Don't Let The Times Trouble You

[marks]

That dog won't hunt, because all one need do is READ and HEED the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture by Jesus Himself to KNOW that His coming and gathering of His saints is AFTER... the tribulation like He said.

Thus you arguing with Lord Jesus, not with me. He is Who said it, not me. I am only teaching His Word AS WRITTEN. Sorry you don't like it, but that is your problem, not mine. So man up and quit trying to project your fault for not staying in His Word onto someone else.

So, the thing is, there are way too many passages of Scripture that don't really allow for the church to be a part of the elect that are gathered in Matthew 24.

So if you want to compare notes on that, great, that's what I'm here for, but if you want to talk about me, I'm not so interested. No worries, it's up to you what you want to do.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

At the end of the day, here, the matter comes down to, "You have the wrong doctrine, so it set's you up to be deceived", and anyone can say that to just anyone, it's not hard to do, but to me, it has no real significance in a discussion of whether this is a correct doctrine or not.

If you want to discuss to strength and weakness of the view, great, but if you want to discuss the strength and weakness of the man, that's a different topic.

Much love!

NOPE, I will discuss the weakness of the INDIVIDUAL BELIEF of those who think they are going to be raptured prior to the great tribulation, because that is how... those are deceived. And they get that idea from men's doctrines, not from God's written Word. So that then points directly to the following warnings that Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave the Church regarding the deceptions of the latter days...

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
KJV

Rom 16:17-18
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
KJV

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV

1 Tim 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

2 Peter 2:1-2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
KJV

 

[marks]

NOPE, I will discuss the weakness of the INDIVIDUAL BELIEF of those

OK. Not interested, but thanks for the discussion!

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

I suggest you re-think what you're saying. What Lord Jesus suffered on His cross was not... the "great tribulation" He taught His Church via His disciples while upon the Mount of Olives. To think so is kind of way... out... there in fantasy land. I can't even speculate how you could come up with such an idea.

Yes, I see that you have not imagined that no future tribulation could ever trump all tribulation, which Christ bore on the cross.

Tell me then-- What tribulation could possibly beat that (all) tribulation?

 

[Davy]

So, the thing is, there are way too many passages of Scripture that don't really allow for the church to be a part of the elect that are gathered in Matthew 24.

Do you really think... that I'm not aware that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors try to teach you all the lie that Christ's Olivet discourse is not for His Church, but for Jews?

From Lord Jesus is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church to Christ at His coming! If you don't understand that fact, then it actually means you don't really understand the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter. This is why what Jesus taught recorded in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 directly parallels what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[Davy]

OK. Not interested, but thanks for the discussion!

Much love!

That's too bad, because I always... do that in connection with God's written Word. You might have learned something.

 

[Davy]

Yes, I see that you have not imagined that no future tribulation could ever trump all tribulation, which Christ bore on the cross.

Tell me then-- What tribulation could possibly beat that (all) tribulation?

Sorry Scott, I'm not the one here imagining things.

My suggestion is that you get yourself back into God's written Word and heed it as written, and quit trying to speculate on everything written. There are only certain times when speculation can help, and only then once the literal Scripture meaning has been well understood.

Jesus defined the coming "great tribulation" to be at the end... of this world. Daniel 12:1 did also. Jesus while upon the Mount of Olives per Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 was giving the Signs of the 'end' leading up to His future return, which are the Signs of His Book of Revelation.

Those Signs were NOT for the time of His Apostles. They are for the generation that will 'see' His coming, which still has not come to pass in our day.

That is why I say that trying to define that "great tribulation" OUTSIDE of Bible Scripture is a work of NOT STAYING in The Word of God as written.

 

[ScottA]

That idea of what the "abomination of desolation" is completely... leaves the written Word of God, specifically the Book of Daniel where Lord Jesus was quoting it from. The Daniel 11 chapter particularly gives us what the "abomination of desolation" event in Jerusalem is about. It's about the placing of an IDOL abomination inside a 'standing' Jewish temple in Jerusalem. Antiochus Epiphanes even served as a past history blueprint for it when he took Jerusalem in 165 B.C., went inside the 2nd temple and sacrificed swine on the altar, spread its broth around inside the temple, and then placed an idol abomination on an altar inside to Zeus, and demanded all to bow in worship to it.

No...you are speaking of the wrong Temple.

The abomination that makes desolation is about what takes "away the daily sacrifice"-- which was the cross.

 

[Davy]

No...you are speaking of the wrong Temple.

The abomination that makes desolation is about what takes "away the daily sacrifice"-- which was the cross.

Once again, no... I am not speaking of the wrong temple regarding the "abomination of desolation" (AOD) event written in the Book of Daniel.

Sorry, but the Daniel prophecy about the AOD did not change... temples. The Daniel prophecy is STILL about Jerusalem and Daniel's people, the Jews (Daniel 9:24-27). And for today, that just happens to mean the orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem.

The 2 Thessalonians 2:4 "temple of God" Apostle Paul pointed to is NOT the spiritual temple involving Christ's Church. That idea is a FALSE teaching, and here is why...

Eph 2:18-22
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Since Lord Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple, and His Apostles and prophets make up the original foundation, then CAN that ever be CORRUPTED BY ANYONE??

NO, of course not.

If a believer on Christ falls away from the Faith, they are simply 'cut off' from the spiritual temple in Christ Jesus. Furthermore, that spiritual temple is made up of The Spirit, not land masses and material structures. Thus the spiritual temple can NEVER be corrupted, period. If it could, then it would mean Jesus Christ Himself could be corrupted!

Those who don't know to think for themselves and just latch onto some smooth-talking preacher don't realize that a false doctrine from the devil will ALWAYS miss the mark when compared with the written Bible Scripture. This is why those false prophets teach how to leave... the written Scriptures, so they can make you think God's Word says something it does not.

 

[marks]

Do you really think... that I'm not aware that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors try to teach you all the lie that Christ's Olivet discourse is not for His Church, but for Jews?

It's for everyone, but it's not about everyone.

And who are the rapture doctors? You're just talking to me here, a guy with a Bible.

From Lord Jesus is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church to Christ at His coming! If you don't understand that fact, then it actually means you don't really understand the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter. This is why what Jesus taught recorded in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 directly parallels what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.

These little asides are meaningless to me. "If you don't agree with me . . . you just don't understand it."

No . . . I have a different understanding than yours.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

It's for everyone, but it's not about everyone.

Either Christ's Olivet discourse is for His Church, or it is not. You cannot do that double-speak and be taken seriously.

It is for Christ's Church, especially His believers at the end of this world, because that... is the timing He was pointing to.

So the Pre-trib Rapture doctors (i.e., claimed scholars in the Pre-trib Rapture seminaries), treating Christ's Olivet discourse like it is not for Christ's Church, is actually a huge joke upon those willy-nilly enough to buy into it. As I've said in other posts, it is easy to spot doctrine from the devil in men's doctrines simply because it will not measure up with God's written Word. How so in this case you might wonder?

IF... Christ's Olivet discourse He gave while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples is NOT for us, His Church, then those false prophets could also pick and choose all kinds of written Scripture directly by Lord Jesus in The Gospels, and say those Scripture aren't written for His Church either! And you know what, that is EXACTLY what some false prophets do that claim only Apostle Paul's Epistles are meant for and ABOUT Christ's Church.

But Christ's faithful Church well KNOW His Olivet discourse is for His Church, all the way up to His future return, SIMPLY because those Signs He gave parallel the Signs He gave in His Book of Revelation!

And who is Christ's Book of Revelation for? For CHRIST'S CHURCH, especially at the 'end' of this world. And it does not matter what Dispensationalists teach against that, for Apostle Paul also spoke of events about the end of this world related directly to Christ's Book of Revelation.

What a mess those false prophets have duped many brethren with, and it is mostly done in order to shore up their false Pre-trib Rapture theory!

 

[ScottA]

NOPE, the "man of sin" has NOT been revealed yet today.

Your imagination has the best of you. Try to keep and open mind to the hard sayings of God and follow along:

• Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

• And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

• However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15:46

• “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” Revelation 1:11

...It is that natural man of sin and flesh who died on the cross, once for all. In Christ are "the dead in Christ" (the First), and also "the living in Christ" (the Last), for which Christ declared-- "But many who are first will be last, and the last first." indicating that those born [again] of the spirit of God would be first, though they came naturally last.

All in that one natural man of sin: Adam. And it is that man of sin standing in the holy place of Christ on the cross, that is the abomination of desolation--putting an End to daily sacrifices.

And now you have no excuse.

 

[marks]

Either Christ's Olivet discourse is for His Church, or it is not. You cannot do that double-speak and be taken seriously.

Let's stop the rhetoric, OK?

It's for everyone, but not about everyone. It's not about my mother, who died a number of years ago. It's about the people who will be there alive at that time. And that's not double speak.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Your imagination has the best of you.

That is truly funny, based on the fantasies outside God's Word you've been saying.

Try to keep and open mind to the hard sayings of God and follow along:

I am not concerned, because I know you don't really have a clue of what is written in God's Word. What I haven't determined yet is whether or not you even care what is actually written.

• Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

• And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

• However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15:46

• “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” Revelation 1:11

...It is that natural man of sin and flesh who died on the cross, once for all. In Christ are "the dead in Christ" (the First), and also "the living in Christ" (the Last), for which Christ clarified-- "But many who are first will be last, and the last first." indicating that those born [again] of the spirit of God would be first, though they came naturally last.

All in that one natural man of sin: Adam. And it is that man of sin standing in the holy place of Christ, who bore the sins of all on the cross, that is the abomination of desolation--putting an End to daily sacrifices.

And now you have no excuse.

Your are so funny, the topic is about the Signs of the end of this world that Lord Jesus gave, and the time He showed called "great tribulation", and you INSTEAD start talking about His 1st coming and death and resurrection, and the remission of sins, etc.?

It is impossible to logically converse with you, your mind is simply out in left field somewhere.

And by the way, I am a Protestant Christian, and have been baptized in Christ Jesus. So I well understand what The Gospel of Jesus Christ is, and I can TEACH it too, even from Old Testament Books!

So you push The Gospel at me again, as if I'm not a Christian, and I will be forced to report you!

 

[marks]

is actually a huge joke upon those willy-nilly enough to buy into it.

This is both expressive and helpful!

 

[Davy]

Let's stop the rhetoric, OK?

It's for everyone, but not about everyone. It's not about my mother, who died a number of years ago. It's about the people who will be there alive at that time. And that's not double speak.

Much love!

I'm not pushing rhetoric. I am being serious. If you don't care to be serious with God's written Word with me, then what is it you're trying to prove?

And I did NOT say ANYTHING about your mother!!!!

So why are you 'trying' to push that LIE?

Your double-speak I was pointing to in my post, IF YOU HAD READ IT, BUT YOU SHOW YOU DID NOT, is about your claim that Christ's Olivet discourse is 'for... everyone, but not about... everyone.'

I know why you said that, because that is what the Pre-trib Rapture preachers/doctors teach you believe. They follow that lie up with something like, 'because you are not going to be here, you'll be raptured out before that tribulation'.

 

[Davy]

This is both expressive and helpful!

And yet it is so... true.

They try to can Jesus' Olivet discourse which He specifically gave for His Church all the way to the end, because they want you to believe their LIE that you'll be raptured prior to those Signs, thus it doesn't involve the Church. That is the LIE they teach. HOW DO I KNOW? Because of this...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Let's talk about those above Scriptures instead of you trying to steer around them.

 

[Davy]

For those brethren that are serious about God's written Word:

Don't be concerned with these that come here on this thread pushing the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in attempt to debunk all the Scripture evidence I have given about the Signs involving Christ's Church for the end of this world, and especially warnings about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem, to sit in a rebuilt Jewish temple, and play Christ.

That idea in God's Word about the coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem and be worshiped by deceived Jews even Jewish Christians don't like. That's not my fault, God's written Word is HIS Word, not mine. So if they don't like those Biblical facts as written, then they need to take it up with HIM and His Son. Jesus already warned the unbelieving Jews plenty, so THEY have no excuse!

Likewise, those gullible enough to allow false prophets to deceive them about the Signs of the end Jesus gave His Church, and even claim Jesus wasn't giving that for His Church, also are without excuse, and deserve to be deceived for NOT listening to God in His written Word. I have already challenged those with what Jesus showed emphatically when His coming is, and gathering of His Church, for AFTER the tribulation like He said, and they will NOT address it, but just cast those Scriptures to the wayside as if He never said them. So those... are without excuse that bypass those Scriptures.

 

[ScottA]

Sorry Scott, I'm not the one here imagining things.

My suggestion is that you get yourself back into God's written Word and heed it as written, and quit trying to speculate on everything written. There are only certain times when speculation can help, and only then once the literal Scripture meaning has been well understood.

...That is why I say that trying to define that "great tribulation" OUTSIDE of Bible Scripture is a work of NOT STAYING in The Word of God as written.

No thank you...but I already have the counsel of God and His word.

Jesus defined the coming "great tribulation" to be at the end... of this world. Daniel 12:1 did also. Jesus while upon the Mount of Olives per Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 was giving the Signs of the 'end' leading up to His future return, which are the Signs of His Book of Revelation.

You say "Jesus defined the coming "great tribulation" to be at the end..." --But who is the End?

I have told you correctly--that End is Christ.

Those Signs were NOT for the time of His Apostles. They are for the generation that will 'see' His coming, which still has not come to pass in our day.

And therefore, I will ask you another question: Who 'sees' His coming?

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
​

But this is not what you have described, or even imagined.

 

[Davy]

No thank you...but I already have the counsel of God and His word.

You say "Jesus defined the coming "great tribulation" to be at the end..." --But who is the End?

I have told you correctly--that End is Christ.
And therefore, I will ask you another question: Who 'sees' His coming?

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
​

But this is not what you have described, or even imagined.

Welcome to my Ignore List. Your thinking is way... too incoherent for me to have a logical discussion with you.