Paul taught that revelation 20:4 is a present reality

[Marty fox]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

 

[GISMYS_7]

Read Revelation 20 verse 1-3 for the context of verse 4 and you will see Revelation 20 is about very near future events!!!

 

[Marty fox]

Read Revelation 20 verse 1-3 for the context of verse 4 and you will see Revelation 20 is about very near future events!!!

So was Paul wrong when he penned those verses?

Scripture can not contradict scripture

The whole of scripture is greater than the sum of its individual passages. You can not comprehend the bible as a whole without comprehending its individual passages and you cannot comprehend its individual passages without comprehending the bible as a whole. The individual passages can never be interpreted in a way as to conflict the whole of scripture

The above method is the best way to interpret scripture especially prophecy

 

[Enoch111]

In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now

Revelation 20:4 has no connection to this. It is a future even as the whole chapter is about future events.

 

[ScottA]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Yes, and most do not conclude this to be the case for some lack of hearing the words in spirit.

You have connected the two by the Spirit, which is above the words themselves and their literary value--as they must be discerned spiritually. If one is wise he looks for it to be so, just as it is written. Beyond that, these things only come to us by our Father who is in heaven, which is to say, according to what Christ has arranged for our times by the help of the Holy Spirit.

What then of the term "a thousand years?" Is it all void and nonsense, because the same word says that Christ overcame the world and received His throne not "a thousand years" ago, but 2,000? Of course not! It means that those who are reading it so, have no understanding. The words therefore, being spirit, are like those which are spoke to men in their own worldly terms, that only those who hear from God will understand in His terms, thereby protecting the scriptures from the wolves among us. In this way, the term "a thousand years" is written like "I am" which in worldly terms was described as "yesterday, today, and forever"--because He spoke it to children of little understanding who could only imagine things in their own terms at the time. Likewise, "a thousand years" is spiritually discerned as "in the fullness of time"...again, not giving the wolves any advantage.

Carry on.

 

[Marty fox]

Revelation 20:4 has no connection to this. It is a future even as the whole chapter is about future events.

You just made a statement with no scriptural backing look at what Paul just said

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Made us alive with Christ.

So Paul is still alive on earth and he has also been raised spiritually alive with Christ.

Paul also says that while he is still alive on the earth he is also seated with Jesus in the heavenly realms thus he is reigning with Christ.

This is a direct fulfillment of the verse below

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Enoch111]

You just made a statement with no scriptural backing look at what Paul just said

Since Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19, that is all the Scriptural backing one needs. And Revelation 19 is still in the future since it pertains to the Second Coming of Christ. What Paul says is true in the spiritual sense and is applicable to the present time.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Paul wasn't literally sitting in heaven, nor was he beheaded. The beheaded saints that come back to life and rule with Christ are not the ones who were sitting in thrones. As is the case with anything Amillennial related, it is false.

 

[Marty fox]

Paul wasn't literally sitting in heaven, nor was he beheaded. The beheaded saints that come back to life and rule with Christ are not the ones who were sitting in thrones. As is the case with anything Amillennial related, it is false.

Well Paul was eventually beheaded but they don’t have to literally be beheaded it’s about them dying for Christ in which every way. But it’s not just for the ones who die for Jesus it’s saying that even though they die for Jesus they will still reign.

It’s also not literal Paul was saying that he is seated with Jesus even though he was still on earth is symbolic for reigning with Christ.

 

[Marty fox]

Since Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19, that is all the Scriptural backing one needs. And Revelation 19 is still in the future since it pertains to the Second Coming of Christ. What Paul says is true in the spiritual sense and is applicable to the present time.

That’s my point it’s spiritual reigning.

Revelation 20 chronologically following 19 is a view many see the thousand years starting at the resurrection. The same with the second coming in chapter 19 many see it as a coming in judgement

 

[ewq1938]

In no way was Paul talking about Revelation 20:4

Well Paul was eventually beheaded but they don’t have to literally be beheaded it’s about them dying for Christ in which every way. But it’s not just for the ones who die for Jesus it’s saying that even though they die for Jesus they will still reign.

It’s also not literal Paul was saying that he is seated with Jesus even though he was still on earth is symbolic for reigning with Christ.

 

[Waiting on him]

In no way was Paul talking about Revelation 20:4

The first century church in Jerusalem was starving, they couldn’t buy trade or sale because of the heavy influence of Judaism.

 

[ewq1938]

The first century church in Jerusalem was starving, they couldn’t buy trade or sale because of the heavy influence of Judaism.

They bought and sold daily without issue. They even used Roman money.

 

[Waiting on him]

They bought and sold daily without issue. They even used Roman money.

Paul was taking up a offering from the churches to feed them. I also believe this their poverty inspired the book of James who was the overseer of that church.


James 1:1 KJV
[1] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul was taking up a offering from the churches to feed them. I also believe this their poverty inspired the book of James who was the overseer of that church.

There have always been rich members of the church, middle class, and the poor.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul was taking up a offering from the churches to feed them. I also believe this their poverty inspired the book of James who was the overseer of that church.


James 1:1 KJV
[1] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The Holy Spirit is like...

I was considering the above thread “the Holy Spirit is like” a father to the orphans and fatherless. Lamentations 5:1-17 doesn’t hold back ‘Remember, O Lord, what is come upon us: consider, and behold our reproach. [2] Our inheritance is turned to strangers, our houses to aliens. [3] We are orphans and fatherless, our mothers are as widows. [4] We have drunken our water for money; our wood is sold unto us. [5] Our necks are under persecution(pretty graphic if you ask me),we labour, and have no rest. [6] We have given the hand to the Egyptians, and to the Assyrians, to be satisfied with bread. [7] Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities. [8] Servants have ruled over us: there is none that doth deliver us out of their hand. [9] We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. [10] Our skin was black like an oven because of the terrible famine. [11] They ravished the women in Zion, and the maids in the cities of Judah. [12] Princes are hanged up by their hand: the faces of elders were not honoured. [13] They took the young men to grind, and the children fell under the wood. [14] The elders have ceased from the gate, the young men from their musick. (Revelation 18:22-23
15] The joy of our heart is ceased; our dance is turned into mourning. [16] The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned! [17] For this our heart is faint; for these things our eyes are dim.
Deuteronomy 34:7

 

[Davy]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

That is such a BUTCHERY of God's written Word. You had to have learned that idea from some fake preacher.

Evidently you've never heard of the 'future-perfect' prophetic sense. It is when Scripture states a fact in a type of 'present tense', yet the actual fulfillment is still in the future.

Revelation 20 is ONLY for AFTER Christ's future return. You cannot just pull that one verse and apply whatever kind of meaning to it that you want. You MUST stay with the Chapter flow...

Rev 20:1-4
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is STILL allowed to roam this earth today, seeking to devour whom he will, according to Apostle Peter (1 Peter 5:8). So that above definitely has NOT happened yet today.


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

To infer that above is already... happening today is to tell a huge LIE, because it would have to mean the RESURRECTION HAD ALREADY HAPPENED, AND THAT JESUS HAD ALREADY RETURNED! Or did you not notice it is pointing to those saints in the past that were beheaded for Christ being resurrected at that point and alive ruling with Jesus?

 

[Marty fox]

That is such a BUTCHERY of God's written Word. You had to have learned that idea from some fake preacher.

Evidently you've never heard of the 'future-perfect' prophetic sense. It is when Scripture states a fact in a type of 'present tense', yet the actual fulfillment is still in the future.

Revelation 20 is ONLY for AFTER Christ's future return. You cannot just pull that one verse and apply whatever kind of meaning to it that you want. You MUST stay with the Chapter flow...

Rev 20:1-4
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan is STILL allowed to roam this earth today, seeking to devour whom he will, according to Apostle Peter (1 Peter 5:8). So that above definitely has NOT happened yet today.


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV

To infer that above is already... happening today is to tell a huge LIE, because it would have to mean the RESURRECTION HAD ALREADY HAPPENED, AND THAT JESUS HAD ALREADY RETURNED! Or did you not notice it is pointing to those saints in the past that were beheaded for Christ being resurrected at that point and alive ruling with Jesus?

You really assume a lot about people and make many false claims. Maybe instead of saying “you had to of learned this from a fake preacher” ask a question like “did you hear this from a fake preacher?

Or instead of saying “Evidently you've never heard of the 'future-perfect' prophetic sense” maybe post it more as a question because you have some bad ways of debating. Having a different view of scripture interpretation isn’t a lie but a different view.

All that being said I came across this view myself and I didn’t hear it from a fake preacher unless you are calling Paul a fake teacher.

You call this a butchery of scripture but Paul said that he was (while alive on earth) “ made us alive with Christ”. This then means that in some way he was dead before he was made alive. Could it be spiritually dead since he was still physical alive?

Then John says “that the souls of those killed for Christ lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”. Thus the dead came back to life just like Paul said that he was “made alive with Christ”

Then Paul said (while still alive on earth)“ God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” Thus while Paul is still alive on earth he is also seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. This is spiritual but also giving the saints hope that they will still live even though they physically die.

John said this about the dead “ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,” then John also said about these dead people “they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”

Thus the coming back to life is spiritual on earth and in heaven. Paul claims that he was fulfilling what John saw.

So show me how I exactly butchered Gods word when all I did was point out what Paul said.

Did Paul butcher Gods word then because he said it not me?

 

[Davy]

You really assume a lot about people and make many false claims. Maybe instead of saying “you had to of learned this from a fake preacher” ask a question like “did you hear this from a fake preacher?

Well, that shows you are in an even worse condition, if you didn't get your idea from some fake preacher. It shows your false idea about Rev.20 just popped up out of your own head.

Or instead of saying “Evidently you've never heard of the 'future-perfect' prophetic sense” maybe post it more as a question because you have some bad ways of debating. Having a different view of scripture interpretation isn’t a lie but a different view.

I can't count the number of times that deceived have said that to me, that it's just another view, as if 'any' view that just pops into one's head can be the right one. I'd like to see you apply that kind of thinking to a study and practice in electronics. I guarantee you wouldn't still be here.

Truth in God's Word is no different than anything else, there is proper study and understanding in it, and then there is improper study and understanding that leads to error and away from the Truth.

All that being said I came across this view myself and I didn’t hear it from a fake preacher unless you are calling Paul a fake teacher.

Nah, you can't assume you have the 'correct' interpretation when you do not. You're lucky that someone like me is honest enough to point these things out to you. And if your feelings are a little bit hurt because of it, you'll still be better off learning how you error in the Scripture.

You call this a butchery of scripture but Paul said that he was (while alive on earth) “ made us alive with Christ”. This then means that in some way he was dead before he was made alive. Could it be spiritually dead since he was still physical alive?

What you said about Rev.20 is a butchery of God's Word, because instead of 'rightly dividing' God's Word like Apostle Paul said to do, you instead butchered the clear flow of that Rev.20 Scripture, and inserted your own view of what timing it's about.

But you are not alone in that, because Amillennialists do the very same thing to that Rev.20 chapter, trying to push it backwards in our present time. And THAT is why I still say YOU GOT THE IDEA FROM SOME FAKE PREACHER. The doctrine you are pushing, that you say just popped into your head, is actually from Amillennialism.

 

[Davy]

You call this a butchery of scripture but Paul said that he was (while alive on earth) “ made us alive with Christ”. This then means that in some way he was dead before he was made alive. Could it be spiritually dead since he was still physical alive?

Paul was speaking in the 'future-perfect' sense, with Ephesians 2:4-6. Those in Christ will not be made perfect 'literally' UNTIL Christ's coming to gather His Church. Paul points this out elsewhere...

Rom 8:18-25
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Right there Paul is showing that "glory" is NOT YET revealed in us today. He is pointing eventually to the Romans 8:23 further below about the redemption of our body (our "spiritual body", not flesh). That won't happen until the day of Christ's future return and those still alive are suddenly "changed" to the "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15).

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

That word "creature" (ktisis) in the Greek actually means the 'creation'. God placed His creation for this present world into "bondage of corruption", and even the creation seeks to be released from that bondage along with the glorious manifestation of the sons of God. That suggests that glory does not come until that "manifestation of the sons of God" happens.

But wait a minute, didn't Apostle Paul say those in Christ already are "sons of God"? Yeah, he did, back at the Romans 8:14 verse. And Apostle John said it too, in 1 John 3. (I'm referring to the KJV Bible by the way.) So what time is Paul pointing to with the creation waiting to be released from that bondage along with the "manifestation of the sons of God"?

It's future-perfect sense time again... Paul is pointing to our glorious bodies we put on when Jesus returns. The title "sons of God" is in reality a type pointer to our "spiritual body" we are to be changed to on that day of Christ's future return. But he is calling us "sons of God" now, so how does that work? It is because when our "spirit" inside our flesh believes on Jesus Christ we are then "born again", and our spirit manifests as a son of God. But the future glorious "spiritual body" is not manifested on earth yet today, that is what the FUTURE "redemption of our body" is about...

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV

Even those 24-25 verses Paul shows that redemption is still future, and not yet today of this present world. But by already calling those in Christ the "sons of God", it is to show that future "hope" of redemption by Jesus when He returns in the future. And Paul shows we MUST SEE IT to know it has come, which is WHY we still 'hope'.