Christians are not sinners
- Thread starter robert derrick
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Romans 6:5-9 KJV
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Much love!
There is no "requirement" that Christians commit sins. Who thinks that way?
We've been freed from sin being crucified with Christ, and the prevalence of sin in the minds and hearts and actions of God's people evidences the lack of faith in our freedom from sin, typically incited by legalistic thinking and living.
When we understand that we are no longer condemned for sin, we trust God freely, standing in His grace, walking in His Spirit, doing His works.
Much love!
We've been freed from sin being crucified with Christ, and the prevalence of sin in the minds and hearts and actions of God's people evidences the lack of faith in our freedom from sin, typically incited by legalistic thinking and living.
When we understand that we are no longer condemned for sin, we trust God freely, standing in His grace, walking in His Spirit, doing His works.
Much love!
That is mixing sins against God with human mistakes of mortality.
I agree with the first part:
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Not the second:
Anything not perfectly done falls short of God and His glory.
Tripping on a stone or forgetting where your keys are, these are the continued errors in the flesh that plague every all human beings and sons of God on earth, and will not end until the resurrection of the spiritual body.
That is what this whole thread is about.
Mistakes are not sins, and sins are not mistakes.
All Scriptural sin is unrighteousness, transgression of the law, and of the devil.
Therefore, Scriptural sinlessness is the absence of committing sins of unrighteous transgression of the devil against God and one's own soul, which is exactly what we are commanded to depart from. that we may become sons of God on earth.
Christian sinners have watered down sins be called 'mistakes', and have demonized righteous blameless living as boasts of 'sinlessness'.
In that regard then, our boast is in Christ Jesus, who has made us free from the law of sin and death, to let not sin reign over our mortal bodies,and no more be called sinners but saints.
What Christian sinners call 'mistakes' are in fact their sins and trespasses, such as drunkenness, adultery, lying, profane speech, thefts, lusting in heart and vanity of mind, deceiving themselves and others.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
This is a two part statement: all have sinned, which is transgression against God. And all have made the common mistakes of humanity, which comes short of the glory of God.
Your definition of not falling short of God's glory is to have no sin, to have been perfected, to no longer be in 'error' at all: to no longer even make mistakes, which have nothing to do with sin, because Scripture does not call it sin. To be a forgetful hearer of the word? Yes. But to forget what time it is? No.
Some believed themselves to be perfected without sin and without mistakes, and taught the resurrection was past.
I have known such as those: they are perfectionists. The ceased from sins and mistakes. And by all appearances they had. However, they became proud of heart in the ministry, and though their outward appearance was perfect in holiness and their business was without error nor mistake, their hearts had indeed become as brute beasts, past feeling, full of covetousness to merchandise the sheep.
Saints are Scripturally sinless, so long as we guard our hearts from lust, and keep ourselves walking in the faith, so that the wicked one cannot touch us. He fires his arrows daily, but is on the defensive without the camp, and outside the door of fellowship with Jesus in the heart, where the Light shines without darkness.
If we sin, it is only because we allow lust and thought for sin to take root again in the heart, but if we continue the good fight of the Spirit and power of life to chase away all such fowl birds of the air, as Abraham did from his pure sacrifice to God, then we will never fall and commit sinful transgression against the law of the Spirit.
The perfectionists I speak of did allow lust in the heart, but not for women and wine, but for souls in pursuit of 'success' in the ministry of Christ. They turned the Father's business into the people business for power and profit.
Though we have no lust within us, we all still have sin with us to fight at the door:
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Nothing has changed with God's fellowship for man: so long as we remain in the flesh we have a fight on our hands to continue to the end. So long as continue in well-doing to endure temptation and overcome all sins of the flesh, then our fellowship is with Jesus Christ in the Light.
Sinlessness is to be blameless in the law of Christ inwardly and outwardly. The error of the Jews was seeking sinless righteousness outwardly in the law of Moses, but not inwardly with the faith of Abraham.
I am not a committer of sins by the power and faith of Jesus, and I fight daily in heart and mind to remain so, but we all fall short of the glory of God in the common mistakes of mortality.
In that regard, we are all human. But Christian sinners claiming the common depravity of being human sinners, are open hypocrites going on still in their sins and trespasses.
I am humble and not proud, because God and I both know the fight I must do daily to keep lust from nesting in my heart again.
I am pure in heart and sound of mind by the grace of God, and like any other saint on earth, I must fight daily to keep it so.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
If you are of the same mind in these things, then amen brother Marks, because I certainly would take your word for it. Who are we to judge one another's testimony in Christ? it's just that on several occasions, you sure don't talk like it. Maybe, you just don't know how to frame these things accurately.
My soul depended on doing so for many years, after leaving my former 'leaders' and fellow laborers of ministry.
It's one of two things.
It's either sinful double mindedness of Romans 7, where lust and thoughts for sins are entertained and acted upon to do them.
Or, it's the normal fight of the saints, to chase away all such thoughts of lust and sin, that we may only keep that which is in obedience to Christ.
And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not. And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.
The former is partial sacrifice of one's cross, the latter is keeping the old man crucified.
It's not humanist 'positive thinking', nor is it professional discipline, but rather is purifying the heart and keeping the mind clean for the sake of salvation and fellowship with Jesus Christ as sons of God.
Only the latter will be made in His likeness of resurrected spiritual body at His appearing, who did go on to the perfecting of Romans 8.
Those happily stuck in Romans 7 'celebrating' grace, will be appointed to wrath of the hypocrites.
It's one thing to know wretched double mindedness, which no doubt Paul and any other Christian's such as ourselves have experienced, but it is another thing entirely to make a lifetime doctrine and goal of Christianity out of it.
I don't think you are understanding me.
I see all of human behavior and thought as arising from one of two sources, either the fleshy life of a man, or the spiritual life of a man who is reborn. That which arises from the fleshy life is sin, and that which arises from the spiritual life is not.
Flesh, or spirit.
I'm not talking about hitting your thumb with a nail, that's a mistake. But cursing because of it is sin. Railing in your mind against that happening is sin.
The one who is only fleshy cannot please God, remaining forever hostile to God. The one who walks in the Spirit does not do the works of the flesh. Works of the Spirit = works of righteousness, works of the flesh = sin. The flesh serves itself.
Much love!
Scriptural sinlessness MUST be not doing what Scripture calls sin. If you know the good to do and don't do it, that is sin. All that is not of faith is sin.
Walking to the store outside of trusting in Jesus is, according to God's Own definition, it is sin. We are to live entirely in faith and love, entirely!
ALL that is not of faith . . . ANY good left undone . . . These are sin. We can attempt to redefine sin according to our own ideas, "breaking one of the big 10", or what have you, but God leaves no stone unturned. All that is not of faith, Any good undone.
So let's not minimize what is and isn't sin. If you do something outside of faith and love, or you fail to act from faith and love, that is sin.
It's one thing to carry a list of rule in your mind and congratulate yourself for adhering to it, but it's fully another to live out faith and love at all times.
The one man says, I fail to maintain my trust and love at all times, so, Yes, I commit sins. Another man says, I don't murder, I don't steal, so No, I'm sinless.
Much love!
I think the watering down is in the definition of what sin includes, in order to self-justify.
But you aren't suggesting, are you, that you can have "blameless righteousness" without sinlessness, are you? How is that "demonizing?" Seriously!
Much love!
Whoa!
You really don't understand what I've been saying to you. I'll reconsider how to start at the beginning.
Much love!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Christians are not sinners
hmmmm, that's a really long bow considering some of the posts I read here!
hmmmm, that's a really long bow considering some of the posts I read here!
Taken
Well-Known Member
Yes. Your example of husbands And wives...
And a man and God...
Faith...when WITH only One WITH ONE.
* Faith-FULL...when a husband & wife By their “own power” remains only One WITH One.
* Faith-FULL...when a man REMAINS Faith-FULL to God By, Through, Of “Gods POWER”...
with-“IN” the man....That Power, IS Christ.
^ ie Converted...can never Fall Away From Faith-Fullness...ie OSAS
* A man Having Faith, By His Own Power to keep his faith, one man WITH One God is also (Vulnerable to the influence of World Evil and Wickedness)...and kept having Faith to God By His Own Power....<WITH> God...CAN fall away....
^ * Tasting...the Word of God
Until IF and When that man Becomes Made Converted....BY the mans Heartful Confession and Gods Works....Made and Kept<WITH and IN>By Gods Power...Can never fall away.
Eating...the Word of God
^ * Eating the Word of God
I do not see a problem.
I see men hearing, (enlightenment), following, believing, (Receiving Measures Of Faith), <- ie partaking of the Holy Spirit... then Deflecting AWAY from God. And multiple Warnings, OF Cunning Evil spirits AND wicked men OF the world, Whose Agenda is precisely TO convince the World Population, there IS no God.
Paying Attention:
Remove God from Homes, From Schools, From Society, From Governing Authorities; precisely From the Ears Of young children...
Generation after Generation.
* We use to Seat Governing Authority SERVANTS in such positions who Were Godly...and Now? The Trend is to Seat “Dictatorial so called LEADERS”...who proclaim Themselves with Cunning Flowery Words, THE “Saviors and Safety Keepers OF the World”.
Heb 6:
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Rom 5:
[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
Taken said:
Tasting and Eating are Two completely Different things.
Partaking of the Holy Spirit, is simply revealing God has Given a Spiritual Gift to a man.
God Does Give Particular Spiritual Gifts TO: the Saved and UN-Saved men.
The GIFT of Salvation is a Particular Gift Bought and Paid For, By Jesus’ blood and bodily death For All men.
The GIFT is Already Every mans.
Does God Force - Give - His GIFT of Salvation to Every man....WITHOUT that mans CONSENT? No.
Receiving Gods Gift of Salvation requires Every individual To Take His Offered Gift.
Scripture reveals the WAY for a man to Receive, Take, Have, Once and Forever Gods Gift of Salvation.
Remember the Offering of the Fruit Of The Tree Of Life, Given Adam and Eve? And what did they have to do to Receive that Gift?
“Reach out and take AND eat that Gift”;
they didn’t.
Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Men TAKE Gods Gifts...His Word...taste it, follow, can stop at any time.
While they are “hearing, learning, Tasting”...
Gods Spirit IS “WITH” that man.
Once a man “EATS” the Word of God...
Gods Spirit IS “WITHIN” that man.
Glory to God,
Taken
Tasting and Eating are Two completely Different things.
Partaking of the Holy Spirit, is simply revealing God has Given a Spiritual Gift to a man.
God Does Give Particular Spiritual Gifts TO: the Saved and UN-Saved men.
The GIFT of Salvation is a Particular Gift Bought and Paid For, By Jesus’ blood and bodily death For All men.
The GIFT is Already Every mans.
Does God Force - Give - His GIFT of Salvation to Every man....WITHOUT that mans CONSENT? No.
Receiving Gods Gift of Salvation requires Every individual To Take His Offered Gift.
Scripture reveals the WAY for a man to Receive, Take, Have, Once and Forever Gods Gift of Salvation.
Remember the Offering of the Fruit Of The Tree Of Life, Given Adam and Eve? And what did they have to do to Receive that Gift?
“Reach out and take AND eat that Gift”;
they didn’t.
Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Men TAKE Gods Gifts...His Word...taste it, follow, can stop at any time.
While they are “hearing, learning, Tasting”...
Gods Spirit IS “WITH” that man.
Once a man “EATS” the Word of God...
Gods Spirit IS “WITHIN” that man.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
OSAS...IS an Individual having Accepted / ie: Reached out and Taken/ EATEN Gods Offering of Salvation NOW “according to Gods WAY”.
THAT “Way”... was revealed in the OT and again in the NT.
Gen 3:
them.
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
John 6
[50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jesus’ Body IS the Word of God.
Christ IS the Power of God.
** A man WHO “Tastes” the Word of God, Receives the Power of God “with him”.
...Faith with that man.
...That man Keeps his Faith BY His Own Power... His Own Endurance.
**A man WHO “Eats” the Word of God,
Receives the Power of God “with AND IN him”.
...Faith-Fullness with AND IN that man.
...That man DOES NOT keep “enduring”, “keeping his faith to his end BY The mans own power!”... That man is Kept BY Gods Power WITH-IN That man!
Greater is He that IS “IN” you than he that is in the World.
So no, I DO NOT, apply to me the warnings TO keep “Enduring” to the End.
* The powers OF Satan, OF Wicked Power Sitting men, OF any other man, OF myself....No one...CAN Divide me...Separate me From God...Not Ever!
(And no, I do NOT subscribe to the “often taught notion”, that men must DO Works To Receive OR Keep their “Salvation”).
Glory to God,
Taken
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
More UNBIBLICAL NONSENSE!
1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 5
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Different things happened throughout history maam. Initially those born again were given gifts, the first ones to receive the holy spirit spoke in tongues, and given various gifts. The apostles who received the spirit could heal, and even resurrect the dead. Acts 9:40 As time went on however, especially today it is much more difficult to identify them, in fact we cannot. The Bible says of them:
(Romans 8:16, 17) . . .The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.
I can only speak about myself, as we are not to put them on a pedestal, so we don't idolize them, I am fascinated to see them partake at the memorial. We are not to judge them however, although I have to admit I do question if the two I know are actually anointed, 1 proved not to be so. So we have to leave it in God's hands when someone claims to be one of the chosen ones, but it has been presented to us that if there is any doubt in our minds whatsoever that we are one of them, then we are not. I am a very dedicated, spiritual person, but do not have that calling maam. And to be quite honest about it, am very happy that I was not selected, and am happy for the privileges I am given.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Sinless means never having sinned, only one human in history died sinless Rob, and that was Jesus. No doubt you are familiar with this: (Romans 3:23) 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. . .
Taken
Well-Known Member
Christians are not sinners
OP ^
All earthly born men are naturally born IN sin.
Thus from the natural birth of an Earthly person...by default Every Earthly person IS a Sinner.
Name tags (ie Christian) DO NOT “make” a person NOT a sinner.
God Offered All Of mankind “A WAY” to be “MADE”;
Forgiven of their sin.
* First...by a man Offering of a pure animals blood.<—- Temporary, Requires Yearly Repeating.
^ This man CAN and DOES continue to commit Sin.
^ This man requires Repeated Forgiveness.
* Secondly...by a man Accepting Gods Offering Of Jesus’ Blood. <—- Permanent, Accomplished ONCE and Forever.
^ This man Sins NO more.
^ This man Does NOT require Repeated Sin Forgiveness.
IS THIS MAN “Sinless”... NO!
*This man IS a Forgiven Sinner, who sins NO MORE.
*A Sinless man, is a man WHO has Never Sinned...<—- That term, “Sinless”...applies EXCLUSIVELY...To Jesus!
* Men accusing men...Who Sin No More...OF... “them claiming to be “Sinless” is False on its face!
I have not seen one person on this forum “themselves” having claimed to be “Sinless”!
A man Forgiven By (Jesus’ Blood) of his sin against God, is Forgiven once and forever....Gods Forgiveness Of Sin Against Him....IS PART of the Works OF God that occurs DURING a man’s Conversion IN Christ.
Glory to God,
Taken
OP ^
All earthly born men are naturally born IN sin.
Thus from the natural birth of an Earthly person...by default Every Earthly person IS a Sinner.
Name tags (ie Christian) DO NOT “make” a person NOT a sinner.
God Offered All Of mankind “A WAY” to be “MADE”;
Forgiven of their sin.
* First...by a man Offering of a pure animals blood.<—- Temporary, Requires Yearly Repeating.
^ This man CAN and DOES continue to commit Sin.
^ This man requires Repeated Forgiveness.
* Secondly...by a man Accepting Gods Offering Of Jesus’ Blood. <—- Permanent, Accomplished ONCE and Forever.
^ This man Sins NO more.
^ This man Does NOT require Repeated Sin Forgiveness.
IS THIS MAN “Sinless”... NO!
*This man IS a Forgiven Sinner, who sins NO MORE.
*A Sinless man, is a man WHO has Never Sinned...<—- That term, “Sinless”...applies EXCLUSIVELY...To Jesus!
* Men accusing men...Who Sin No More...OF... “them claiming to be “Sinless” is False on its face!
I have not seen one person on this forum “themselves” having claimed to be “Sinless”!
A man Forgiven By (Jesus’ Blood) of his sin against God, is Forgiven once and forever....Gods Forgiveness Of Sin Against Him....IS PART of the Works OF God that occurs DURING a man’s Conversion IN Christ.
Glory to God,
Taken
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Then it appears that all you need to do is grow to maturity all the fruit of the Spirit so you will never stumble 2 Peter 1:10-11 referring to 5-7
That is what OSAS Christians sinners teach.
Since you agree as a Christian you are not a sinner, then why the offense? It shouldn't apply to you.
Similar threads
