Confusion about the Law.

[Happy Trails]

What is the Law?

In the ancient world, national identity was based on a chosen god.

Chemosh was the god of the Moabites, Molech was the deity associated with Ammon (1 Kg 11:7) The Philistines worshiped Dagon. (Judges 16:23)

The distinguishing characteristic of the selected god is the days and rituals that are observed. If you observe Bodhi Day, you are likely a Buddhist. If you observe Ramadan, you are likely a Muslim. A Hindu would observe Rama Navami. A Jew would observe Passover.

The days you observe is how the people that see you identify your religious preference. They observe your respect of specific days as associated with a specific god. That is your witness. There is no ethnic or gender distinction.

To put this is secular terms, the US Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. The Torah is the Constitution for God's people. That Law of Liberty was given to the children of Israel. It was also given to the rest of the mixed races of people who left Egypt with Israel. God said “the same Law applies to the native born AND the stranger that lives among you. If you obey it, I will bless you. If you disobey it, I will curse you.”

If I obey God's Law, he promises to bless me. If I disobey his Law, he will curse me.

Fifteen hundred years after the Law was given, Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the Law. That means, if we disobey God, he will not curse us. On the other hand, if we obey him, God will continue to bless us.

Galatians 3:21-25
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(If there were anything in the Law you could perform to erase your past sins, then righteousness would be attained through the Law.)

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(The Law identifies all of us as sinners. Only by belief in Jesus can one receive the promise.)

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(Before we received this faith, we were protected by the the Law. It kept us from sin until Jesus was revealed through it.)

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(The Law was the written instructions that enabled us to identify the Messiah.)

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(We can now observe what Jesus did. HE NEVER BROKE A SINGLE LAW. He challenged the religious authorities of His day. He responded to Satan AND the religious leaders with “it is written.” That's what “following Jesus” is.)

The Law is the instructions in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

It tells us how to oppose those who would try to control us with their man-made doctrine. It is how we defend ourselves against the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Nike is the Greek goddess of victory. Laity is the common people. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans is “victory over the common people.” Jesus hates that. Revelation 2:6

The Law is the revelation that Jesus is who He says He is. He is revealed throughout the Law and the Prophets. (Luke 24:44)

The Law is the authentication of the Messiah. The Law is the documentation of the evidence for Jesus being Messiah. The Law is what Jesus came to fulfill. The more one knows about the Law, the more they know about Jesus. It is truly that simple.

The Law:
Observe THESE days, not THOSE days.
Eat THIS, not THAT.
Have sexual relations with THIS person, not THOSE persons.
Be honest and kind to everyone, including the heathens.

Romans 6:15 The Law I observe tells all who see me who my Master is. Am I obeying God's Law, like Jesus did? Or, am I observing man-made laws? One set of laws leads to death. The other leads to righteousness.

 

[Bob Estey]

What is the Law?

In the ancient world, national identity was based on a chosen god.

Chemosh was the god of the Moabites, Molech was the deity associated with Ammon (1 Kg 11:7) The Philistines worshiped Dagon. (Judges 16:23)

The distinguishing characteristic of the selected god is the days and rituals that are observed. If you observe Bodhi Day, you are likely a Buddhist. If you observe Ramadan, you are likely a Muslim. A Hindu would observe Rama Navami. A Jew would observe Passover.

The days you observe is how the people that see you identify your religious preference. They observe your respect of specific days as associated with a specific god. That is your witness. There is no ethnic or gender distinction.

To put this is secular terms, the US Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. The Torah is the Constitution for God's people. That Law of Liberty was given to the children of Israel. It was also given to the rest of the mixed races of people who left Egypt with Israel. God said “the same Law applies to the native born AND the stranger that lives among you. If you obey it, I will bless you. If you disobey it, I will curse you.”

If I obey God's Law, he promises to bless me. If I disobey his Law, he will curse me.

Fifteen hundred years after the Law was given, Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the Law. That means, if we disobey God, he will not curse us. On the other hand, if we obey him, God will continue to bless us.

Galatians 3:21-25
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(If there were anything in the Law you could perform to erase your past sins, then righteousness would be attained through the Law.)

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(The Law identifies all of us as sinners. Only by belief in Jesus can one receive the promise.)

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(Before we received this faith, we were protected by the the Law. It kept us from sin until Jesus was revealed through it.)

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(The Law was the written instructions that enabled us to identify the Messiah.)

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(We can now observe what Jesus did. HE NEVER BROKE A SINGLE LAW. He challenged the religious authorities of His day. He responded to Satan AND the religious leaders with “it is written.” That's what “following Jesus” is.)

The Law is the instructions in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

It tells us how to oppose those who would try to control us with their man-made doctrine. It is how we defend ourselves against the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Nike is the Greek goddess of victory. Laity is the common people. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans is “victory over the common people.” Jesus hates that. Revelation 2:6

The Law is the revelation that Jesus is who He says He is. He is revealed throughout the Law and the Prophets. (Luke 24:44)

The Law is the authentication of the Messiah. The Law is the documentation of the evidence for Jesus being Messiah. The Law is what Jesus came to fulfill. The more one knows about the Law, the more they know about Jesus. It is truly that simple.

The Law:
Observe THESE days, not THOSE days.
Eat THIS, not THAT.
Have sexual relations with THIS person, not THOSE persons.
Be honest and kind to everyone, including the heathens.

Romans 6:15 The Law I observe tells all who see me who my Master is. Am I obeying God's Law, like Jesus did? Or, am I observing man-made laws? One set of laws leads to death. The other leads to righteousness.

I think we all have our own definition of the law. Some would include everything God or Jesus said in the Bible and conclude it cannot be obeyed. Others, like myself, would define the law as the commandments – and there are very few of those.

The law is important to me as it keeps me out of trouble, when I succeed in obeying it. This passage says it best, perhaps:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33 RSV

 

[Robert Gwin]

What is the Law?

In the ancient world, national identity was based on a chosen god.

Chemosh was the god of the Moabites, Molech was the deity associated with Ammon (1 Kg 11:7) The Philistines worshiped Dagon. (Judges 16:23)

The distinguishing characteristic of the selected god is the days and rituals that are observed. If you observe Bodhi Day, you are likely a Buddhist. If you observe Ramadan, you are likely a Muslim. A Hindu would observe Rama Navami. A Jew would observe Passover.

The days you observe is how the people that see you identify your religious preference. They observe your respect of specific days as associated with a specific god. That is your witness. There is no ethnic or gender distinction.

To put this is secular terms, the US Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. The Torah is the Constitution for God's people. That Law of Liberty was given to the children of Israel. It was also given to the rest of the mixed races of people who left Egypt with Israel. God said “the same Law applies to the native born AND the stranger that lives among you. If you obey it, I will bless you. If you disobey it, I will curse you.”

If I obey God's Law, he promises to bless me. If I disobey his Law, he will curse me.

Fifteen hundred years after the Law was given, Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the Law. That means, if we disobey God, he will not curse us. On the other hand, if we obey him, God will continue to bless us.

Galatians 3:21-25
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(If there were anything in the Law you could perform to erase your past sins, then righteousness would be attained through the Law.)

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(The Law identifies all of us as sinners. Only by belief in Jesus can one receive the promise.)

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(Before we received this faith, we were protected by the the Law. It kept us from sin until Jesus was revealed through it.)

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(The Law was the written instructions that enabled us to identify the Messiah.)

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(We can now observe what Jesus did. HE NEVER BROKE A SINGLE LAW. He challenged the religious authorities of His day. He responded to Satan AND the religious leaders with “it is written.” That's what “following Jesus” is.)

The Law is the instructions in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

It tells us how to oppose those who would try to control us with their man-made doctrine. It is how we defend ourselves against the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Nike is the Greek goddess of victory. Laity is the common people. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans is “victory over the common people.” Jesus hates that. Revelation 2:6

The Law is the revelation that Jesus is who He says He is. He is revealed throughout the Law and the Prophets. (Luke 24:44)

The Law is the authentication of the Messiah. The Law is the documentation of the evidence for Jesus being Messiah. The Law is what Jesus came to fulfill. The more one knows about the Law, the more they know about Jesus. It is truly that simple.

The Law:
Observe THESE days, not THOSE days.
Eat THIS, not THAT.
Have sexual relations with THIS person, not THOSE persons.
Be honest and kind to everyone, including the heathens.

Romans 6:15 The Law I observe tells all who see me who my Master is. Am I obeying God's Law, like Jesus did? Or, am I observing man-made laws? One set of laws leads to death. The other leads to righteousness.

Jesus was under the law given through Moses Happy, we however are under the law of the Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

My hope, daily, is that people would look at me and say, "oh, I see you are circumcised in the putting off of the deeds of the flesh, and that you have entered into sabbath rest from your evil work of the flesh. You worship the God of Israel."

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In the ancient world, national identity was based on a chosen god.

Chemosh was the god of the Moabites, Molech was the deity associated with Ammon (1 Kg 11:7) The Philistines worshiped Dagon. (Judges 16:23)

The distinguishing characteristic of the selected god is the days and rituals that are observed. If you observe Bodhi Day, you are likely a Buddhist. If you observe Ramadan, you are likely a Muslim. A Hindu would observe Rama Navami. A Jew would observe Passover.

The days you observe is how the people that see you identify your religious preference. They observe your respect of specific days as associated with a specific god. That is your witness. There is no ethnic or gender distinction.

That's what cold dead religion is all about: "We worship according to the truth in the one and only approved time and methodology that God demands, and you don't." That's what fractious, hateful, murderous 'religion' is all about. And it proves nothing about whether you actually really do know God and are approved by him, or not.

Distinguish yourself from that mad world of cold dead 'religion' and be like Christ in character.

"17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." Romans 14:17-18​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This is the law that shows what God you serve and what 'nation' you belong to:

34 A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35​

That's the 'law' that shows what God you belong to.

The Law I observe tells all who see me who my Master is. Am I obeying God's Law, like Jesus did?

 

[Happy Trails]

I think we all have our own definition of the law.

That is exactly the problem.

We are told exactly what the Law is.

However, because people want to quote the OT for the blessings while ignoring the instructions, they feel they can define the Law any way they want.

Judges 17:6
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

 

[Happy Trails]

Jesus was under the law given through Moses Happy, we however are under the law of the Christ.

"Under the Law" means "subject to the curse of disobedience."

Jesus redeemed us from the curse. Now, we can only be blessed by obedience.

Loving God IS keeping his Commandments. If you don't love God, don't obey him.

That will be your witness about Jehovah.

 

[Happy Trails]

My hope, daily, is that people would look at me and say, "oh, I see you are circumcised in the putting off of the deeds of the flesh, and that you have entered into sabbath rest from your evil work of the flesh. You worship the God of Israel."

The deeds of the flesh are the exact opposite of the Law.

The prophetic shadow of the rest we have yet to enter is the Sabbath.

2 Peter 3:8. The 1,000 year reign of Messiah is the fulfillment of the prophetic week. From Adam, we have enjoyed almost 6,000 years of human history. The Sabbath is coming soon.

Moses was prevented from entering the promised land because he destroyed the prophetic shadow of Messiah.

 

[Happy Trails]

This is the law that shows what God you serve and what 'nation' you belong to:

34 A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35​

That's the 'law' that shows what God you belong to.

So, just being a loving person defines your god. I know atheists who are LOT more loving than any Christian I know. I certainly know Buddhists who are. By your definition they are more Christian than Christians.

That commandment wasn't "new" in the English sense. It was new in the Hebrew sense. It was "renewed."
Here is where Jesus got that Commandment. Leviticus 19:17, Leviticus 19:34

 

[Happy Trails]

This is the law that shows what God you serve and what 'nation' you belong to:

34 A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35​

That's the 'law' that shows what God you belong to.

Now you are making yourself your own god. YOU are deciding what the Law is.

Jesus obeyed the Torah perfectly. He told His disciples to do the same. Walking as He walked is the outward sign that He is our Lord.
Anything else is just lip service.

1 John 2:1-7
The Way Jesus walked is the Torah.

If not, he would have been a sinner. 1 John 3:4

Following Jesus IS walking according to the Law, not the decrees of men that honor false gods.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Now you are making yourself your own god. YOU are deciding what the Law is.

I quoted Jesus himself.

Jesus obeyed the Torah perfectly. He told His disciples to do the same. Walking as He walked is the outward sign that He is our Lord.
Anything else is just lip service.

During the time of the law I would expect Jesus' disciples to do nothing less. But now, in this New Covenant of faith, not law, there are some laws we simply do not have to literally keep anymore. And not because the coming of Christ destroyed them, casting them down. But because they find their fulfillment in the finished work of Christ such that no further fulfillment is necessary.

 

[Happy Trails]

I think we all have our own definition of the law. Some would include everything God or Jesus said in the Bible and conclude it cannot be obeyed. Others, like myself, would define the law as the commandments – and there are very few of those.

The law is important to me as it keeps me out of trouble, when I succeed in obeying it. This passage says it best, perhaps:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33 RSV

If YHVH's law is written on someone's heart, they would have the desire to obey it. They would not constantly try to find loopholes so that they could make up their own law.

Let's back up 2 verses:

Jeremiah 31:31
There are no Gentiles in the new covenant. One is either grafted into Israel, or they are a heathen.

That's what that whole "grafted in" thing is about.

Ephesians 2:11-19
In time past we were called Gentiles. We were strangers to the promise. Now we are fellow citizens with the saints. The saints are Israel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, just being a loving person defines your god.

No. Loving according to how God loves defines your God. Jesus said that in the verse I quoted: "As I have loved you...". The world does not love like the Son and the Father love. Not even close. Most Christians don't know this so they think do-good atheists are better at loving than some Christians are.

I know atheists who are LOT more loving than any Christian I know. I certainly know Buddhists who are. By your definition they are more Christian than Christians.

Well, then you don't believe Christ:

"...no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me." John 15:4​

Yet you claim atheist and false religion 'branches' do bear fruit. Better than Christ's branches even! As I've pointed out, what you actually don't understand is the difference between how God loves and how the self-centric atheist and false religionist loves. That is the fruit the 'branches' of the lost world can not produce, because they are not connected to and nourished by the vine of Christ. (Maybe we'll come back to this 15th chapter of John.)

That commandment wasn't "new" in the English sense. It was new in the Hebrew sense. It was "renewed."

I understand this perfectly. I expected this very argument to be raised, and this is the verse I was reserving for just such an argument:

"...not as a new commandment to you, but one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another." 2 John 1:5​

It's 'new' in revelation, not in it's appearing (1 John 2:7-8). It's visible with the eyes of the Spirit in this New Covenant, not with the eyes of law in the old covenant. Even though it is, itself, a law. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Bob Estey]

That is exactly the problem.

We are told exactly what the Law is.

However, because people want to quote the OT for the blessings while ignoring the instructions, they feel they can define the Law any way they want.

Judges 17:6
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Some people say there are 600+ commandments, others 10, others 2. How do you define the law?

 

[Bob Estey]

If YHVH's law is written on someone's heart, they would have the desire to obey it. They would not constantly try to find loopholes so that they could make up their own law.

Let's back up 2 verses:

Jeremiah 31:31
There are no Gentiles in the new covenant. One is either grafted into Israel, or they are a heathen.

That's what that whole "grafted in" thing is about.

Ephesians 2:11-19
In time past we were called Gentiles. We were strangers to the promise. Now we are fellow citizens with the saints. The saints are Israel.

I do not understand you when you say, "If YHVH's law is written on someone's heart, they would have the desire to obey it. They would not constantly try to find loopholes so that they could make up their own law."

What I do understand is that when the Lord wrote a law on my heart, and I obeyed, my life was transformed into something indescribably beautiful.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Distinguish yourself from that mad world of cold dead 'religion' and be like Christ in character.

Edit:

"...Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World..."

You might have to be over fifty to get it, lol.

 

[Happy Trails]

I quoted Jesus himself.


During the time of the law I would expect Jesus' disciples to do nothing less. But now, in this New Covenant of faith, not law, there are some laws we simply do not have to literally keep anymore. And not because the coming of Christ destroyed them, casting them down. But because they find their fulfillment in the finished work of Christ such that no further fulfillment is necessary.

Jesus said, specifically, He was NOT coming to destroy the Law. He told His disciples to obey the smallest details of it, and put no time limit on it.

If the Law has been destroyed then adultery is no longer a sin. Homosexuality is no longer a sin. In fact, nothing would prevent you from attending a Satanic ritual.

"Fulfilling the Law is:
Exodus 12:3, the selection of the Passover Lamb, fulfilled by Matthew 21:9.
Leviticus 23:5, the rehearsal of the events of Exodus 12, fulfilled by the crucifixion and that fulfillment confirmed by 1 Corinthians 5:7.
Leviticus 23:10 fulfilled by Matthew 27:52.
Leviticus 23:11-12 described in John 20:17
The High Priest offers the first fruits offering. The saints that rose from the graves that day were the first fruits.
Leviticus 23:16 is the Day the Holy Spirit is poured out.

That suggests "following the Spirit" doesn't mean "follow whatever comes to mind."

Without a Law to fulfill, any impostor would have just as legitimate a claim as Jesus.

Fulfilling the Law doesn't mean "now I don't have to obey it." NOTHING in the Bible suggests that. That is a doctrine from the pit of hell.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Acts 28:23
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

The "mystery of iniquity" is the teaching that disobeying God is somehow what he wants us to do.

It is insanity of the worst sort. It is going to have eternal consequences.

Jeremiah 16:19

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Some people say there are 600+ commandments, others 10, others 2. How do you define the law?

I'm told there are 618.
But we don't have to literally keep all 618 because most simply do not apply to us.

So this is not a matter of keeping all the law vs. not keeping all the law. It's a matter of which laws we are to keep, and which ones we don't have to.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus said, specifically, He was NOT coming to destroy the Law. He told His disciples to obey the smallest details of it, and put no time limit on it.

Other than the part about the time limit there is no argument here about that, lol!
God would expect nothing less from a disciple of Christ during the time of the law before Christ's crucifixion than to keep the whole law. No letter 'disappeared' from the law until the fulfillment occurred, at which time various laws were in fact laid aside as obsolete and not needed anymore. But until then you did in fact have to obey the whole law as it applied to you. So no argument for the disciples of Christ's day not needing to keep the law is being made.