"JUSTIFICATION"

[TahitiRun]

Yes it was. It was the reason why Abraham was blessed, because of his righteousness:

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That's the performance of the oath (or "promise") made to Abraham, not the oath, per se. Read it, it's right there in the text:

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

It's the same thing with justification that Paul explained in Rom 4:5. The objective fact of our justification being declarative and God imputing (performing) that declaration (the "promise") to us subjectively by/through our faith therein.

 

[Daniel L.]

That's the performance of the oath (or "promise") made to Abraham, not the oath

When the promise was made to Abraham, it carried with it the performance too, because the promise was made by Him, and His Word is eternally true, and there is absolutely no possibility His promise would not be performed. You can't separate the performance from the promise, without emptying His promise, if you do, you say: His Word was not yet true, and His promise was not yet performed. So when the promise was made to Abraham it was already performed, since He is not bound to time.

It's the same thing with justification that Paul explained in Rom 4:5.

No, because Abraham worked righteousness and can't be compared to "him that worked not", and because Abraham was justified by the Mighty One of Israel, and not by the "one who justifies the ungodly".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Abraham, Lot, Job, Enoch, from righteous Abel to Zacharias, John the Baptist and their parents... were all righteous before the LORD.

...Because of their faith, not because of an inherent ability to be righteous. Read Hebrews 11.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So what do you mean "nobody can do this"? That is why all that comes after err is err still, because you have built on sand.
I tell you, I believe you can do it:

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Key: "with God".
But I said no man can be righteous "in and of themselves"... ↓↓↓

...nobody can do this, be righteous in and of themselves...

The ONLY way to become righteous in God's sight and, thus, receive a declaration of righteousness is to have your unrighteousness removed through the grace of forgiveness. That is the ONLY way anyone will ever be righteous in God's sight. No amount of righteous work can ever do that.

 

[TahitiRun]

When the promise was made to Abraham, it carried with it the performance too, because the promise was made by Him, and His Word is eternally true, and there is absolutely no possibility His promise would not be performed. You can't separate the performance from the promise, without emptying His promise, if you do, you say: His Word was not yet true, and His promise was not yet performed. So when the promise was made to Abraham it was already performed, since He is not bound to time.



No, because Abraham worked righteousness and can't be compared to "him that worked not", and because Abraham was justified by the Mighty One of Israel, and not by the "one who justifies the ungodly".

I don't think you're grasping Paul's arguments in Rom. chapter 4, though. God calls the things that be not as though they were (Rom 4:17), and that is what Abraham believed. He saw by faith what he was unable to see by sight. Abraham believed the declarative promise of God, without having to see any further evidence or performance thereof.

And so it is with Rom 4:5. We believe in "Him who declares righteous the ungodly". A faith that needs no further evidence other than what God declared.

 

[TahitiRun]

Free Gift ?

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!



Not the Word, no.
Jesus does the Will of the Father and His Father said:

Exodus 23:7 [..] thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

-Jesus is not an abomination:

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

Jesus died for the ungodly (Rom 5:6). And the very reason He can declare the ungodly to be justified (Rom 4:5). Jesus did not justify the ungodly for gifts, but rather to demonstrate God's love (Rom 5:8).

Do you really not know this?

 

[JesusFan1]

First let me show you a verse from Brenton's Septuagint Translation:
Exodus 23:7 Thou shalt abstain from every unjust thing: thou shalt not slay the innocent and just, and thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

In this translation it is a commandment, to not justify the wicked. And "for gifts" is a reference to bribery. As we should not accept "free gifts" they are bribery. 8"Do not accept bribe[...]". At least in this context of justification.

In NLT it reads: "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent." The "I" is refering to the God of Israel, and in other translations it says He will not justify the wicked.

And this "wicked" is anyone who breaks God's Law: sinners, guilty, ungodly are all synonyms commonly used, and can be found in Strong's. These are the people God won't justify.
Woe to them:
Isaiah 5:22 Woe to the strong ones of you that drink wine, and the mighty ones that mingle strong drink:
23who justify the ungodly for rewards, and take away the righteousness of the righteous.

Here we see that, it is the sinners that justify the ungodly, not God, and these sinners justify the ungodly "for rewards" or for a bribe.

We also have this verse from NASB:
Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

It is evident the true God of Israel will not justify the sinner, neither the wicked, nor the ungodly. Not only that, but anyone who does, is probably a sinner who did it for a reward, and are an abomination to the LORD.

And now we have this verse, I took from Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

Excuse me, what? "The One who justifies sinners"? Who would that be?
Surely it isn't the God of Israel, who said He will not justify sinners, and He cannot contradict Himself.
Keep in mind this is to "the one who does not labor" meaning the sinners who do not keep the works of the Law, like the commandments. To them it is "credited" righteousness, almost like a "free gift", reminds me of bribery. And all they have to do is believe on "the one who justifies sinners".

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

Yahweh the Father, thru the death of the Lord Jesus

 

[TahitiRun]

There is no such concept in the Bible.

Of course there is. And the example that Paul puts forth concerning Abraham was not only written for Abraham's sake but also for ours (Rom 4:23-24).

 

[Daniel L.]

Because of their faith, not because of an inherent ability to be righteous.

Their True Faith, that is. For what is faith without righteousness? So, they must have had the ability to work righteousness or else they would have dead faith, and wouldn't have been justified. Because The Father is most Just and won't justify the unrighteous as righteous, that would be unjust.

Key: "with God".

You already read about Him, all you have to do now is believe, with True Faith, because you can:

Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

 

[Daniel L.]

Yahweh the Father

Impossible without breaking Scripture:

The Father said: Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.

We believe in "Him who declares righteous the ungodly".

You believe in the unknown, since I have been asking and no one knows who he is. But I know what he isn't:

He is not the Mighty One of Israel:

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.

So, by deduction, is a false god, a blasphemer making himself God, an idol.
-Is also an abomination:

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

-He is a "mighty" drunkard, or sinner:

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

-And he seeks to pervert the ways of judgment:

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

So, you can tell whoever he is, he is a wicked deceiver: a ravening wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[TahitiRun]

Impossible without breaking Scripture:

The Father said: Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.



You believe in the unknown, since I have been asking and no one knows who he is.

I've referenced (using scripture) who He is that justifies the ungodly in post #116, and why He was able to justify the ungodly in post #126.

There is really not much else I can say regarding this matter. Either you're being purposely obtuse or you're dead to the spirit (ie: the natural man, 1Co 2:14). I happen to believe the latter.

The other thing you're doing (with the OT passages you've quoted) is that you're not making a distinction between the two elements of the soul. Those two elements being flesh (taken from the earth) and spirit (from the breath of God). You're conflating the two.

Jesus does not justify the soul (man) according to the flesh, but rather the spirit (1Ti 3:16). The soul (ie: man) is only considered wicked / ungodly / unrighteous according to the flesh, not the spirit that is created in the image of God. However, the soul bears the penalty of the sins committed by the flesh, due to the soul's jurisdiction thereof (Eze 18:4), and consequently the reason Christ redeems man (ie: the soul) according to the spirit, and not the flesh.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, they must have had the ability to work righteousness or else they would have dead faith, and wouldn't have been justified.

We know their faith justified them by the fact that they then did works commensurate with that faith. Works are not how you become righteous in God's sight. Works show that you have become righteous in God's sight through faith.

"I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18
​

Becoming righteous through faith without works (Romans 4:6) is not 'dead faith'. Dead faith is the faith that has no works to validate that faith as being genuine and able to save.

 

[Ezra]

The thing is: you can only be declared righteous if you are righteous indeed,

no we are declared righteous when we get saved in our sinful nature to be declared righteous you first have to be a sinner no longer a sinner.

your in bad shape if you question the free gift

 

[Daniel L.]

faith without works (Romans 4:6) is not 'dead faith'.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

If you say you are justified without works, you were justified by dead faith, and you pervert justice.
The only way for someone to be justified is if they have works, which make their faith true.

I've told you who He is that justifies the ungodly

Your anwer is invalid, because it breaks all the Scripture I have shown you already. It can neither be the Son nor the Father.

 

[TahitiRun]

Your anwer is invalid, because it breaks all the Scripture I have shown you already. It can neither be the Son nor the Father.

The scriptures you've shown are fine. It's your exegesis that is wrong.

 

[Daniel L.]

your exegesis that is wrong

Which part of "I will not justify the ungodly" is wrong exegesis ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you say you are justified without works, you were justified by dead faith

That's not the definition of dead faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Which part of "I will not justify the ungodly" is wrong exegesis ?

The person who receives God's forgiveness through faith in Jesus' blood is no longer among the ungodly.

 

[Daniel L.]

blood

No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood ? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.
The priests indeed receive such offering as reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against the law of Moses, but for sins agains the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

-Blood Sacrifice is leaven from the pharisees:

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

-Corruption of the covenant of Levi:

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

-Blood Sacrifice is not what our Father in Heaven wants:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

-Blood Sacrifice was not commanded by our Father:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

-Blood sacrifice is "of fools" and evil:

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood ? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.
The priests indeed receive such offering as reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against the law of Moses, but for sins agains the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

-Blood Sacrifice is leaven from the pharisees:

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

-Corruption of the covenant of Levi:

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

-Blood Sacrifice is not what our Father in Heaven wants:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

-Blood Sacrifice was not commanded by our Father:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

-Blood sacrifice is "of fools" and evil:

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Well, let's test your thesis against the rest of scripture:

“Go at once and select for yourselves a lamb for each family, and slaughter the Passover lamb. 22Take a cluster of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin, and brush the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe. None of you shall go out the door of his house until morning.23When the LORD passes through to strike down the Egyptians, He will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway; so He will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.24And you are to keep this command as a permanent statute for you and your descendants." Exodus 12:21-24 ​