Finished work of Christ?

[Mungo]

Wrong! Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law! So He drank the fourth cup at the seder table. It is up to you to prove this theory with Scriptural facts. Otherwise it is specualtion that runs counter to Law and tradition.

Again you provide no evidence that it is Jewish Law and Tradition
Just more opinions

As I already showed you the Hallel was the song probably sung as they were going to the mount of Olives.

Actually that was my claim so I'm glad you agree with me.
As the 4th cup was drunk after the great Hallel so you have just agreed that it wasn't drunk at the Seder..

Yes they do! For the word is exagorazo! Your complaint is false.

No they do not.
I actually printed them out for you and none of them say "He pulled us out of the market place of sin"
That is your invention

Not Scripture but someone else's opinion. Scripture and Jewish history speak against this false theory. But you are free to believe whatever you wish with little to no evidence to support you. That is your privilege.

You mean like all your opinions!
But you are free to believe whatever you wish with little to no evidence to support you. That is your privilege.

for someone who touts reason- you seem bereft when it comes applying Scripture. Teh scapegoat or azazel had the sins of the people placed on it by the priest and then sent into the wilderness to show God removed their sins and had them placed on the azazel.

Jesus was that. As far as Jesus not fulfilling every jot and tittle- you can take it up with god when you stand before Him! I just know Scripture absolutely declares Jesus became our sin by taking on HIm our sins, the howling wilderness was symbolic of the utter abandonment Jesus experienced when He was being punished for our sin.

Again those are just your opinions.
But you are free to believe whatever you wish with little to no evidence to support you. That is your privilege.

As one preacher once said: What man has to endure in the eternity of time, Jesus endured in the infiniteness of agony. No one was or ever will be more forsaken of God than Jesus was!

Not Scripture but someone else's opinion
But you are free to believe whatever you wish with little to no evidence to support you. That is your privilege.

And where anywhere does it say these were two separate offers to drink??? No it is simply the same sponge retold in three gospels.

Wrong again.

Mk 15:23 And they offered him wine mingled with myrrh; but he did not take it.
Vs .24 And they crucified him. John's account is when he was on the cross.

Similarly with Mt 27:34
In Lk 23:36 (not 37 my mistyping) they offer him the wine, then there is a conversation with the criminals, and then he cries out to the Father and dies.

In all three they offer him the wine unbidden.
In John's gospel he asks for the vinegar just before he dies.

Clearly a different and second occasion, unless you think the Holy Spirit got muddled when inspiring the evangelists.

Wow! You really are that straining at gnats kind of person aren't you. Jesus was slain by an order. It was a punishment handed down by Cesar! C'mon you aren't that benighted are you? Or are you just being argumentative for being argumentative.

Your claim was that God the Father punished Jesus. Now you are changing your argument.

and Jesus is the Passover lamb but He wasn't cooked and eaten with bitter herbs and unleavened bread! Straining at gnats again.

I notice that when you have no answer you just claim I'm straining at gnats.

Not who, but what! Condemnation and the lake of fire.

Who! You buy from someone.

Once again you need to put your strainer away! His suffering was the punishment for our sin. C'mon you aren't that nit picky in accepting theories that are way out there, so why now? Just to be argumentative. Jesus became our sin-p He suffered in being punished for sin.

Once again you have no answer so resort to claiming I'm straining at gnats

If you can't see that then this is where we need to end!

As you keep ducking and diving, and spouting opinions with no evidence - yes I agree we might as well end.
Goodbye

 

[Mungo]

What moral law did Adam and Eve violate? Did they steal, lie etc? Were they given the moral law in the first place?

When God created mankind he gave a moral law. We (Catholics) call that the natural law or God's eternal moral law. It applies to all people through all time.
Paul says "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law." (Rom 2:14). Here by law Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law, or rather those elements of the Mosaic Law that are moral laws.
They are mostly (but not exclusively) given in the Ten commandments (and the Ten Commandments are not exclusively moral laws).

We can see this in Gen4:8-16 where Cain slays Abel. He knows he has done wrong, as does Lamech in vs 23-24.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Didn't the moral law exist from Eve well before the mosaic law was given in written form?

Romans2:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

We can only guess. Nothing is written in Scripture about any type of law . so all we can do is suppose and that is always unsafe ground when it comes to imposing something on Scripture.

As for the romans quote, you need to see that Paul is speaking of gentiles, which means non-Jews so that is the time when the Mosaic Law was in effect.

and remember obedience to a moral law never said anybody.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Again you provide no evidence that it is Jewish Law and Tradition
Just more opinions

Scripture is the evidence that Jesus fulfilled the law. When you provide evidence of this theory you support as you brought it first, I will gladly cite jewish cited showing how passover was kept!

Actually that was my claim so I'm glad you agree with me.
As the 4th cup was drunk after the great Hallel so you have just agreed that it wasn't drunk at the Seder..

No you are wrong!

As I showed you the fourth song was and still is:

Eliyahu HaNavi
"Eliyahu HaNavi", in English, Elijah the Prophet is A Hebrew song entreating the prophet Elijah, an invited guest at the Passover meal, to return soon with the Messiah. This song is also part of the traditional Saturday night Havdalah service.

Transliteration English Translation
Eliyahu haNavi
Eliyahu haTishbi,
Eliyahu haGil'adi -

Bim'hera v'yameinu yavoh eleinu,
im mashiach ben David. (x2)

Elijah the prophet
Elijah the Tishbite,
Elijah the Giladite -

In haste and in our days may he come to us
with the messiah son of David. (x2)

This is often sung at the opening of the door for Elijah, upon pouring the fourth cup.

So the hallel comes at the closing of the seder After teh Eliyahu Ha Navi and the fourth cup was drunk! As I said, though I cannot be certain it was more than likely that the disciples sand the four unit part of the Hallel on the journey and up the mount of olives.

Now if you have more evidence that disproves what I showed here I am all eyes.

Hallel at the Seder | My Jewish Learning

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your claim was that God the Father punished Jesus. Now you are changing your argument.

No I am not. god the Father was the one who punished Jesus for our sins anmd Jesus suffered as a result of God the Father punishing Jesus.

Not Scripture but someone else's opinion
But you are free to believe whatever you wish with little to no evidence to support you. That is your privilege.

Nice dodge on your part. You post verses but fail to show how they prove your case. You post a mans theory and we are supposed to all bow down and accept your ex-cathedra pontifications. Looking BACK I HAVE OUT EVIDENCED YOU ABOUT 10 TO 1

Who! You buy from someone.

I didn'y know you were in charge of telling God that He couldn't buy us back from the lake of fire and being slaves to sin! YOu will need to revise scripture then to edit Gods mistakes.

As you keep ducking and diving, and spouting opinions with no evidence - yes I agree we might as well end.
Goodbye

Well have the last word if you wish. I know your type accuse others of teh very thing you do to avoid having to defend your position.

 

[Enoch111]

Wasn't it choosing the moral knowledge of good & evil which produced guilt & separated them from God?

Actually it was disobedience to God's command. The violation of God's commandments is sin: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life (Gen 3:17)

Today, sin in the transgression of the Law (the Ten Commandments).

 

[Mungo]

Scripture is the evidence that Jesus fulfilled the law. When you provide evidence of this theory you support as you brought it first, I will gladly cite jewish cited showing how passover was kept!



No you are wrong!

As I showed you the fourth song was and still is:

Eliyahu HaNavi
"Eliyahu HaNavi", in English, Elijah the Prophet is A Hebrew song entreating the prophet Elijah, an invited guest at the Passover meal, to return soon with the Messiah. This song is also part of the traditional Saturday night Havdalah service.

Transliteration English Translation
Eliyahu haNavi
Eliyahu haTishbi,
Eliyahu haGil'adi -

Bim'hera v'yameinu yavoh eleinu,
im mashiach ben David. (x2)

Elijah the prophet
Elijah the Tishbite,
Elijah the Giladite -

In haste and in our days may he come to us
with the messiah son of David. (x2)

This is often sung at the opening of the door for Elijah, upon pouring the fourth cup.

So the hallel comes at the closing of the seder After teh Eliyahu Ha Navi and the fourth cup was drunk! As I said, though I cannot be certain it was more than likely that the disciples sand the four unit part of the Hallel on the journey and up the mount of olives.

Now if you have more evidence that disproves what I showed here I am all eyes.

Hallel at the Seder | My Jewish Learning

You said:

this is where we need to end!

But obviously didn't mean it.

I said

yes I agree we might as well end.
Goodbye

But did mean it

 

[Mungo]

Did the moral law which God gave Adam/Eve at their creation, tell them to be naked in God's most holy presence?

Why do you think that being naked or clothed before God is a moral issue?

 

[theefaith]

Redeemed from what?

the fall of Adam!

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[theefaith]

As it says in Eph. 2:8-10, by grace, through faith and not of works.

That’s how he redeemed us not how we receive it

try Mk 16:16 or acts 8:36-38 or ez 36:25-27

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You said:


But obviously didn't mean it.

I said

But did mean it

YOu should learn to heed your statements below the line you added! But I was waiting for you to reply and you did. Goodbye! We will battle on another thread I am sure.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you agree to be freed from the moral knowledge of good & evil through faith in Christ's death as per Romans7:4,6?

Yes but knowledge is not law!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That’s how he redeemed us not how we receive it

try Mk 16:16 or acts 8:36-38 or ez 36:25-27

Yes that is exactly how we receive His payment!

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Romans 10:9-12
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No work on your part will help save you! Jesus ended any thought of works salvation when He died and rose!

 

[farouk]

Yes that is exactly how we receive His payment!

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Romans 10:9-12
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No work on your part will help save you! Jesus ended any thought of works salvation when He died and rose!

@Ronald Nolette Great verses there!

 

[theefaith]

Yes that is exactly how we receive His payment!

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Romans 10:9-12
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No work on your part will help save you! Jesus ended any thought of works salvation when He died and rose!

Then you are claiming we are saved when we first believed?

 

[Mungo]

YOu should learn to heed your statements below the line you added! But I was waiting for you to reply and you did. Goodbye! We will battle on another thread I am sure.

Unlikely as I'm wasting no more time on your trolling, lies and unsubstantiated opinions.
I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[Mungo]

If being unclothed in God's most holy presence is not immoral, why did they flee seeking to be clothed after they chose the knowledge of good & evil?

They didn't flee. They hid themselves.
God created them naked.
He also talked to them while they were naked. And Gen 2:25 says "And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed."
He also seems to have walked with them in the cool of the evening while they were naked.
So being naked in the presence of God whilst does not seem to have been a problem.

It seems to have been a problem between them, not between them and God.
We can only speculate because scripture is not specific but perhaps after eating the fruit they became aware of desire/lust or just embarrassment between them. Whatever the reason, nakedness does not seem to have been a moral issue between them and God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then you are claiming we are saved when we first believed?

That is what Scriptures say so Yes I believe!

 

[theefaith]

That is what Scriptures say so Yes I believe!

then explain?


Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

then explain?


Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

YOu need to understand that when the word salvation appears it is not always about being saved. sometimes it is deliverance, sometimes it is going home to be with God.

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: IOW we are already translated!

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Again already done!