Finished work of Christ?

[Ronald Nolette]

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

None of those are soteriological. but nice try.

Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No suffering, denying denial of self adds to or makes us more saved! Only the blood of Jesus saves a soul!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

“it is finished”
The Passover sacrifice!

Yes as jesus is the true passover and no other blood can be shend for the remission of sins.

If Jesus' blood has not removed all of a persons sins- they are lost forever!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Chapter and verse please.

Gal. 4:5, Gal. 3:13 Eph 5:16, Col. 4:5

A comment like that just shows the weakness of your position

Said the one who based their defense on human philosophy!

Where does scripture say Jesus was the scapegoat?

REad teh account of teh scapegoat. Jesus is the fulfilment of the type! He had sins laid upon Him and sent into teh howling wilderness. (the time on the cross)

Allowing someone to die for the guilty is not the same as legally punishing a person for the sins of another.

God is a God of justice (PS 33:5, 89:14, 99:4, Rev 15: for example).

Are you really suggesting that a Just God would punish an innocent person for the sins of another?

Well that is why Jesus became our sins as Scripture says. When God punished Jesus, He was punishing all the sins that He became! So He became guilty of all your sins and God punished them! That is why you can havew His righteousness credited to you, for your sinfulness was credited to Him- " He became sin, who knew no sin, that we may become the rightessness of God in Him".

When I trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus for my salvation- I am saying what god said: He is guilty and I am innocent! (because of grace and mercy)

I agree with that scripture but it has no bearing on what we are discussing.

It does- it is you that says god would not allow the just to suffer punishment for teh unjust- the Bible says Yes God will and did!

No he didn't become a sinner. The term made to be sin means he became a sacrifice for sin not that Jesus became a sinful person. He "knew no sin".

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[a] he condemned sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3)
The footnote [a] says Or and as a sin offering.

The early fathers, whom commented on 2Cor 5:21 believed made sin meant then likeness of sinful flesh.
For example
Augustine "on account of the likeness of sinful flesh in which He came, He was called sin"
Gregory of Nyssa"He made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin,” giving once more the name of “sin” to the flesh."
Ambrose “Christ is said to have been made, but of a woman; that is, He was “made” as regards his birth from a Virgin … He Who in his flesh bore our flesh, in His body bore our infirmities and our curses … So it is written elsewhere: Who knew no sin, but was made sin for us”
And there are more

Moreover John Calving understood it the same way.
[Paul] places the fountain of righteousness entirely in the incarnation of Christ: “He has made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Cor. 5:21)

I do not give a whit what Augustine the heretic says. But Jesus was both, He was a sin offering and He was sin. Teh greek doesn't allow for sin offering to be used for 2 Cor. 5:21. The Greek word is harmartia and means sin and sin alone. Never sin offering. If God wanted to make clear Jesus was just a sin offering, the Greek would have been : harmartia prosphora, but it is not so as much as I admire many of the church fathers, they were not tasked to write Scripture

That says nothing about punishment. you are clutching at straws

So being slain is not a punishment to you? Ok then!

Again another opinion with no scriptural support.


Scripture is very clear that forgiveness means letting someone off the debt they are due (e.g. Mt 18:23-35)

Yes and that is done by grace and mercy because jesus died for us! If you reject the death and resurreection of Jesus for your sin debt- you will not be forgiven of anything and go to the lake of fire!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you saved (redeemed) by being freed from the moral law according to Gal4:5?

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

That is for Jews only! We as Gentiles were never given the Mosaic law as gentile nations to live under!

 

[Mungo]

The Hallel could be sung in four parts or recited in four parts. Also the fourth part was probably what teh disples were singing when they left. But it is the Eliyahu HaNavi, which is directly associated with teh fourth cup. The Hallel may or may not be.

So you claim but all the sites I have found say otherwise.

That is pure speculation that runs totally counter to Mosaic Law and Jewish Custom.

It's not speculation. It's scripture.
You claims about acting counter to the Mosaic Law and Jewish Custom are just your opinions with no evidence offered.

I cited the scriptures.

No you didn't cite a single scripture

And where do you get Jesus was offered wine twice?

Mk 15:23, Mt 27:34, Lk 23:37

 

[Mungo]

Gal. 4:5, Gal. 3:13 Eph 5:16, Col. 4:5

Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Gal 3:13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree
Eph 5:16 making the most of the time, because the days are evil.
Col 4:5 Conduct yourselves wisely toward outsiders, making the most of the time.

None of those say "He pulled us out of the market place of sin"
Try again.

Said the one who based their defense on human philosophy!

Based on rational thought and scripture.

REad teh account of teh scapegoat. Jesus is the fulfilment of the type! He had sins laid upon Him and sent into teh howling wilderness. (the time on the cross).

Where does scripture say "the time on cross" was the "howling wilderness"?
Do you have scripture or is that just your opinion?

If the scapegoat was a type of Jesus why was the scapegoat not killed?
According to Lev 16:22 "he [Aaron] shall let the goat go in the wilderness."
They didn't let Jesus go free.

 

[Mungo]

So being slain is not a punishment to you? Ok then!

The people in Ukraine are being slain. They are not being legally punished.

Many people have suffered (and died), and are still suffering from the Corona Virus, but they are not being legally punished.

 

[Mungo]

Yes and that is done by grace and mercy because jesus died for us! If you reject the death and resurreection of Jesus for your sin debt- you will not be forgiven of anything and go to the lake of fire!

You are ignoring my point. If you are forgiven then you are let off the debt. You don't have to pay it.
Can't you understand the lesson of Mt 18:23-35?

If someone pays a debt for you then you don't need to be let off the debt. It has been paid.
If Jesus was punished for all our sins then God has no need to forgive us. The debt has been paid.

 

[theefaith]

Are you saved (redeemed) by being freed from the moral law according to Gal4:5?

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Christ the redeemer of all men!

All men are redeemed!

 

[theefaith]

None of those are soteriological. but nice try.

Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

refers to redemption not salvation

No suffering, denying denial of self adds to or makes us more saved! Only the blood of Jesus saves a soul!

 

[theefaith]

Yes as jesus is the true passover and no other blood can be shend for the remission of sins.

If Jesus' blood has not removed all of a persons sins- they are lost forever!

how are the merits of Christ applied to souls

 

[Mungo]

It does- it is you that says god would not allow the just to suffer punishment for teh unjust- the Bible says Yes God will and did!

No I didn 't say that God would not allows the just to suffer for then unjust.
I told you I agree with that scripture.

But what you are arguing is that God (the Father) punished Jesus instead of us.
1Pet 3:18 says Christ suffered not was punished. Big difference as I pointed out in post #110.

Christ voluntarily suffered for us but that does not mean God punished him.
As Jesus said
"the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (Mt 20:28, also Mk 10:45))

"For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again."
Does that sound like a Father who loves his Son punishing that Son instead of those that commit the sin?

I do not give a whit what Augustine the heretic says.

I suppose all the other Early Church Fathers were heretics as well - and Calvin (though he actually was a heretic is some of his beliefs).

Only you have the truth.

But Jesus was both, He was a sin offering and He was sin. Teh greek doesn't allow for sin offering to be used for 2 Cor. 5:21. The Greek word is harmartia and means sin and sin alone. Never sin offering. If God wanted to make clear Jesus was just a sin offering, the Greek would have been : harmartia prosphora, but it is not so as much as I admire many of the church fathers, they were not tasked to write Scripture.

The Early Fathers and commentaries say you are wrong in that.

 

[Mungo]

@Ronald Nolette
I'm still waiting for a reply to post #82
and my question in post#83 :-Who did Jesus buy us back from?

 

[farouk]

John 19.30 was the verse that I also immediately thought of. Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 also very strongly testify to this glorious fact.

 

[Mungo]

REad teh account of teh scapegoat. Jesus is the fulfilment of the type! He had sins laid upon Him and sent into teh howling wilderness. (the time on the cross)

Another flaw in your scapegoat is a type of Jesus theory (apart from those I pointed out in post #109) is that In Lev 16 the goat that is sent out is prayed over by Aaron the High Priest.
But if it is God the Father laying the sins of the people on Jesus then that makes the Father the High Priest. But scripture says Jesus is the High Priest (Heb 2:17, 3:1, 4:14).

 

[Mungo]

Redeemed from what?

I wasn't going to get involved in this part of the discussion but I'll give you my thoughts and probably leave it at that.

The term redemption rests on the concept that we are “slaves to sin” and born in a fallen state in some way under the power of Satan. Redemption has the implications of paying a price (1 Cor 6:20) to take back into ownership (as in redeeming a pawned item), or to free (as in freeing a slave). St. Paul refers to us as “slaves of sin” several times (Rom 6:17; Rom 6:20)

“But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.” (Gal 4:5)

“[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.” (Ti 2:14)

“Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.” (Heb 9:15)

See also Rom 3:24-25, Eph 1:7, Heb 9:12

In Gal 4:5 Paul is addressing those Christians who are Judaising - putting themselves under the Mosaic Law. He is pointing out that the Law was given temporarily until Christ came (Gal 3:24), but the (Mosaic) Law did not save them but indeed was a curse. However "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”— that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:13-14).

When you ask about moral law what exactly are you referring to? The Mosaic Law was a mixture of moral, ceremonial and social laws.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

how are the merits of Christ applied to souls

As it says in Eph. 2:8-10, by grace, through faith and not of works.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you weren't given the mosaic law, didn't Christ die for you to redeem you from the moral law? Then what did Christ redeem you from?

All people are born alienated from god. As it says in romans, the Jews are lost within the law, and we are lost without the law.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's not speculation. It's scripture.
You claims about acting counter to the Mosaic Law and Jewish Custom are just your opinions with no evidence offered.

Wrong! Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law! So He drank the fourth cup at the seder table. It is up to you to prove this theory with Scriptural facts. Otherwise it is specualtion that runs counter to Law and tradition.

As I already showed you the Hallel was the song probably sung as they were going to the mount of Olives.

None of those say "He pulled us out of the market place of sin"
Try again.

Yes they do! For the word is exagorazo! Your complaint is false.

Based on rational thought and scripture.

Not Scripture but someone else's opinion. Scripture and Jewish history speak against this false theory. But you are free to believe whatever you wish with little to no evidence to support you. That is your privilege.

Where does scripture say "the time on cross" was the "howling wilderness"?
Do you have scripture or is that just your opinion?

If the scapegoat was a type of Jesus why was the scapegoat not killed?
According to Lev 16:22 "he [Aaron] shall let the goat go in the wilderness."
They didn't let Jesus go free.

for someone who touts reason- you seem bereft when it comes applying Scripture. Teh scapegoat or azazel had the sins of the people placed on it by the priest and then sent into the wilderness to show God removed their sins and had them placed on the azazel.

Jesus was that. As far as Jesus not fulfilling every jot and tittle- you can take it up with god when you stand before Him! I just know Scripture absolutely declares Jesus became our sin by taking on HIm our sins, the howling wilderness was symbolic of the utter abandonment Jesus experienced when He was being punished for our sin.

As one preacher once said: What man has to endure in the eternity of time, Jesus endured in the infiniteness of agony. No one was or ever will be more forsaken of God than Jesus was!

So you claim but all the sites I have found say otherwise.

Well as you seem bereft, I would not be surprised if your websites are not even authentic Jewish sites.

Mk 15:23, Mt 27:34, Lk 23:37

And where anywhere does it say these were two separate offers to drink??? No it is simply the same sponge retold in three gospels.

The people in Ukraine are being slain. They are not being legally punished.

Many people have suffered (and died), and are still suffering from the Corona Virus, but they are not being legally punished.

Wow! You really are that straining at gnats kind of person aren't you. Jesus was slain by an order. It was a punishment handed down by Cesar! C'mon you aren't that benighted are you? Or are you just being argumentative for being argumentative.

Another flaw in your scapegoat is a type of Jesus theory (apart from those I pointed out in post #109) is that In Lev 16 the goat that is sent out is prayed over by Aaron the High Priest.
But if it is God the Father laying the sins of the people on Jesus then that makes the Father the High Priest. But scripture says Jesus is the High Priest (Heb 2:17, 3:1, 4:14).

and Jesus is the Passover lamb but He wasn't cooked and eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread! Straining at gnats again.

@Ronald Nolette
I'm still waiting for a reply to post #82
and my question in post#83 :-Who did Jesus buy us back from?

Not who, but what! Condemnation and the lake of fire.

But what you are arguing is that God (the Father) punished Jesus instead of us.
1Pet 3:18 says Christ suffered not was punished. Big difference as I pointed out in post #110.

Once again you need to put your strainer away! His suffering was the punishment for our sin. C'mon you aren't that nit picky in accepting theories that are way out there, so why now? Just to be argumentative. Jesus became our sin-p He suffered in being punished for sin. If you can't see that then this is where we need to end!

 

[Enoch111]

What moral law did Adam and Eve violate? Did they steal, lie etc? Were they given the moral law in the first place?

There are moral laws and there are spiritual laws. Adam and Eve violated the spiritual law which says that the wages of sin is death. They did this by their disobedience.