What is Predetermined?

[PinSeeker]

God was just speaking of those who would live righteous.

Paul's (God's, because He, by His Spirit, breathed Paul's words into him) context in Romans 8-9 and Ephesians 1-2 is clearly not that. He clearly speaks of both sides of the coin, especially in Romans 9, cited above.

The righteous are vessels of his glory.

His elect. Right. But Paul does talk about, in Romans 9, those created for dishonorable use also, and says they they are the ones prepared for destruction, whom God endures with much patience; these are vessels of wrath.

It could be anyone who listens and applies and lives righteous.

Anybody, Keiw, can do righteous things, but still not be righteous. And we're really talking about the righteousness of Christ, which is imputed to those in Christ, vessels of God's mercy, because of His mercy. These are His elect. But yeah, even those not imputed with the righteousness of Christ (because they are not among God's elect) can and certainly do do good things, at least from time to time and possibly quite often. But unfortunately, they are much like Cain, in that God does not honor their "good things," because they do not do them in faith (which is itself the gift of God ~ Ephesians 2), but only in self-justification.

Remember--Jesus died for all, meant he opened the door to all. Few find it.

Well, like I have said several times, Jesus died for all only in the sense that His death was sufficient to accomplish the salvation of all. But it was only really for the ones who would earnestly seek and yes, find, that door (which is Jesus Christ) because of God's work in them by His Spirit. Salvation is of the Lord. As the hymnist writes:

"Crown him the Lord of life,
Who triumphed o'er the grave,
And rose victorious in the strife,
For those he came to save..."
Crown Him with Many Crowns

Augustine of Hippo, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards... and all those that have come in between and after... did not and do not "put the cart before the horse," as it were.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

His elect. Right. But Paul does talk about, in Romans 9, those created for dishonorable use also, and says they they are the ones prepared for destruction, whom God endures with much patience; these are vessels of wrath.

Don't forget what Paul also said:

2 Timothy 2:
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

[Hidden In Him]

His will should be distinguished from what He desires, which is that all would come to knowledge of the truth. Much in the same way as you and I might desire something but overrule our desire with our will for, well, some good reason.

Greetings, PinSeeker.

What would be the good reason in the Lord's case then?

 

[Oceanprayers]

Jesus shows you your error in thinking at Matt 7:22-23-- these believe like you--that they have Jesus but he assures them he never even knew them. 1Cor 9:27-- proves one can fall. Solomon fell to false god worship--Judas fell. Salvation is to the righteous, not to one who practices a sin. Hebrews 10:26 assures--there is no sacrafice left for any who practice a sin. I say the teachers assuring others you are saved are these- 2Cor 11:12-15--Run from them.
The righteous have disowned themselves to follow Jesus- Mark 8:34

No error on my part. The bible is clear. And just as Jesus said about his teaching in parables and why, very often we Christians who participate in these type forums witness yet again his explanation repeating.

I think that is of course because God is eternal. And his word, far more than script on a page, is inate and resonates within all creation.

Salvation and faith is a free irrevocable gift from,of, Omniscient sovereign God.
God who knew us before the womb, God from whence we get our soul, God who knows the number of hairs on our head, and God who said we plan our way but God sets our steps.

God chose us. And no one can take us from him, and of those God chose through Christ,(no one comes to the Father but through me), God tells us he will lose none!

I believe the doctrine of insecurity is blasphemy of the highest order. Because it encapsulates in its expression the Gospel message of eternal life and states in its own wording, that message is not to be believed.

Amazingly, the atmosphere of the doctrine of insecurity is one that rescinds God's sovereignty and imparts the falsehood of man being able to choose to overcome the will and plans of God. And succeed.
To ground that falsity, its sponsors must convince themselves what God said and accomplished on the cross was false and amenable.

And that is why such false doctrinaire of insecurity proponents example the reason Jesus/God said he teaches in parables.
Matthew 13. Mark 4.

 

[PinSeeker]

Greetings, PinSeeker.

What would be the good reason in the Lord's case then?

His own glory. This is why He does everything He does. Paul spells it out there in Romans 9, "in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy..." Now, what He does for His own glory certainly benefits His elect; as Paul says in Romans 8, "...for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose...", so we glory in God. But God's chief end is to bring glory to Himself. As Paul finally says in Romans 11, "...from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory forever. Amen."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Oceanprayers]

None are predestined. God desires all to repent so he does not know who will choose that path. His will is what was predestined.

God doesn't know.
I pray you never share the whole of your teachings on this site .

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@Hidden In Him

Isn't it amazing what fables some prefer with their itching ears.

 

[Hidden In Him]

His own glory. This is why He does everything He does. Paul spells it out there in Romans 9, "in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy..."

This naturally raises the question as to how does predestining some for perdition bring Him glory. You see, one of my major problems with the doctrine is that it does quite the opposite, and makes Him out to be something of a monster. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but it is quite honestly my feelings on the subject. I think the doctrine paints Him in a very, very bad light.

Anyway, how would you say predestining some to be damned brings Him glory rather than ignominy?

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him

Isn't it amazing what fables some prefer with their itching ears.

I'm wanting to be as respectful as I can these days, 1st Century. I've ripped enough people apart in my time, and likely may have to again some day if necessary. But I'm just wanting to have a peaceful discussion this time.

Btw, you wouldn't happen to be Sophie T over at Christian Chat, would you? : ) No big deal if so, but let's just say I prefer getting along with you the way we do here, Lol.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So you name yourself, "lifelong sinner" because you realize you are not one of the elect"? That must not feel very good. How do you cope with knowing you are going to hell, and there isn't anything you can do about it? Certainly not "good news" - what "gospel" means.

reality is different sometimes than what we’d like it to be.

 

[Hidden In Him]

His elect. Right. But Paul does talk about, in Romans 9, those created for dishonorable use also, and says they they are the ones prepared for destruction, whom God endures with much patience; these are vessels of wrath.

I need to go to work for the afternoon, but before I go, I just noticed your post at the top of the page. You were referencing this verse apparently:

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory.

If so, you don't think there might have been some other way He could have made His power known then to predestine some for damnation in the afterlife, if that is how you interpret this verse? Seems an awfully horrific way to display one's power, doesn't it?

About this verse also, isn't the reference to His glory here specifically about making it known upon the vessels of His mercy? I can certainly see Him dispensing glory and mercy upon others as something that would bring Him glory, but deliberately sending people to Hell for no other reason than to display His power? Doesn't that position bother you a little?

I'm asking honestly. I don't understand the mentality.

God bless, and have a pleasant afternoon.

In Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[PinSeeker]

This naturally raises the question as to how does predestining some for perdition bring Him glory. You see, one of my major problems with the doctrine is that it does quite the opposite, and makes Him out to be something of a monster. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but it is quite honestly my feelings on the subject. I think the doctrine paints Him in a very, very bad light.

I completely understand that position, but, well, obviously. think quite the opposite.

Anyway, how would you say predestining some to be damned brings Him glory rather than ignominy?

Well, volumes have been written on this... But in short, I would say three things:

1. Regarding Himself, this is what His justice, which like everything else about Him is perfect, demands, and He cannot compromise it, else He compromise His glory and even Himself. And that He will not do. He says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6). Someone has to pay these wages and satisfy God's justice. This, among other things, is essential to the majesty and the splendor ~ the glory ~ of God.

2. Regarding all His creation (us), everyone ~ everyone ~ is deserving from birth, because of his or her sinful nature, which is inherited by us from, and imputed to us through, Adam, of this damnation. This is actually the natural state of all from birth. But His desire, as noted above, is that everyone would come to knowledge of the truth and thus be saved. So He desires the salvation of all, the good of all in this respect. And this is because of His love of all of us. He "so loved the world that He gave His only Son" (John 3:16). Paul writes in Romans 1 of God's general revelation of Himself, that "...what can be known about God is plain to (all), because God has shown it to (all)... His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made... (s)o (we all) are without excuse."

3. Regarding those who never come to knowledge of the truth, who never accept Christ as Savior and thus rest in Him alone for their salvation, God (as Paul says) "endures them with much patience" and even gives grace ~ what we call common grace, or the grace that He gives which is commonly experienced by all, whether they acknowledge it or not ~ even to these people throughout their earthly lives. He "gives them up to their own passions," as Paul says in Romans 1, and eventually gives them exactly what the choose for themselves.

And, maybe this seems like a cop-out, but who are we to answer back to God and tell Him what we think love is (or is not)? As Isaiah (55:8-9) says, quoting God Himself, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts."

God bless, - H

To you also! Grace and peace to you, Hidden In Him.

 

[Behold]

The answer is in the question: What is predetermined,

The question is....what is predetermined...

The answer is...... Everyone who is born again is predetermined by the foreknowledge of God, to be conformed into the image of Christ.

There is the final answer.

 

[PinSeeker]

I need to go to work for the afternoon, but before I go, I just noticed your post at the top of the page. You were referencing this verse apparently:

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory.

If so, you don't think there might have been some other way He could have made His power known then to predestine some for damnation in the afterlife, if that is how you interpret this verse? Seems an awfully horrific way to display one's power, doesn't it?

Okay, now this is probably going to sound at least somewhat cold, but, I guess God could have come up with another way, but He did what He did; this is how He chose to do it. We may see it as horrific, or monstrous, or something like that, but it's not. See above, and especially Isaiah 55:8-9. Hard as it may be, I would say we just have to accept it.

About this verse also, isn't the reference to His glory here specifically about making it known upon the vessels of His mercy? I can certainly see Him dispensing glory and mercy upon others as something that would bring Him glory, but deliberately sending people to Hell for no other reason than to display His power? Doesn't that position bother you a little?

In that passage, we cannot avoid (though we may want to) the fact that some ~ these vessels of wrath ~ are prepared for destruction. We agree on the part about displaying His power and making known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, but we have to remember that God is love, as I'm sure you well know, so we kind of just have to accept the fact that nothing He does is unloving... even though it may seem that way to us. Here again we go back to Isaiah 55:8-9. Does it bother me a little? Sure it does. But I think we have to say, finally, that we, in our little finite, fallen minds, are not capable in this life of fully understanding, and just accept it for what it is.

I'm asking honestly. I don't understand the mentality.

I understand you well, and appreciate it. I don't fully understand it either. If anyone says they do... I would get away from them. But, well, like He says through Isaiah, His thoughts and ways are not ours. And like David says in Psalm 139, Such knowledge is too wonderful for (us); it is high; (we) cannot attain it."

God bless, and have a pleasant afternoon.

In Christ,
Hidden In Him

Thank you, and the same to you, HIH. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

Okay, now this is probably going to sound at least somewhat cold, but, I guess God could have come up with another way, but He did what He did; this is how He chose to do it. We may see it as horrific, or monstrous, or something like that, but it's not. See above, and especially Isaiah 55:8-9. Hard as it may be, I would say we just have to accept it.


In that passage, we cannot avoid (though we may want to) the fact that some ~ these vessels of wrath ~ are prepared for destruction. We agree on the part about displaying His power and making known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, but we have to remember that God is love, as I'm sure you well know, so we kind of just have to accept the fact that nothing He does is unloving... even though it may seem that way to us. Here again we go back to Isaiah 55:8-9. Does it bother me a little? Sure it does. But I think we have to say, finally, that we, in our little finite, fallen minds, are not capable in this life of fully understanding, and just accept it for what it is.


I understand you well, and appreciate it. I don't fully understand it either. If anyone says they do... I would get away from them. But, well, like He says through Isaiah, His thoughts and ways are not ours. And like David says in Psalm 139, Such knowledge is too wonderful for (us); it is high; (we) cannot attain it."


Thank you, and the same to you, HIH. Grace and peace to you.

One must study the teachings of Jesus, learn them and apply them in all matters of life. Not such an easy task in a satan ruled system. Not so easy to turn the other cheek if someone wrongs you. Pride can easily take over.
The bible is all we have of Gods utterances. Unfortunately many are walking the broad and spacious path.

 

[Keiw]

No error on my part. The bible is clear. And just as Jesus said about his teaching in parables and why, very often we Christians who participate in these type forums witness yet again his explanation repeating.

I think that is of course because God is eternal. And his word, far more than script on a page, is inate and resonates within all creation.

Salvation and faith is a free irrevocable gift from,of, Omniscient sovereign God.
God who knew us before the womb, God from whence we get our soul, God who knows the number of hairs on our head, and God who said we plan our way but God sets our steps.

God chose us. And no one can take us from him, and of those God chose through Christ,(no one comes to the Father but through me), God tells us he will lose none!

I believe the doctrine of insecurity is blasphemy of the highest order. Because it encapsulates in its expression the Gospel message of eternal life and states in its own wording, that message is not to be believed.

Amazingly, the atmosphere of the doctrine of insecurity is one that rescinds God's sovereignty and imparts the falsehood of man being able to choose to overcome the will and plans of God. And succeed.
To ground that falsity, its sponsors must convince themselves what God said and accomplished on the cross was false and amenable.

And that is why such false doctrinaire of insecurity proponents example the reason Jesus/God said he teaches in parables.
Matthew 13. Mark 4.

Salvation is only to the Few Jesus mentioned who entered the narrow gate. He said the rest walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed. Jesus clearly shows at Matt 7:22-23, that those do not have God, yet they thought they did. Were told they did. The problem was--they worked iniquity= a practice of a sin.

 

[Keiw]

God doesn't know.
I pray you never share the whole of your teachings on this site .

God didnt know 6000 years ago who would be repentent today. He would not say that he desires all to repentence. 2Peter 3:9 is clear on that matter. It would be a deception if he already knew who would repent. The door was opened to all by Jesus sacrafice, But they must meet certain requirements and any can, but unfortunately Few will. So its your teaching that is erred.

 

[quietthinker]

What is Predetermined?
For God so loved the World he gave his only begotten Son.

Maybe we want it to be a complex academic exercise so our ego is stroked as we engage but frankly, it is God's emotional involvement with humanity on a level which leaves those who see it gob smacked.

 

[Oceanprayers]

God didnt know 6000 years ago who would be repentent today. He would not say that he desires all to repentence. 2Peter 3:9 is clear on that matter. It would be a deception if he already knew who would repent. The door was opened to all by Jesus sacrafice, But they must meet certain requirements and any can, but unfortunately Few will. So its your teaching that is erred.

You show yourself not committed to rightly dividing the word.
And it is not possible in my view to explain what God's word does not itself impart to you.

 

[Oceanprayers]

Salvation is only to the Few Jesus mentioned who entered the narrow gate. He said the rest walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed. Jesus clearly shows at Matt 7:22-23, that those do not have God, yet they thought they did. Were told they did. The problem was--they worked iniquity= a practice of a sin.

I know the passage.