Christians are not under the New Covenant

[Moriah's Song]

the Messiah produced the Church.

Again, the Messiah didn't "really" produce the church because even Acts says that "the church" consists of "God's chosen people of ALL AGES, from Genesis to Revelations.

The "church of Christ" was never actually born, it always was. All verse 26 says is that "they met with the church." How does one meet with a "church?" You can't; you meet with "God's remnant/his people." Therefore, the only thing that the verse says is that "they were for the first time called Christians."

Act 11:26...and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians.

Act 14:27...And when they arrived, they gathered the church together and declared all that God had done with them, and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.​

 

[Moriah's Song]

the church is not the sun, moon and 12 stars.

The stars; i.e. the "church" represents the 12 tribes of the OT as well as the NT of the 12 apostles tribes/christians.

 

[keithr]

Again, the Messiah didn't "really" produce the church because even Acts says that "the church" consists of "God's chosen people of ALL AGES, from Genesis to Revelations.

Where in Acts does it say that?

You could not become a member of the Church, and be a Christian, until Jesus had started his ministry. As Jesus said, Matthew 11:11-13 (WEB):

(11) Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.
(12) From the days of John the Baptizer until now, the Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
(13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.​

 

[Moriah's Song]

Do you have a brain?

This speaks for you, not for me.

 

[Moriah's Song]

You could not become a member of the Church, and be a Christian, until Jesus had started his ministry.

I can understand how you would believe that because it seems you don't have the proper understanding of how God's plan from the creation of Adam to the end of this last age when Judgement Day arrives and eternity begins. It's not a chopped up plan like "millennialists" try to make it out to be. God has a plan and it will not fail no matter how much Satan tries to make it fail. On the day of Pentecost, thousands of Jews accepted Jesus as their Savior. Although they did not use the term "Christian" yet, they were already a member of the "body of Christ." Today we "join a church" and agree to support that church. Those on the day of Pentecost didn't "join a church" and yet they met together as the "ekklesia" (church) - - - same people (Jewish believers in Christ.) The Jews of Pentecost were the "foundation" of our "Christian church" today --- that "tree" that never really stopped growing with "all God's people."

ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

STRONGS G1577:
ἐκκλησία, ἐκκλεσιας, ἡ (from ἔκκλητος called out or forth, and this from ἐκκαλέω); properly, a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place; an assembly; so used
1. among the Greeks from Thucydides (cf. Herodotus 3, 142) down, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of council for the purpose of deliberating: Acts 19:39.
2. in the Sept. often equivalent to קָהָל, the assembly of the Israelites, Judges 21:8; 1 Chronicles 29:1, etc., especially when gathered for sacred purposes, Deuteronomy 31:30 (Deuteronomy 32:1); Joshua 8:35 (Joshua 9:8), etc.; in the N. T.

 

[Truther]

The stars; i.e. the "church" represents the 12 tribes of the OT as well as the NT of the 12 apostles tribes/christians.

Did Paul or someone dream a dream that the 12 stars are the 12 apostle's or are you dreaming that up?

Are the sun and moon also the Father and Mary?

 

[Truther]

This speaks for you, not for me.

Good morning.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Did Paul or someone dream a dream that the 12 stars are the 12 apostle's or are you dreaming that up?

Rev 12:1...And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Rev 21:12...It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed;

Rev 21:14...And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
​

Both the OT 12 tribes of the church in the wilderness and the NT apostles of the NT church combined of Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Truther]

Rev 12:1...And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Rev 21:12...It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed;

Rev 21:14...And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
​

Both the OT 12 tribes of the church in the wilderness and the NT apostles of the NT church combined of Jews and Gentiles.

Who are the sun and moon?

 

[Moriah's Song]

Who are the sun and moon

It is the picture of the bride, the Church. The beams of the divine glory clothe her; she has caught—like Moses—the radiance of her Lord, whose countenance was as the sun (Revelation 1:16); the moon is beneath her feet; she rises superior to all change, and lays all lesser lights of knowledge under tribute; she is crowned with a crown of twelve stars: the illustrious members of the Church (twelve being the representative number in Old Testament as well as New Testament times) form her crown of rejoicing in the day of Christ.

 

[Truther]

It is the picture of the bride, the Church. The beams of the divine glory clothe her; she has caught—like Moses—the radiance of her Lord, whose countenance was as the sun (Revelation 1:16); the moon is beneath her feet; she rises superior to all change, and lays all lesser lights of knowledge under tribute; she is crowned with a crown of twelve stars: the illustrious members of the Church (twelve being the representative number in Old Testament as well as New Testament times) form her crown of rejoicing in the day of Christ.

Like this?...

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations....


The church brought forth Christ?

 

[Truther]

Is preterism worth this kind of teaching?

 

[Moriah's Song]

Is preterism worth this kind of teaching?

I don't understand how you get preterism out of 12:1???

 

[Truther]

I don't understand how you get preterism out of 12:1???

You are the preterist espousing Christ was brought forth from the church via the passage.

I just pointed out what preterisms replacement theology looks like.

Trippy, huh?

 

[keithr]

keithr said:
You could not become a member of the Church, and be a Christian, until Jesus had started his ministry.
​

I can understand how you would believe that because it seems you don't have the proper understanding of how God's plan from the creation of Adam to the end of this last age when Judgement Day arrives and eternity begins. ... On the day of Pentecost, thousands of Jews accepted Jesus as their Savior.

I think you'll find that the day of Pentecost that you're referring to was after Jesus started his ministry. I don't see how that indicates that what I stated was incorrect!

 

[Moriah's Song]

The church brought forth Christ?

Christ brought forth the OT Jewish remenant and made the NT church "one body in Christ." (Eph 2)
1Co 12:27-28...Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles,..."

A repost of 10 Rev 12:1 Commentators who agree that "the woman = the church"

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
It is the picture of the bride, the Church.

Benson Commentary
“St. John resumes his subject from the beginning, and represents the church (Revelation 12:1-2) as a woman, and a mother bearing children unto Christ.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
12:1-6 The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The woman, beyond all question, represents the church.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
1. This episode (Re 12:1-15:8) describes in detail the persecution of Israel and the elect Church by the beast, which had been summarily noticed....As new Jerusalem (called also "the woman," or "wife," Re 21:2, 9-12), with its twelve gates, is the exalted and transfigured Church, so the woman with the twelve stars is the Church militant. Revelation 12:1,2 A woman clothed with the sun travaileth,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
...and the church apostolical is here called "a woman", because the church was not now in its infancy,

Geneva Study Bible
Of which two the beginning of the Church is described in this chapter, and the progress of it in the chapter following.

Meyer's NT Commentary
Whether and in what way the Church is to be understood by the woman, cannot be inferred until the close of the entire vision,[3022] since the particular points of the text condition the meaning of the whole. The emblematic description (περιβεβλημένη

δώδεκα) represents the woman who is just about bearing, Revelation 12:2, in a heavenly brilliancy reminding us of the manifestation of Christ[3023] and of God.[3024]

Pulpit Commentary
The woman, the Church, though on earth, is nevertheless, by virtue of her union with Christ, in heaven." A woman. The woman is undoubtedly the Church of God;

Vincent's Word Studies
The symbol is usually taken to represent the Church.

 

[Moriah's Song]

I think you'll find that the day of Pentecost that you're referring to was after Jesus started his ministry.

What you say here is true. However, Jesus' ministry was still in the OT period/age because the New Covenant age was not a reality until Christ died, arose and anscended into heaven. Fifty days later was the Day of Pentencost and of which thousands of Jews believed Peter's sermon and where we saw the "the OT Jews coming into the New Testament body of Christ" that began with Adam and Eve, and will continue until the Second Coming of Christ on the Day of Judgement at the end of this present age.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Jesus will return to save every human in Israel and Judah.

This simply is not going to happen Truther no matter how many times you say we are delerious! NEVER since the day Adam was created did God save anyone that did not beieve in Him for their salvation! There will be NO NATIONAL salvation of every human in Israel and Judah. Nowhere in the NT can you find anything that will support that view..."all Israel will be saved including nonbelievers!"

What you do is wrong in the sense that you do not include the verse prior to 11:26 that says "...a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,....and so all Israel will be saved"

What you yet to grasp is that Israel was always intended to be OT + NT "people/a remnant; not a national all inclusive people of both unbelieving Jews and non-believing Jews.

That promise was to Abraham which is said that his "offspring would be as many as the stars of heaven" - meaning uncountable. That would have to include both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[amigo de christo]

You are the preterist espousing Christ was brought forth from the church via the passage.

I just pointed out what preterisms replacement theology looks like.

Trippy, huh?

Christ indeed did not come forth of the Church . But rather the CHURCH came forth from HIM .
Jesus told the samareitan woman that salvation was of the jews . MEANING SIMPLY
HE came forth , according to the flesh from the jews and the jews held torah .
My advice , NEVER HEED THE CC . As i am sure you dont . I say it anyway just as a reminder .
And do be on gaurd with many within the protestant realm as well . We are witnessing
the largest falling away going viral and sadly its coming from WITHIN CHRISTENDOM itself .
THE CC was the one who opened dialgoue between all religoins
SHE is the one who has , as did the jews , turned the house into a den of theives .
ITS all coming to pass . As in the song of MOSES . The jews did in large turn away from GOD
but not all , there was a remnant who had faith IN CHRIST .
NOW its even worse . MANY within christendom , now have fallen far away
and IN JESUS NAME , preach a deadly lie unto the masses that is uniting all religons and all of christendom to be as one .
RIGHT UNDER THE HARLOT , and the beast , and the dragon . AS it was foretold in the song of MOSES
that many jews would fall away so too did paul write about a great falling away , even within christendom .
ITS heading fast to the head of all evil . TIMES will get much worse and very fast . As inquity is rising fast to the full .
LET the lambs CLING TO CHRIST . THE TRUE ISRAEL are those OF CHRIST . NEVER FORGET THAT . Now march
on IN THE GLORIOUS LORD and let us POINT TO JESUS as the only means and only NAME whereby any jew or gentile can be saved .
WHILE WE STILL HAVE TIME TO DO SO .

 

[Moriah's Song]

THE TRUE ISRAEL are those OF CHRIST . NEVER FORGET THAT

THE TRUE ISRAEL are those OF CHRIST . NEVER FORGET THAT

THE TRUE ISRAEL are those OF CHRIST . NEVER FORGET THAT

AMEN!