Confusion about the Law.

[Ferris Bueller]

If the Law has been destroyed then adultery is no longer a sin. Homosexuality is no longer a sin. In fact, nothing would prevent you from attending a Satanic ritual.

Well, since the law has not been destroyed by the coming of Christ there's nothing to comment on here except to say the coming of Christ causes some laws (not the ones you listed) to simply not be relevant to the person brought near to God through the New way of faith in Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit. I know you won't accept this, but you should at least give those who don't agree with your view of the law the dignity and respect and courtesy of at least knowing their argument.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Fulfilling the Law doesn't mean "now I don't have to obey it." NOTHING in the Bible suggests that. That is a doctrine from the pit of hell.

It can, actually. And it does come from the Bible and is not "from the pit of hell".

Even you acknowledge that we don't have to obey the various laws of animal sacrifice and the time table in which those sacrifices were offered. And that's because those laws were fulfilled, one time for all time for those who have accepted Christ's blood and body as fulfillment of those lawful requirements. To God's complete and total satisfaction such that no further action of law is required regarding those. So don't go saying 'I don't have to obey it' isn't Biblical and comes from the pit of hell. It's right in the pages of our own Bibles.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The deeds of the flesh are the exact opposite of the Law.

And so there is no violation of the law when you walk according to the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:23).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The prophetic shadow of the rest we have yet to enter is the Sabbath.

2 Peter 3:8. The 1,000 year reign of Messiah is the fulfillment of the prophetic week. From Adam, we have enjoyed almost 6,000 years of human history. The Sabbath is coming soon.

Those who believe are already in the rest spoken about in Hebrews 4:

"Now we who have believed enter that rest. " Hebrews 4:3​

'Enter' in this verse is in the present tense. Everyone who believes is presently in the rest the author is speaking about. The promised rest will find it's complete and final fulfillment at the end of the ages.

 

[bbyrd009]

It's 'new' in revelation, not in it's appearing (1 John 2:7-8). It's visible with the eyes of the Spirit in this New Covenant, not with the eyes of law in the old covenant. Even though it is, itself, a law. Ironic, isn't it?

it seems you end up having to do even more, even though there is no law for it

 

[Happy Trails]

I do not understand you when you say, "If YHVH's law is written on someone's heart, they would have the desire to obey it. They would not constantly try to find loopholes so that they could make up their own law."

What I do understand is that when the Lord wrote a law on my heart, and I obeyed, my life was transformed into something indescribably beautiful.

You make a claim that is no different than a Mormon, or a JW, or a Catholic or a Muslim, or even an atheist.

"I have been persuaded that whatever I deem righteous in my own mind is righteousness."

YHVH said he would write HIS Law, not "a law." That is where "I think we all have our own definition of the law" takes you.

If I decide in my own mind what righteousness is, then I am self-righteous. If I obey YHVH then I am righteous by HIS standard, not mine.

That is the difference between seeking HIS righteousness or seeking our own. Matthew 6:33

Romans 6:15
Name for me a single Christian observance that is not pagan in its origins.

 

[bbyrd009]

Now you are making yourself your own god. YOU are deciding what the Law is.

Jesus obeyed the Torah perfectly. He told His disciples to do the same. Walking as He walked is the outward sign that He is our Lord.
Anything else is just lip service.

1 John 2:1-7
The Way Jesus walked is the Torah.

If not, he would have been a sinner. 1 John 3:4

Following Jesus IS walking according to the Law, not the decrees of men that honor false gods.

Jesus broke most of the ten commandments, at least according to those keepers of Torah
right

 

[Ferris Bueller]

it seems you end up having to do even more, even though there is no law for it

A good example would be Zacchaeus the tax collector. If I'm not mistaken about this, the law only required that he give back what he stole plus a fourth. But in the joy of his salvation he gave back four times what he had stolen.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

it seems you end up having to do even more, even though there is no law for it

I've made the case several times that the law is actually a limiting factor for the people of God, not a liberating one. The law held us at a distance from God. Christ brings us near without limitation.

 

[Happy Trails]

No. Loving according to how God loves defines your God. Jesus said that in the verse I quoted: "As I have loved you...". The world does not love like the Son and the Father love. Not even close. Most Christians don't know this so they think do-good atheists are better at loving than some Christians are.


Well, then you don't believe Christ:

"...no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me." John 15:4​

Yet you claim atheist and false religion 'branches' do bear fruit. Better than Christ's branches even! As I've pointed out, what you actually don't understand is the difference between how God loves and how the self-centric atheist and false religionist loves. That is the fruit the 'branches' of the lost world can not produce, because they are not connected to and nourished by the vine of Christ. (Maybe we'll come back to this 15th chapter of John.)


I understand this perfectly. I expected this very argument to be raised, and this is the verse I was reserving for just such an argument:

"...not as a new commandment to you, but one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another." 2 John 1:5​

It's 'new' in revelation, not in it's appearing (1 John 2:7-8). It's visible with the eyes of the Spirit in this New Covenant, not with the eyes of law in the old covenant. Even though it is, itself, a law. Ironic, isn't it?

You do not have the ability to quantify how someone loves, whether it is godly, or not. "Bearing fruit" is NOT an equivalent to "loving people." That kind of conflation of terms is exactly why Christians are so confused.

Name for me a single Christian observance that is not of pagan origin.

 

[Happy Trails]

Other than the part about the time limit there is no argument here about that, lol!
God would expect nothing less from a disciple of Christ during the time of the law before Christ's crucifixion than to keep the whole law. No letter 'disappeared' from the law until the fulfillment occurred, at which time various laws were in fact laid aside as obsolete and not needed anymore. But until then you did in fact have to obey the whole law as it applied to you. So no argument for the disciples of Christ's day not needing to keep the law is being made.

The Bible does not say ANY of it disappeared. The Bible DOES say that as long as heaven and earth remain, not one jot or tittle will disappear. How do you determine which laws disappeared and which ones didn't, especially since Jesus said NONE of it will disappear?

Every feast of YHVH is a prophetic shadow. (Luke 24:44)
Every modern Christian observance started as a pagan ritual.

 

[Happy Trails]

Well, since the law has not been destroyed by the coming of Christ there's nothing to comment on here except to say the coming of Christ causes some laws (not the ones you listed) to simply not be relevant to the person brought near to God through the New way of faith in Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit. I know you won't accept this, but you should at least give those who don't agree with your view of the law the dignity and respect and courtesy of at least knowing their argument.

Tell me which laws, and why. I think you are bluffing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You do not have the ability to quantify how someone loves, whether it is godly, or not.

You're right. God is the one who quantifies what godly love is, not me, and especially not the atheist who is sure his 'love' is the love that would satisfy the Christian God if he thought that God existed. But God has surely quantified in the scriptures what actually constitutes godly love. Here's another example (I've already given you one):

"27But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return." Luke 6:27-35
​

I think God's love can be summarized in it's unconditional quality. Humans by nature, even the best among us, love conditionally. We love if we feel a person is deserving of it according to the bearing a situation has on us personally.

 

[Happy Trails]

I've made the case several times that the law is actually a limiting factor for the people of God, not a liberating one. The law held us at a distance from God. Christ brings us near without limitation.

That's because you don't what the Law is.
The Law held no one away.

That is all fabrication from Babylon.

The Messiah redeems us from the punishment of the Law. Neither He, nor Peter, nor Paul, or any other NT writer EVER said, "you no longer need to obey the Law."

In Acts 15:19-21 the new converts were told to begin obeying 4 specific laws. That made them eligible to join the Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath to hear the Law of Moses.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"Bearing fruit" is NOT an equivalent to "loving people." That kind of conflation of terms is exactly why Christians are so confused.

Well, I think you're the one who is confused:

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23

"...clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity." Colossians 3:12-14​

How we love people according to the fruit of the Spirit is definitely the fruit spoken about that the Christian bears through Jesus Christ. No fruit ultimately indicates you aren't connected to Jesus Christ and shows you aren't drawing on the life giving sap of the Holy Spirit of the vine. You are a dead, fruitless branch with no life in it. A branch that will be scooped up and thrown into the fire when Christ comes back, because it is dead.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Name for me a single Christian observance that is not of pagan origin.

Trust me, I have no love for the Catholic church, only disdain, but even their observances are based on the observances of the old covenant. For example, the Sunday sabbath draws it's support, right or wrong, from the concept of the eighth day in the appointed festivals in the law. So it certainly has a Biblical origin, not solely a pagan one.

 

[Ziggy]

This is like that strait and narrow path vs, the broad and wide one.

I don't like to admit this but sometimes I feel like I have one foot on both sides of the river.
I literally wrestle in my mind.
It's kind of like the chasm between heaven and hell. Maybe this is the firmament in between.. hmm
Tossing in and out of the water and the fire like a lunatick..

Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son (daughter): for he (she) is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he (she) falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
I just inserted my gender in there so it would fit my own experience.

I do not want to be lukewarm Lord..
Somewhere along the line a side has to be chosen.
Now I can either put all of my faith and trust in the law (broad path) or I can put all my faith and trust in Christ (narrow path)
But this tossing to and fro, just makes me nauseous.

So instead of wrestling and fighting myself, I should just study more to find the right path.
I have either entered into His rest, or I'm still waiting for it.
Just don't let it pass me by.

You ever felt like this?
At some point, there will come a day, when you know without a doubt which way to choose.
Choose to day. Because tomorrow might be too late.
It's a battle that's for sure, but I can assure you, one worth fighting.
Hugs

 

[Happy Trails]

Well, I think you're the one who is confused:

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23

"...clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity." Colossians 3:12-14​

How we treat people according to the fruit of the Spirit is definitely the fruit spoken about that the Christian bears through Jesus Christ. No fruit ultimately indicates you aren't connected to Jesus Christ and shows you aren't drawing on the life giving sap of the Holy Spirit of the vine. You are a dead, fruitless branch with no life in it. A branch that will be scooped up and thrown into the fire when Christ comes back.

You just told me that obeying Jesus' instructions, and the instructions of the God that sent Him is going to cause me to be thrown into a fire.

That is what passes as logic and bearing fruit in the modern Christian world.

 

[Happy Trails]

Jesus broke most of the ten commandments, at least according to those keepers of Torah
right

Jesus NEVER broke one.

He broke the added regulations the Pharisees tried to impose.

If He had broken even ONE, He would have been a sinner.

1 John 3:4

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That's because you don't what the Law is.
The Law held no one away.

That is all fabrication from Babylon.

Friend, you're the one who does not know the law.
The law kept you from partaking of the life blood of the sacrifice. It was poured out on the ground, instead. The law kept you from going behind the curtain in the temple. The law required you to not even touch the mountain where God is, let alone ascend it.

All these prohibitions that held you at a distance from God were taken out of the way, not destroyed, by the new way of faith in Christ. The way which brings us unabashedly and fully into the presence and life of God. A person who has already been brought near to God this way does not have to submit to a law that legislates some level or kind of distance from God. Those laws doesn't apply to him. He doesn't break them. They simply do not apply to him.