Don't Let The Times Trouble You

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ScottA

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Matthew 24 ends with:

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
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Davy

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What do we find those on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory doing today with getting ready for Christ's coming? Are they WATCHING? No! Why?

Because they do NOT KNOW WHAT TO BE WATCHING!

Their preachers tell them to just "be ready!", because no man know the day our hour of Christ's coming to rapture us!

But wait a minute, didn't Lord Jesus command us to WATCH?!

Matt 24:42-43
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

KJV

WATCH WHAT though???

Well, what was He giving us in those previous Matthew 24:1-42 verses??? Duh! not hard to figure out! He was giving us the SIGNS of the END leading up to His coming and our gathering to Him! (let the anvils fall now.)

Are those on man's pre-trib rapture theory watching those SIGNS?? NO! They are not! They even think Christ's coming can be 'at any moment', which is why that is actually another name for their pre-trib rapture theory, the Any Moment doctrine.

So WHY would Jesus command us to WATCH?

It's because He is sending a false-Messiah FIRST, that will work SUPERNATURAL SIGNS AND WONDERS to deceive the world with. Jesus wants us to note the Signs He gave which INCLUDE that specific false-Messiah warning. And He even showed that false one's working of miracles would be so... powerful, that IF possible, it could deceive even His very elect!

That... is why Lord Jesus gave us those SIGNS to be WATCHING; it's so we would NOT be deceived by that coming false-Messiah, and instead WAIT ON HIM TO COME.

Now anyone who thinks that's what He meant by the wicked who believe He delays His coming, then they just show how much already in deception they are!
 

ScottA

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In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:11-14
The timing: Past tense.
 

quietthinker

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That dog won't hunt, because all one need do is READ and HEED the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture by Jesus Himself to KNOW that His coming and gathering of His saints is AFTER... the tribulation like He said.

Thus you arguing with Lord Jesus, not with me. He is Who said it, not me. I am only teaching His Word AS WRITTEN. Sorry you don't like it, but that is your problem, not mine. So man up and quit trying to project your fault for not staying in His Word onto someone else.
You are in error Davy. Marks is not projecting anything onto you. He is analysing and asking questions which are valid.
Your choice to hear it otherwise is your shortcoming!
 
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Timtofly

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WHAT????

There is NO SCRIPTURE evidence of what you said with, "...after Jesus sits on His throne, the nations would be gathered to be judged,...".

The gathering of the nations to battle happens on the 'day' of Christ's RETURN, on the 7th Vial, 7th Trumpet, and 6th Seal.

This is why on the 6th Vial Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief" (per Revelation 16:15). And then on the 7th Vial is the battle of ARMAGEDDON, the gathering of the nations around Jerusalem for the day of His coming, per Zechariah 14.

There is NO Scripture evidence for His coming to gather any of His Church prior to that day. You've heard that lie so long and believed it so long, you forgot that you can find NO Scripture to support it.
Perhaps you miss too much Scripture in your narrow view on the Second Coming....
 

Timtofly

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Matthew 24
The Parable of the Fig Tree

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. Isaiah 11:1

Gee...what generation could Jesus the Branch of Jesse be talking about??
The one seeing Jesus as Prince sitting on His throne in His Temple in His Jerusalem, physically on earth. Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"
 

Timtofly

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Do you realize that you just stated that Jesus did not take on all the tribulations attributed to sin upon Himself?

That was my question: What could be greater than "all?"
No I didn't. Jesus still suffered for all. No one makes nor changes what the Atonement covered.

Ever heard of double fulfillment? The Atonement happened before creation for all equally. Nothing that has happened since creation has added nor taken away from that Atonement on the Cross.

Yet many will still suffer the full wrath of God in their disobedience. Many living on earth will be living not in the Lamb's book of life, and past the day of redemption where the Holy Spirit was at work.

Davy thinks that happens before the Second Coming. He is wrong in the timing of the Second Coming. The 7th Seal is opened after Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem. The church already removed and glorified in Paradise. Christ is already on earth gathering the firstfruits of the 1,000 year reign. The reign that starts when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding and the 70th week of Daniel 9 is completed. Jesus as Messiah the Prince is the 70th week. His earthly ministry covers that 7 year period. 3.5 years as Messiah, and at the Second Coming the remainder of that 70th week as Prince.
 

GEN2REV

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The time of "great tribulation" will be different; all those things, wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences, will have stopped. That is when the false-Christ is to come and play God in Jerusalem just prior to Jesus' coming. He will be the great fixer, and thus the whole world will believe he is God having come.
This does not line up with scripture.

Jesus told us in Matthew that He would return IMMEDIATELY after the Tribulations. Matthew 24:29

And the immediate prelude to His coming includes the sun being darkened, the moon going dark, stars falling from heaven, etc. ... neither of which allow for any time of peace after the Tribulation period before He comes.
 

ScottA

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The one seeing Jesus as Prince sitting on His throne in His Temple in His Jerusalem, physically on earth. Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"
"His Jerusalem" is not on this "earth", but is the new Jerusalem on the new earth.
 

ScottA

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No I didn't. Jesus still suffered for all. No one makes nor changes what the Atonement covered.

Ever heard of double fulfillment? The Atonement happened before creation for all equally. Nothing that has happened since creation has added nor taken away from that Atonement on the Cross.

Yet many will still suffer the full wrath of God in their disobedience. Many living on earth will be living not in the Lamb's book of life, and past the day of redemption where the Holy Spirit was at work.

Davy thinks that happens before the Second Coming. He is wrong in the timing of the Second Coming. The 7th Seal is opened after Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem. The church already removed and glorified in Paradise. Christ is already on earth gathering the firstfruits of the 1,000 year reign. The reign that starts when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding and the 70th week of Daniel 9 is completed. Jesus as Messiah the Prince is the 70th week. His earthly ministry covers that 7 year period. 3.5 years as Messiah, and at the Second Coming the remainder of that 70th week as Prince.
You did indeed indicate that there is more tribulation greater than that which has already been laid upon Christ, as if that was not the greatest of tribulations. If that is not what you meant, please clarify.

As for a "double fulfillment", it is a good analogy, but you have a few things wrong:
  • It is not double, but simultaneous. What makes it appear to be double is the will of God compared with the I am of God...but they are the same. His will is written, and therefore appears to be on a different timeline, but it is not, only the revelation of His will appears to be so. Yes, therefore nothing can be added or taken away.
  • That day of happenings was the day of Pentecost, after the forty days of Jacobs burial. Which is to say, after Jesus, the Last of those who were first, was buried with the dead. Then He came "quickly" just as He said...but "each in his own order" as it was revealed to Paul and to us.
  • As for the reign of Christ on this earth, yes, He reigns since then, and even now--as He said, "I have overcome the world" and "all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Me." Past tense. But the thousand years is not a fixed time on earth, but a fixed time with God, and therefore the term "thousand" here was only given in place of what no man knows. Thus, it simply means "until the end." But again, "each in his own order."
  • As for the 7 year period, this does not refer to years, but times: "a time, times, and the dividing of time."..."They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses." Daniel 4:25 These are all the days of men, and the seven days of men, divided. The only gap, is that half an hour of silence in heaven.
 
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Timtofly

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"His Jerusalem" is not on this "earth", but is the new Jerusalem on the new earth.
It was His Jerusalem the 3.5 years He had 12 disciples during the first century, leading up to the Cross.

The church is that heavenly Paradise. It is called Paradise now. It will not be the New Jerusalem until after current reality passes away. In the New Earth, even the current Jerusalem will not exist. The New Jerusalem from heaven will come down to earth.

The Second Coming is still 1,000 years before the NHNE, and current Jerusalem is still the Jerusalem of Messiah the Prince.
 

ScottA

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It was His Jerusalem the 3.5 years He had 12 disciples during the first century, leading up to the Cross.

The church is that heavenly Paradise. It is called Paradise now. It will not be the New Jerusalem until after current reality passes away. In the New Earth, even the current Jerusalem will not exist. The New Jerusalem from heaven will come down to earth.

The Second Coming is still 1,000 years before the NHNE, and current Jerusalem is still the Jerusalem of Messiah the Prince.
No...but that Jerusalem had become "a den of thieves."

As for the church...the church is made up of both the bride and the bride to be, some of whom will not enter into the marriage. That "heavenly Paradise" is reserved, not for the whole church in the world, but for the bride alone. Which makes this "current reality" different for each.

The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth, yes...but not exactly to an old earth, nor that old Jerusalem, but to a new earth--"all things have been made new."

As for the thousand years...this is not a literary term and not to be counted as such, but a heavenly term. Which is rather to say: in the fullness of time.
 

Timtofly

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You did indeed indicate that there is more tribulation greater than that which has already been laid upon Christ, as if that was not the greatest of tribulations. If that is not what you meant, please clarify.

No, I did not. The coming tribulation is not for Christ, but humankind. The Cross was for God, and no human suffered on the Cross for their own judgment.

So those on the earth after the Second Coming, will indeed face the wrath of God, because they will bear the same brunt of that wrath, even as God Himself did on the Cross.

Since no human except Jesus experienced the Cross in 30AD, it is still the greatest tribulation ever. Only Jesus will experience it twice, except this time as the one handing out the judgment.

BTW this tribulation is not for the dead currently in sheol. Only those physically alive are going to experience this unprecedented tribulation. The church will not be present either. The church is not going to be judged twice for the judgment of the Cross. You are correct that the judgement on the Cross was supposed to be the greatest tribulation, obviously. That does not negate the wrath of God on those no longer redeemed, still alive on earth.

As for a "double fulfillment", it is a good analogy, but you have a few things wrong:
  • It is not double, but simultaneous. What makes it appear to be double is the will of God compared with the I am of God...but they are the same. His will is written, and therefore appears to be on a different timeline, but it is not, only the revelation of His will appears to be so. Yes, therefore nothing can be added or taken away.

The Cross and Second Coming are not simultaneous events.

  • That day of happenings was the day of Pentecost, after the forty days of Jacobs burial. Which is to say, after Jesus, the Last of those who were first, was buried with the dead. Then He came "quickly" just as He said...but "each in his own order" as it was revealed to Paul and to us.

All of the OT was removed from death, Abraham's bosom in sheol, and physically ascended to Paradise in 30AD. No exceptions and no other resurrection will be necessary. The Cross was that last day resurrection for the OT. They are now safe in Paradise waiting for the Second Coming and being glorified. Paul covered that in, "Christ the firstfruits". The firstfruits were the whole of Abraham's bosom who were the firstfruits of Paradise. The only one there first was the thief on the Cross. He arrived that day. The rest entered Paradise Sunday after Jesus talked to Mary. Jesus explained He was about to ascend, but would be back later that afternoon.

Paul did not cover the ongoing phenomenon of his own physical passing and all who have already arrived. He did say all the dead rise first and have been doing so since the Cross. At no point would any living procede any who have already physically died.

  • As for the reign of Christ on this earth, yes, He reigns since then, and even now--as He said, "I have overcome the world" and "all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Me." Past tense. But the thousand years is not a fixed time on earth, but a fixed time with God, and therefore the term "thousand" here was only given in place of what no man knows. Thus, it simply means "until the end." But again, "each in his own order."

No, at the Second Coming the next group is all those alive at the Second Coming who are redeemed. There is still a third group 1,000 years later. Paul says the kingdom is not handed back at the Second Coming. There is the gathering of the church on earth at the Second Coming, full stop. Then comes the end. The end is not the Second Coming. The end is 1,000 years later.

  • As for the 7 year period, this does not refer to years, but times: "a time, times, and the dividing of time."..."They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses." Daniel 4:25 These are all the days of men, and the seven days of men, divided. The only gap, is that half an hour of silence in heaven.

There is no 7 year period, period. Jesus is/was the 70th week. Yes there was a 3.5 year time leading up to the Cross, then Messiah was cut off.

There is not a future 3.5 years to complete the Prince part. The shorter those 3.5 years become, the more of Adam's flesh accepts the Atonement and are saved. There could be 3 years of flesh saved and only 6 months of the greatest tribulation ever. But this time of unprecedented trouble does not start until after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal, and then after the 7th Seal, and then half an hour later.
 

Timtofly

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No...but that Jerusalem had become "a den of thieves."

As for the church...the church is made up of both the bride and the bride to be, some of whom will not enter into the marriage. That "heavenly Paradise" is reserved, not for the whole church in the world, but for the bride alone. Which makes this "current reality" different for each.

The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth, yes...but not exactly to an old earth, nor that old Jerusalem, but to a new earth--"all things have been made new."

As for the thousand years...this is not a literary term and not to be counted as such, but a heavenly term. Which is rather to say: in the fullness of time.
Not so. Paul listed 3 gatherings.

The Cross.

The Second Coming.

The handing back of the kingdom.

Paul did not give us a time frame. History and John did.

Between the Cross and the Second Coming has been 1992 years, and counting.

The time between the Second Coming and handing back the kingdom will be 1,000 years. To refute the 1,000 years as literal is also to refute the last 1992 years as literally happened. Try to convince any one the Cross was just last week, instead of 1992 years ago.
 

ScottA

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No, I did not. The coming tribulation is not for Christ, but humankind. The Cross was for God, and no human suffered on the Cross for their own judgment.

So those on the earth after the Second Coming, will indeed face the wrath of God, because they will bear the same brunt of that wrath, even as God Himself did on the Cross.

Since no human except Jesus experienced the Cross in 30AD, it is still the greatest tribulation ever. Only Jesus will experience it twice, except this time as the one handing out the judgment.

BTW this tribulation is not for the dead currently in sheol. Only those physically alive are going to experience this unprecedented tribulation. The church will not be present either. The church is not going to be judged twice for the judgment of the Cross. You are correct that the judgement on the Cross was supposed to be the greatest tribulation, obviously. That does not negate the wrath of God on those no longer redeemed, still alive on earth.

The Cross and Second Coming are not simultaneous events.

All of the OT was removed from death, Abraham's bosom in sheol, and physically ascended to Paradise in 30AD. No exceptions and no other resurrection will be necessary. The Cross was that last day resurrection for the OT. They are now safe in Paradise waiting for the Second Coming and being glorified. Paul covered that in, "Christ the firstfruits". The firstfruits were the whole of Abraham's bosom who were the firstfruits of Paradise. The only one there first was the thief on the Cross. He arrived that day. The rest entered Paradise Sunday after Jesus talked to Mary. Jesus explained He was about to ascend, but would be back later that afternoon.

Paul did not cover the ongoing phenomenon of his own physical passing and all who have already arrived. He did say all the dead rise first and have been doing so since the Cross. At no point would any living procede any who have already physically died.

No, at the Second Coming the next group is all those alive at the Second Coming who are redeemed. There is still a third group 1,000 years later. Paul says the kingdom is not handed back at the Second Coming. There is the gathering of the church on earth at the Second Coming, full stop. Then comes the end. The end is not the Second Coming. The end is 1,000 years later.

There is no 7 year period, period. Jesus is/was the 70th week. Yes there was a 3.5 year time leading up to the Cross, then Messiah was cut off.

There is not a future 3.5 years to complete the Prince part. The shorter those 3.5 years become, the more of Adam's flesh accepts the Atonement and are saved. There could be 3 years of flesh saved and only 6 months of the greatest tribulation ever. But this time of unprecedented trouble does not start until after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal, and then after the 7th Seal, and then half an hour later.
That is not biblical. Some, but mostly not. Nor did you even hear me--you misunderstood.

I was not discussing it, nor was I theorizing, but telling you.

But you are in deep and well over your head. If you want to pick out 1 point, perhaps we can discuss it and begin again. Otherwise, your bringing chaos to the table is not working out for you. One point. Pick one.
 

Desire Of All Nations

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But that's just not so. If it turns out I'm wrong about pre-trib timing, the same Holy Spirit lives in me, and will enable me to endure whatever is in the world, or the flesh, or from the devil.

Much love!
Anyone with the Holy Spirit wouldn't be subscribing to Pre-Trib in the first place. Revelation says true Christians have the testimony of Jesus, which means they understand and agree with the prophecies He revealed. It is simply not logical that a person can truly be following Jesus and yet believe He is wrong when He says He is returning after the Tribulation.

That's not a valid argument.

"If this part is not about the church, that means someone can declare other parts are not about the church." It's non-sequitor. Each should be understood in their own right.

For instance, you are not building an ark, because you realize that portion of the Bible, while being written for you, is not about you. You learn from it, you come to know God, and how He interacts with humanity, but you know you don't need to build a giant boat.

You understand that the temple law is written for you, for your understanding and spiritual gain, but it's not about you, that is, you are not taking your animal sacrifices to the temple.

Matthew 19:11-12 KJV
11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Here, Jesus addresses His teaching to whom it is meant.

And this part,

Matthew 24:15-18 KJV
15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

It is about those who live in Judaea at that time. This is specifically to, and about, those people, in that location, at that time. We all learn from it, we all benefit from it, but we don't all live in Judaea.

Much love!
Your whole argument falls like a ton of bricks because the disciples explicitly asked for the signs of Jesus' return in Matt. 24:3. Did Jesus return at any point within the last 2 millennia? No. Was humanity pushed to the brink of extinction leading up to 70 A.D.? No. You're overlooking the obvious duality in this prophecy. Most biblical prophecies operate on a theme of prophetic duality, and the Olivet Prophecy is no different.

The fact that the disciples asked for signs of His return means that this prophecy was primarily recorded for this period of time and that the events leading up to 70 A.D. were only a forerunner of the real thing. The fact that every last one of the signs Jesus gave 100% parallels what is written in Revelation proves even more so that the events leading up to 70 A.D. were only a type of the Tribulation since Revelation is an end-time book. If you really had the Holy Spirit, you wouldn't be disagreeing with Jesus.
 

Davy

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You are in error Davy. Marks is not projecting anything onto you. He is analysing and asking questions which are valid.
Your choice to hear it otherwise is your shortcoming!

I'm not in error, because he said,

"Is this to say that you are confident you've got all correct understandings of Scripture, and no mistaken ideas? If not, then how are you safe from deception?"

------------------------------------------

That dog won't hunt, because the Scripture is so SIMPLE a first grader can understand it, and the specific Scripture I pointed to was this...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


That's the last Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse and it is the last Sign He gave in His Book of Revelation through John.

So just why... cannot I NOT be sure of what Jesus said there???

Looks to me that those who DOUBT what He said there are the ones Marks suggested cannot be sure if they understand God's Word or not!
 

Davy

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Perhaps you miss too much Scripture in your narrow view on the Second Coming....

Perhaps you think you can fool those who actually do... study their Bible as written, because you are so deceived and deceive others along with yourself.