"JUSTIFICATION"

[Daniel L.]

justified not by their works, but by the blood

How can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of Innocent Blood?
Nay, it will increase the condemnation.

GIFT

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

 

[Titus]

I taught James was NOT teaching meritorious works,

What are the works that did not justify Abraham in Romans 4:2-3 ?
Answer: The works that Paul also teaches about in Ephesians 2:8-9. MERITORIOUS WORKS!

post #82,

are the works that did Justify Abraham in James chapter 2?
Answer: Works of righteousness ie obedience to Gods commands!

post #82

Now you are claiming you did not bring up meriting salvation.
You did!

and James is saying Abraham was justified by works of "condign merit, that carries with it an obligation"

This is post #83

You did teach the opposite of what I taught.
Since you do not know the meaning of the words you are using.

Like condign: synonyms, competent, deserved, due, fair, just, justified, merited, right, rightful, warranted.
Or meritorious.
That is your mistake.

Just so you know, I didnt even know what meritous works were, I had to google it yesterday, and read from the catholics. You definitely brought this up, you deal with it.

This is post #95.

So you are in fact the double minded man, James 1:8

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways

You misrepresented what I taught, when you claimed I was teaching condign works with James.
You also referred to those condign works as merit.

Ah, this is a new one.
So, according to you:
Paul is saying Abraham wasn't justified by works of "Congruous merit that carries no obligation"
and James is saying Abraham was justified by works of "condign merit, that carries with it an obligation

post #83

You said I taught James was teaching meriting salvation.
I never taught this. I don't believe anyone works, merits salvation.
Works of righteousness which are not meritorious are the works we do when we obey Gods commandments. Acts 10:35.

 

[Daniel L.]

Works of righteousness which are not meritorious are the works we do when we obey Gods commandments.

Is not obedience to the commandments and obligation for justice? A work of "condign merit, that carries with it an obligation".

 

[Titus]

A Christian has been justified not by their works, but by the blood of Jesus and the death of Christ.

If you read your verse, you can see that Abraham has Righteousness.
He has it.
Why?
Because God gave it to him, because Abraham BELIEVED.

This is "the GIFT of Righteousness".
"not by WORKS, but according to God's MERCY, HE SAVED US".

Here : John 14:6

Here : All that call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved.

"faith is counted as righteousness".
The righteousness that COMES BY : Faith.
"Justification" BY Faith, without works.

Wrong, Abraham was not justified, made righteous by God because of mental assent.
He was justified, made righteous by God because His faith was an obedient faith.
Your faith and no obedience salvation clearly contradicts James 2:24, and Paul,

I have already showed,
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Paul taught faith without works profits not. That is Paul's real position on his teaching of the kind of faith that profits. Teaching Paul taught faith only, is putting words in Paul's mouth.

Justification: From God Or From Man ?
When you answer this question you will know if this new interpretation of James chapter 2 is scripturally accurate.

James teaches on Abraham of being justified by his works.
This is a key issue you may have not considered or overlooked with your position.

James talks specifically about one act of obedience Abraham did that justified him.
Do you know which work in Abraham's life it was that James referred to?

Heres the answer,
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
-22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works and works was faith made perfect?

James gave a specific act in Abraham's life, one act of obedience that Justified him.
The offering of his son Isaac.

Now, you teach James is teaching the evidence of true faith is other men will witness our true faith because they will observe our works.

Therefore you are saying James' justification or our faith put in to practice, justifies us before men, correct?
I don't want to misrepresent you. If this is not what you believe the justification James is teaching is. I apologize.

Ok, now back to my point about the old testament story of Abraham being justified by the obedient sacrifice of his son Isaac,

We must go back to tell the story, so we can observe the important details that will give us the evidence or lack of evidence to know if your interpretation is really what James is teaching.

Genesis 22:3
And Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

Ok, we have Abraham, Isaac, and two young men.
Now Abraham is going to go to sacrifice his son.

Genesis 22:3-5 ; 7-12
Then on the thrid day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off.
And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide here with the donkey; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you.
Note: Very important clue here. The two young men are told to stay here with the donkey. Abraham and his son leave them to go worship.
Now there are only two, Abraham and Isaac.

-7- And Isaac spake unto his father Abraham and said, My father : and he said, Here I am son.
And he said ,Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

-8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they both went together.

-9 And they came to the place which God told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

-10 And Abraham stretched forth His hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

-11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here I am I.

-12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from Me.

God later says in verse 16-17 that because he has done this work of obedience, God is going to bless Abraham greatly.

I encourage you strongly to read the entire chapter for yourself.

What did we learn?
We learned that the act that justified Abraham before God as James said in chapter 2:21.
Had only four witnesses,
God, His Angel's in heaven, Abraham and Isaac himself.

The two young men were not present to see the work Abraham performed that was commanded by God.

That leaves us with the most important question?
Who justified Abraham?
Could it have been men?
Could it have been angels?
Could it have been Isaac?
Could it have been God?

The only other "man" that observed Abraham's work was his son.
Heres why his son could not be the one who justified Abraham.

First, Isaac was completely clueless that His faither was performing an act of faith.
The fact alone excludes him from being the one who Justified his father.

For your interpretation to be Biblically accurate. Isaac would have must known that his father was acting out a direct commandment from God. Then he possible could have understood his fathers motives.

But this fails completely because Isaac was to young and ignorant of what was taking place.

What about the angels?
They are not men, therefore they must also be eliminated because your teaching is men justified men in James chapter 2.

That leaves us with only one possibility.
God. And this can only be the correct answer.

The absurdity would be Abraham himself. Which is obviously nonsense.

Now my last point on Justification.
Only God can justify men according to the scriptures,

Romans 5:9
Much more then, having been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He glorified.

Romans 4:2-3
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
James 2: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

With this sound argument of rightly dividing the word of God, I hope we can be of the same mind and judgement.

What are the works that did not justify Abraham in Romans 4:2-3 ?
Answer: The works that Paul also teaches about in Ephesians 2:8-9. MERITORIOUS WORKS!

What are the works that did Justify Abraham in James chapter 2?
Answer: Works of righteousness ie obedience to Gods commands!

Psalm 119:127
My tongue shall speak of Your word, For All Your commandments are righteousness.

Love you friend, hope you will accept sound doctrine to what saith the scriptures

 

[Titus]

Is not obedience to the commandments and obligation for justice? A work of "condign merit, that carries with it an obligation".

No,

If so then Noah earned favor with God for building the ark.

Every commandment that is obeyed would be meritorious if obligation=merit.

Do you think a direct commandment from God is optional?
Or are we obligated to obey?

Was it optional for Noah to build the ark for God to save him?

 

[Daniel L.]

No

So, if the offering of Isaac was optional: "Congruous merit that carries no obligation" and James says: Abraham was justified by congruous works, then Paul can only be saying: Abraham was not justified by the condign ones, since they can't contradict each other.

So, tell me how can Abraham have been justified by the congruous/optional works, and not by the condign/obligated works?

If it is the condign works that are obligated for justice, you are saying Paul taught: Abraham was justified without justice.

 

[Ezra]

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

was you born a Christian ? have you ever sinned fell short ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no such thing as "made" righteous by the will of another.

Yes, there is such a thing. It's called being 'declared' righteous. I use the term 'made' righteous to distinguish it from the aspect of justification that James is talking about.

See, it's impossible to establish right standing with God (justification) by doing righteous works. Right standing with God can only be established by having your sin guilt removed through the forgiveness of your sin. Faith is the conduit through which we receive that forgiveness of sin and, thus, right standing (justification) with God is established through faith. And so it is in that way that we receive right standing with God through our faith, not our righteous works. Paul calls that "righteousness through faith apart from works" - Romans 4:6. As opposed to the righteousness that comes from the works of the law.

Abraham was justified when he believed because he was already righteous, by his own works and his own choice:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Nobody establishes their righteousness by their own works:

"20Therefore no one will be justified (declared righteous) in His sight by works of the law. " Romans 3:20​

That's Paul's argument about justification. You don't do works to become righteous in God's sight. That's different from James' argument about justification which says you show that you are righteous through faith by your works:

"I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Or are you implying the devils, who also believe, received the Holy Spirit "apart from works" just because they believed, at any point in time, whatsoever at all ?

No.
Simply believing that God is the one and only God does not constitute the 'believing' that justifies.

 

[TahitiRun]

It seems some, or even most, of the posts are conflating the "objective" declaration of justification with it's "subjective" imputation.

Justification, like forgiveness and reconciliation, is really a two sided coin. Being both objective and subjective. This concept is taught by the example Paul gives in Rom 4:18, concerning Abraham, found here:

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

In that example, the declaration by God (side one, the objective side of the coin) is: "So shall thy seed be". And, when Abraham believed the promise (side two, the subjective side of the coin), it was counted (imputed) to him for righteousness. The declaration was stated "objectively", in that God made the declaration prior to Abraham believing it "subjectively". IOW, side one of the coin was not dependent on side two, when the declaration was made.

With that understanding, Paul uses Rom 4:5 as it's lead-in comparison:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The KJV doesn't really capture it well. The YLT being a much better translation, found here:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned—to righteousness:

The declaration in Rom 4:5 is: "Him who is declaring righteous the impious". And to those who believe that declaration, their faith is imputed to righteousness, just like Abraham's was.

It's important to know and teach the objective declaration: Namely, that Jesus justifies, Gk: δικαιουντα, and is declaring righteous (present tense), the ungodly. And, those who believe this declaration are imputed with/to righteousness.

 

[Daniel L.]

was you born a Christian ?

You spoke in the present saying: "we are all sinners", just because we were all sinners, doesn't mean we are all sinners.

Yes, there is such a thing. It's called being 'declared' righteous.

The thing is: you can only be declared righeous if you are righteous indeed, because His judgement is most just and perfect, and He will not justify the wicked. It is impossible for the unrighteous to be "declared" righteous, without perverting justice.

See, it's impossible to establish right standing with God (justification) by doing righteous works.

-The opposite is true, the only way you are justified is if you are just indeed:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

Faith is the conduit through which we receive that forgiveness of sin

not our righteous works.

-Here you go again, justifying the devils. By dead faith shall no flesh be justified. How can you seperate the works from the faith, and expect to have any faith left. All you are left with is dead faith, which justifieth no man, nor "makes" him righteous.
Repentance is the "conduit":

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The declaration in Rom 4:5 is: "Him who is declaring righteous the impious".

Is the same in the YTL: Exodus 23:7 [...] I do not justify a wicked man.

So, who is "Him declaring righteous the impious"?

just like Abraham's was.

Abraham was declared righteous because he was righteous:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And because the Scripture says: "Abraham believed", which means true faith because it is the only faith that justifies, proving again he already worked righteousness.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...you can only be declared righeous if you are righteous indeed...

And that's what God's forgiveness does. It removes your unrighteousness and so God is able to then justify you (declare you righteous).

 

[Enoch111]

It seems some, or even most, of the posts are conflating the "objective" declaration of justification with it's "subjective" imputation.

There is no such concept in the Bible. When God justifies (declares righteous) a sinner, He immediately imputes righteousness to him or her. That is all one and the same thing. "Abraham believed God and it was imputed (counted) to him for righteousness". Therefore the Bible says that we are justified BY GRACE through faith. It is the grace of God which makes this a reality. But it is the finished work of Christ which makes this possible. Christ (who knew no sin) was made SIN for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

-The opposite is true, the only way you are justified is if you are just indeed:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

Since nobody can do this, be righteous in and of themselves, it is impossible to be justified by first being righteous. And so justification is not by first being righteous and then presenting yourself to God to be declared righteous. The only way you can become righteous is by having your unrighteousness forgiven, after which God can and will declare you righteous in his sight. That's the righteousness that comes FROM God and is given as a free gift, as opposed to the righteousness that comes from you in the performance of righteous works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

-Here you go again, justifying the devils. By dead faith shall no flesh be justified. How can you seperate the works from the faith, and expect to have any faith left. All you are left with is dead faith, which justifieth no man, nor "makes" him righteous.
Repentance is the "conduit":

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Dead faith is defined as 'a faith that doesn't cause righteous behavior in a person'. Dead faith is not defined as 'not doing something righteous in order to become righteous in God's sight' as you are saying it means.

 

[TahitiRun]

Is the same in the YTL: Exodus 23:7 [...] I do not justify a wicked man.

So, who is "Him declaring righteous the impious"?

Jesus. Jesus is declaring righteous the ungodly. And, He died for all the ungodly. Not some ungodly, but all the ungodly (Rom 3:10). And, as such, all are justified to life (Rom 5:18), freely so by grace (Rom 3:24). However, not all have it revealed to them, until faith.

That's the concept of the Gospel. The Gospel itself being declarative: "Christ died for our sins"...(1Co 15:3). That act of Jesus dying for our sins is what justifies us objectively. Believing the declaration is what imputes that justification to us subjectively as "righteousness" (Rom 4:5), and "saves" us accordingly (1Co 15:2). This righteousness is our salvation and is revealed to us, from faith to faith (Rom 1:17). The faith of Christ (His righteousness) to our faith in Him.

 

[Daniel L.]

Since nobody can do this, be righteous in and of themselves

-You are building on top of sand, my friend, if King David can do it, so can we:

Psalm 18:21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

55 I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts.

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

166 Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

-Noah was saved because he was righteous:

Genesis 7:1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Abraham, Lot, Job, Enoch, from righteous Abel to Zacharias, John the Baptist and their parents, and of course Our LORD Jesus Christ and His parents were all righteous before the LORD.

So what do you mean "nobody can do this"? That is why all that comes after err is err still, because you have built on sand.
I tell you, I believe you can do it:

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[TahitiRun]

Abraham was declared righteous because he was righteous:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And because the Scripture says: "Abraham believed", which means true faith because it is the only faith that justifies, proving again he already worked righteousness.

In Gen 15:5-6, the example Paul is using in Romans chapter 4, the "promise" God made to Abraham proceeded Abraham's faith therein. Whatever intrinsic righteousness you believe Abraham had, it was not conditional to God making the promise.

 

[Daniel L.]

free gift

Free Gift ?

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Jesus is declaring righteous the ungodly.

Not the Word, no.
Jesus does the Will of the Father and His Father said:

Exodus 23:7 [..] thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

-Jesus is not an abomination:

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

 

[Daniel L.]

Whatever intrinsic righteousness you believe Abraham had, it was not conditional to God making the promise.

Yes it was. It was the reason why Abraham was blessed, because of his righteousness:

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.