"JUSTIFICATION"

[Taken]

Key: "with God".
But I said no man can be righteous "in and of themselves"... ↓↓↓


The ONLY way to become righteous in God's sight and, thus, receive a declaration of righteousness is to have your unrighteousness removed through the grace of forgiveness. That is the ONLY way anyone will ever be righteous in God's sight. No amount of righteous work can ever do that.

Agree!

Become “THIS”....converted.
“THEN”.one is prepared to do “THAT”....works that glorify God.
Works that Glorify God......God shall “REWARD”.
Works that DO NOT Glorify God.....God shall “BURN”.

...Conversion is NOT WORKS.
...Conversion IS a SERVICE.

Rom 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TahitiRun]

Which part of "I will not justify the ungodly" is wrong exegesis ?

An exegesis that conflates flesh and spirit. An exegesis that believes it's referent is the soul without division from the spirit (Heb 4:12). It's not. It's referent is the soul according to the flesh, sans spirit.

When scripture speaks of Christ dying for the ungodly (Rom 5:6), in-order to bear our iniquities and justify us accordingly (Isa 53:11), it's referent is the soul according to the spirit (as was Christ's 1Ti 3:16) and us in Him (Col 1:16). Not the flesh. Our flesh was crucified in His flesh (Rom 8:3 together with Rom 6:6 and Gal 2:20). The flesh was NOT justified.

And that is what you've been conflating in your commentary and why you're unable to believe on "Him that justifies the ungodly" (Rom 4:5).

The two elements of the soul (ie: "flesh" and "spirit", Gen 2:7) are separate and distinct entities that have different referents and cues within scripture. They're not to be conflated.

 

[Daniel L.]

slaughter the Passover lamb

Jesus is the Lamb, there is no other Lamb, He was indeed slaughter, but woe to that man by whom it is betrayed.
Don't be on the side of those who slaughter the Lamb, don't slaughter him not even in your heart.
His Blood is Life, and His Flesh is Spirit, so this is no justification for slaughtering lambs, remember it was because of iniquity that he was slaughter:

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

The flesh was NOT justified.

If the flesh is ungodly and was not justified, then why does Paul say to believe on "him that justifies the ungodly"?

 

[TahitiRun]

If the flesh is ungodly and was not justified, then why does Paul say to believe on "him that justifies the ungodly"?

The sins of the flesh are imputed (counted as such) against the soul and consequently the soul proper is reckoned as being "ungodly", stained and spotted as such. For a little leaven leavens the whole lump (Gal 5:9).

However, Christ died to justify and save the soul according to the spirit, not the flesh that commits the sin. The same principle is found in 1Co 5:1-8 wherein the soul's flesh is given over for destruction so that the soul's spirit may be saved (v.5).

 

[Daniel L.]

The sins of the flesh are imputed (counted as such) against the soul and consequently the soul proper is reckoned as being "ungodly"

If the sins of the flesh transfer over to the soul and make it "ungodly", then the flesh must first stop sinning, in order for the soul to be "godly".

Christ died to justify and save the soul according to the spirit, not the flesh that commits the sin.

Right, but because He can't justify the ungodly, the flesh has to stop sinning first, then He can justify you.

 

[TahitiRun]

If the sins of the flesh transfer over to the soul and make it "ungodly", then the flesh must first stop sinning, in order for the soul to be "godly".


Right, but because He can't justify the ungodly, the flesh has to stop sinning first, then He can justify you.

Sin isn't really "transferred over", but rather reckoned, accounted and charged as such against the soul. Your understanding of what imputation means is really not how scripture uses the term.

For lack of a better way to explain it: Think of the soul as a compound consisting of two elements [flesh (the nature of the body) and spirit (the breath of God)], wherein imputation from one of the elements (in this case flesh) doesn't actually "make" the substance of the soul change. It simply accounts or reckons (ie: imputes) the acts of the flesh to the soul. Thereby judicially allowing the soul to be charged, judged, and condemned and/or acquitted accordingly.

And that is exactly what happened to Christ when our sins were imputed upon Him. Christ's nature did not change in the process, however He was charged, judged and condemned accordingly as if He did the sin and we were acquitted (justified) thereby, as if we never sinned.

Jesus can and did justify us (the soul) even when our flesh was sinning and committing iniquity against Him, even when those sins were being reckoned as such against us (the soul) and imputed to Christ on the cross. And that is exactly what scripture testifies to:

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Is it your belief that these scriptures are not true? Or perhaps, that they're being miss translated, or miss understood? What exactly is your position and understanding of these texts?

 

[JesusFan1]

no we are declared righteous when we get saved in our sinful nature to be declared righteous you first have to be a sinner no longer a sinner.

your in bad shape if you question the free gift

We are sinners who are also saints at same time, as NOW have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us by the Father!

 

[Daniel L.]

Sin isn't really "transferred over", but rather reckoned, accounted and charged as such against the soul.

Well if sin isn't really transfer over, then neither is righteousness really tranfered over to the soul, when one believes, since it is the same term beeing used. Which means the soul is not really righteous, and it can't be justified, because does not justify the "not really righteous" because they are seen as ungodly still. That is why faith without works is dead.

We are sinners who are also saints at same time

How can you join together what God has separated ?

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 

[TahitiRun]

Well if sin isn't really transfer over, then neither is righteousness really tranfered over to the soul, when one believes, since it is the same term beeing used. Which means the soul is not really righteous, and it can't be justified, because does not justify the "not really righteous" because they are seen as ungodly still. That is why faith without works is dead.

It's obvious you don't understand the biblical concept of imputation or how God was in Christ justifying and reconciling us to Himself.

When Jesus hung on the cross, our sins were imputed to Him. And His death thereby acquitted us of quilt and condemnation and justified us (the soul) accordingly. It also reconciled us to Him.

It didn't "make" us righteous by changing the substance or nature of the soul (our flesh or spirit), but rather reckoned and accounted us (the soul) as "righteous" and without sin, in Him. And in so doing, God forgave, justified and reconciled us to Himself.

Does that make us (the soul) sinless at the present time? Of course not. We still sin as before, and we do so according to the flesh. Read the following:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And, Paul tells us exactly what it is that sins. It's the sin nature of the flesh. The flesh that dwells within us:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The flesh has been crucified with Christ, however it's not yet been rendered inactive. Will it be? Yes, at death when the flesh returns to dust and our spirit to God (Ecc 12:7).

Regarding righteousness. Those of faith, those who believe on Him who justifies the ungodly, have Christ's righteousness, that is: The righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith (Rom 1:17), and imputed to our account (Rom 4:5). And that righteousness is not of our own, but of Christ:

Php 3:9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ—the righteousness that is of God by the faith,

You've yet to comment on Rom 5:6, 8, 9 and 10. Do you plan to?

 

[Daniel L.]

When Jesus hung on the cross, our sins were imputed to Him.

Our sins were place upon Him, not imputed inside of Him, because in Him there can be no sin because He is God.

It didn't "make" us righteous

That is my point, It doesn't "make" you righteous, which means you can't be justified, because God only justifies the righteous, not the fake righteous, nor the half righteous, if there even is such thing.

Rom 5:6, 8, 9 and 10. Do you plan to?

Yes, He died for everyone, but can only justify those who repent. Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish.

 

[TahitiRun]

Our sins were place upon Him, not imputed inside of Him, because in Him there can be no sin because He is God.



That is my point, It doesn't "make" you righteous, which means you can't be justified, because God only justifies the righteous, not the fake righteous, nor the half righteous, if there even is such thing.



Yes, He died for everyone, but can only justify those who repent. Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish.

You really do not understand imputation, nor did I infer that our sin is somehow imputed or injected inside Christ. I'm not sure what that even means... And it's painfully obvious you do not understand justification either.

Justification (that is: to declare righteous) is always objective. It's a forensic finding and judicial pronouncement by the Judge (Christ). It really doesn't matter if the person to whom it's pronounced has repented or even believed in what the Judge declares. The person could be comatose, deaf dumb and blind, or even dead for that matter, and the pronouncement would still be valid. The declaration is objective. It's rendered by the Judge and that's what counts. The condition of it's subject is irrelevant.

To impute the Judges declaration however, is subjective. That's a different matter, wherein repentance, faith, etc., are necessary. However, that happens in the accounting office, across the hall from the courtroom, if you will.

Justification (the declaration) happened one time only. And it happened to all.

YLT captures it well:

Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;

It's imputation happens each time a sinner is brought to faith. And that has happened not once, but rather millions or billions of times.

Anyway, I can tell this isn't going to change you or I. I wish you the best in Christ, however.

 

[Daniel L.]

It really doesn't matter if the person to whom it's pronounced has repented or even believed in what the Judge declares.

It matters because the Judge is Perfect and Most Just, so He can only declare perfect justice. So the person has to be righteous indeed to be declared righteous by the perfect Judge. That is why He won't justify the ungodly, it would pervert justice.

 

[Ezra]

We are sinners who are also saints at same time, as NOW have the very righteousness of Christ imputed to us by the Father!

yes and no the sin nature/old man is there but we are new creations in Christ old things passed away all things become new. yes we will sin but we are not the sinner we use to be justification is being declared righteous just as if we never sinned

 

[Daniel L.]

old things passed away all things become new

Doesn't look very "new" to me. I mean, you were a sinner and are still a sinner, what you mean, "new creation"?

 

[Ezra]

what you mean, "new creation"?

read your bible 2nd Corinthians 5:17 & 21

So the person has to be righteous indeed to be declared righteous by the perfect Judge. That is why He won't justify the ungodly, it would pervert justice.

your so wrong it would take a full day to show your error

 

[Ezra]

It matters because the Judge is Perfect and Most Just, so He can only declare perfect justice. So the person has to be righteous indeed to be declared righteous by the perfect Judge. That is why He won't justify the ungodly, it would pervert justice.

it would help if you only knew what you was posting

 

[Daniel L.]

error

Saying Im wrong doesn't prove you right.

 

[JesusFan1]

It matters because the Judge is Perfect and Most Just, so He can only declare perfect justice. So the person has to be righteous indeed to be declared righteous by the perfect Judge. That is why He won't justify the ungodly, it would pervert justice.

We arer made perfect in the sight of God due to the death of the Lord Jesus, and His resurrection, so all who are now in Jesus are saved and have His own righteousness imputed unto them!

 

[JesusFan1]

yes and no the sin nature/old man is there but we are new creations in Christ old things passed away all things become new. yes we will sin but we are not the sinner we use to be justification is being declared righteous just as if we never sinned

We are saints to God the father now due to the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, so while we still do sin, now are seen as righteousness in Christ!

 

[Daniel L.]

all who are now in Jesus are saved

True, if you are in Him you are saved:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.