]7[/sup]That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Is there no power in the gospel?

We are called to repent, that is, change our minds, and leave our old sins behind to move on with God. He empowers us to walk free from sin.

 

[us2are1]

That then proves repentance and forsaking sin is required even now, does it not?

That is all I have been saying. Your sins are not automatically forgiven and covered now any more than they were then.

The only difference is you do not need to go make an animal sacrifice for your sins. But you yet do have to do the things that keep you ceremonially clean and able to approach God in Christ. And that is done by appreciating the sacrifice of Christ enough that you do not keep sacrificing him over and over again. That translates to obedience born of faith which works by love.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Amen Vengle

[sup]5[/sup]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[sup]6[/sup]Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
[sup]7[/sup]That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Is there no power in the gospel?

We are called to repent, that is, change our minds, and leave our old sins behind to move on with God. He empowers us to walk free from sin.

Amen Prentis

 

[FHII]

[sup]5[/sup]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[sup]6[/sup]Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
[sup]7[/sup]That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Is there no power in the gospel?

We are called to repent, that is, change our minds, and leave our old sins behind to move on with God. He empowers us to walk free from sin.

I've already commented on this so if you want to talk about it, please at least read or respond to my post.

 

[Prentis]

No. It doesn't. The fact that Proverbs 28:13 has no connection to Romans 4:7 doesn't prove that repentance and forsaking sin is required. Why? Because they aren't connected! Repentance.... I repented ONCE for ALL. I will not again repent for dead works. I did it once and that is enough. I'm moving on to perfection. Christ died once for all, and when he did he offered one sacrifice for sin for ever. It's done.

"The only difference is you do not need to go make an animal sacrifice for your sins."


Well, appearently the animals are the only ones who got grace then, by your thinking.

The Bible says I am free from the law. You say I still have to follow it.

Jesus still says you have to follow the law of righteousness; 'love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself'.

We do such a dangerous thing when we take the words of Paul and interpret them on their own, in a way that disagrees with Jesus, yet it is so popular today.

This shows that Paul is not talking about being no longer accountable for righteousness, but being actually freed from the law of sin and death.

We do not follow the sacrificial law, rather we walk in freedom of the Spirit. But that means we are free to please him, not do what we want! Are we so foolish that we think somehow we can be neither slave of righteousness nor a slave of sin? That we can be free in that sense? We are called to follow him. He who does this faithfully will be saved.

 

[[email protected]]

From the choir loft:

I see here in the general posts a consensus of opinion that there is something wrong with the gay life style. Some quote scripture and some argue their point of view. The Biblical teaching is quite clear on the matter, it's forbidden.

We now move to issues of social application.
* Should homosexuality in our communities be accepted as a point of principle (since few who support it acknowledge the Word of God).
* Should Christians give their support and encouragement to those who are proud of their disobedience?
* Should Christians support political persons who admit to the gay life style?
* Should Christians applaud and recognize their deeds as being of social benefit.

And issues of gospel importance.
* How should the gospel be presented to gay persons, since they believe their 'love' is pure and have already taken the moral high ground on that basis?
* Jesus ate and drank with sinners. Does that mean Christians are to 'mingle' with gay folk?
* The Bible says that God is love, yet did He not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah from wrath (proving He is also just)? How do we present the God of justice to men and women who's idea of love is skewed and rebellious?

 

[THE Gypsy]

I see here in the general posts a consensus of opinion that there is something wrong with the gay life style. Some quote scripture and some argue their point of view. The Biblical teaching is quite clear on the matter, it's forbidden.

Many things are "forbidden" not just homosexuality.

* How should the gospel be presented to gay persons, since they believe their 'love' is pure and have already taken the moral high ground on that basis?

Why would the Gospel be presented any differently to someone who is gay than it would to a thief? Liar? Prostitute? Or anyone that does not know Christ?

How do we present the God of justice to men and women who's idea of love is skewed and rebellious?

All people that do not know Christ have a "skewed and rebellious" "idea of love".

 

[Vengle]

It breaks our hearts, doesn't it Rip.

One thing that growing closer to God and being taught of Christ has done for me is to clear away the bitterness over struggles in this life which used to blind me to really seeing and loving others.

As I learned hope for the mountain like struggles in my own life and that mountain was moved aside I could see other peoples struggles more clearly. And I could see that I was not alone the victim of this world's ways. And that allowed me to see others through eyes of compassion and that compassion allowed me to begin to really love them.

So it now hurts where I see those caught drowning in their confusion and it is become as reaching out with my hand to a drowning child whom I cannot seem to get close enough to pull up from their disaster.

That child has to be calm enough to help in the process. That child needs to do its part in paddling closer to us. But those whose hearts are bent to love the thing that is consuming them paddle away from our desire to help them.

 

[FHII]

Jesus still says you have to follow the law of righteousness; 'love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself'.

We do such a dangerous thing when we take the words of Paul and interpret them on their own, in a way that disagrees with Jesus, yet it is so popular today.

This shows that Paul is not talking about being no longer accountable for righteousness, but being actually freed from the law of sin and death.

We do not follow the sacrificial law, rather we walk in freedom of the Spirit. But that means we are free to please him, not do what we want! Are we so foolish that we think somehow we can be neither slave of righteousness nor a slave of sin? That we can be free in that sense? We are called to follow him. He who does this faithfully will be saved.

Really Prentis???? You want to talk about the law of righteousness and compare what Jesus said to what Paul said (and somehow pin it on me that I'm making Paul sound contradictory)? You should really do a study on what that law of righteousness is.

That that phrase you put in bold: "law of sin and death". That's from Romans 8.

"There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit."

It says there is no condemnation... It doesn't say there's no condemnation because they actually stop sinning.

"For the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death"

Yes, there it is... We are free from the law of sin and death. It wasn't our fleshly performance that did it, it was the Law of the spirit of life, which is in Christ Jesus; not our fleshly performance.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

The law of sin and death -- which is the law of Moses -- couldn't get the job done, not because it wasn't good and righteous, but because it was too big for our flesh to handle. Moses was the FIRST ONE to break that Law (literally)! The next part says the Jesus who condemned sin in the flesh. What you are going to read about later in this chapter (and by backing up to chapter 7) is that he didn't condemn "us" at all. He condemned sin which was in our flesh. Before you begin thinking that that means we stop sinning and therefore we are free, please read chapter 7 and you will see that Paul said, "no, we still sin in the flesh." We are just not to mind the things of the flesh, even though they still happen.

"that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit."

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (by what? Jesus Christ! Not our doings. Its not fulfilled in us because we don't walk after the flesh and do walk after the spirit. We walk after the spirit (and not the flesh) BECAUSE Christ fulfilled the law.

Now, that might be a good time to interject that we have the power to stop sinning. Not true. Remember from Chapter 7 Paul said that isn't so.

"They that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit, the things of the spirit."

So are you minding the things of the flesh or the things of the spirit? Yes, you are absolutely right that we are free to please him! Absolutely! However, it's not because we actually follow the Law of Moses. It's because there is no condemnation for it. Our sins are covered (remember that arguement, Prentis? "covered doesn't mean "stop doing".), and God no longer is looking at the fleshly performance.

"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. For the carnal mind is emnity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Some of the most carnally minded people are so called Christians who are minding the things of the flesh. "Thou shalt not smoke! Thou shalt not drink! No lusting! No homosexuals!" Who's really looking at the flesh now? Who's trying to make the carnal mind and the fleshly body something that these verses can't be done? It's not the person doing them if he or she is walking by faith. Don't believe me?

"So then, they that are in the flesh cannot please God"

While he was saying that, Paul was still in the flesh and writing to people who were still alive in the flesh..."

"But ye are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwelleth in you. No if any man have not the spirit of God, he is none of his."

Paul was talking to the spiritual man (the Roman Church of that era) inside carnal beings. They were still in sinful flesh. Yet, Paul says they weren't in the flesh, while he too was physically in the flesh.

"And if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit gives life because of righteousness"

Right here, right now, if Christ is in us, the body is dead! Yet, as I'm actually through fleshly fingers typing this and you will no doubt respond in like fashion... We're still here in the flesh.

It goes on an on.... I could've started at Chapter 5 (or earlier) and kept going... But I am not going to list every verse in the book and show you why not being under the law doesn't mean keeping it.

So, now we know a little bit more about the righteousness of the law. Let's look at what you defined as the law of righteousness and how Jesus defined it and how Paul defined it.

You said the law of righteousness is: 'love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself'.

That's not the law of righteousness, though it is a part of it. What you did is merged two verses together from Matthew 23 (which is fine in this case). Jesus didn't call them the law of righteousness, he said they were the first and second great commandments, which all the law of the prophets hangs upon.

Here's what Paul said the law of righteousness was:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
That's what Paul said the Law of Righteousness was. Christ was the end (fulfillment, conclusion, result and payment of) of that law. Verse 9 says more specifically how we obtain that law: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."


What did Jesus say the law of righteousness was? He never did except through the words of Paul, and Paul said it was HIM. And nowhere did it say anything about stop sinning. Furthermore, I'd like to ask you where it says we are free from the sacrifical law only and not the whole law?

 

[Prentis]

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Unless we are following the Spirit, following Jesus, we are not abiding.

If Christ is a one time ticket you punch and doesn't require anything on our part, then why does it say 'add to your faith these things' and 'make your calling and election sure'? Why does it say 'the love of God is that you do his commandments' and 'He (Christ) became the source of salvation to all those who OBEY him'?

We please him by faith! Which means taking him at his word and being faithful.

God bless you, FHII!