Paul taught that revelation 20:4 is a present reality

[Marty fox]

I understand the little horns character. I know what the little horn is and how it thinks. I read the news often to see what the little horn is doing.
It won't be long before the little horn starts imprisoning the saints and killing them.
It's only a matter of time.

If that's what you believe then look up the only 4 verses in the bible which mention the antichrist and you will see that it is nothing like the description of the little horn

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

So was Paul wrong when he penned those verses?

Scripture can not contradict scripture

The whole of scripture is greater than the sum of its individual passages. You can not comprehend the bible as a whole without comprehending its individual passages and you cannot comprehend its individual passages without comprehending the bible as a whole. The individual passages can never be interpreted in a way as to conflict the whole of scripture

The above method is the best way to interpret scripture especially prophecy

Paul was not wrong. Your use of his words, however, is most definitely wrong. Scripture doesn't contradict itself, but you are making scripture contradict what is written in Ecclesiastes and in other books about how no one has any awareness of anything when they die. Furthermore, both Testaments makes it clear that your theology has no biblical support:

"And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,"

“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.” - Dan. 12:13

If the patriarchs, the prophets, and the other followers of God in the OT have to wait until Jesus' return to receive their inheritance like everybody else, then common logic says Rev. 20:1-4 isn't a present reality.

Jeremiah 33:14-17
14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Savior.’

For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel,

If Jesus isn’t sitting on David’s throne now then this verse would of failed

The obvious problem with this argument is that you assume Jesus is the only possible contender because He is the most notable and significant descendant of David. The argument is extremely problematic for 2 huge reasons:

1. Jesus was born in the Perez line(Matt. 1:3, Luk. 3:33).

2. God prophesied in Eze. 21:25-26 that He would punish Zedekiah for his rejection of His laws by removing David's throne entirely from the Perez line and bestowing it onto the bloodline of Perez's brother Zerah(Gen. 38:27-30, Mat. 1:3). That was fulfilled back in Jeremiah's day.

The problem with people who contend that Jesus is on David's throne is that they fail to realize that God used Zedekiah's daughters(Jer. 41:10, 43:6) to create royal descendants for David through Zerah's line. It is those descendants who have been sitting on David's throne throughout the centuries, not Jesus. Ownership of David's throne will return to Perez's line when Jesus' returns to rule from Jerusalem.

 

[GEN2REV]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


In the verses below Paul spoke in current and past tense stating that we even though alive have been already seated with Christ spiritually thus we reign on thrones with Jesus now


Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Yes.

We need more posts like this to point out the parallel passages between Rev. 20 and other books in Scripture.

Maybe one day we'll put this Pre-Mil impostor-of-a-doctrine to rest for good.

Also, Rev. 20:10-15 is taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:20-27 to actually happen upon Christ's return.

Not 1,000 years later.

Cockamamie bull shoot.

 

[GEN2REV]

Revelation 20:4 has no connection to this. It is a future even as the whole chapter is about future events.

How can we possibly conclude that?

Revelation is all over the map as far as timeline.

Chapter 20 comes before chapter 19, but not before 6 and then comes 10.

So, just for those particular chapters, alone, we have 6, 20, 19, 10.

Now, tell me. How can you claim that 20 is, for certain, a future event? How can you prove that with Scripture?

 

[ewq1938]

But that is nothing like what John says that the antichrist is. The sea beast of revelation is a very different description than the antichrist

The antichrist is the false prophet not the ten kingdomed empire he rules.

 

[Davy]

Jeremiah 33:14-17
14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line;
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Savior.’

For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel,

If Jesus isn’t sitting on David’s throne now then this verse would of failed

What makes you think there is NONE of the seed of David sitting upon David's throne ON EARTH today? The Genesis 49:10 prophecy has NOT been fulfilled yet with Christ's ("Shiloh") future coming to take that earthly throne. And of course God has hidden this from the profane who don't understand it.

 

[Waiting on him]

1 John 2:18 KJV
[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


1 John 2:22 KJV
[22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


1 John 4:3 KJV
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 John 1:7 KJV
[7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Waiting on him]

I sometimes wander what it is John meant by

Whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Marty fox]

I sometimes wander what it is John meant by

Whereby we know that it is the last time.

It was the last days of the temple and sacrificial age the last of those days

 

[ewq1938]

It was the last days of the temple and sacrificial age the last of those days

More likely he did believe he was living in the end times. They did not know when the second coming would happen so naturally they hoped to be that generation but they saw none of the end times prophecies come to pass.

 

[Waiting on him]

More likely he did believe he was living in the end times. They did not know when the second coming would happen so naturally they hoped to be that generation but they saw none of the end times prophecies come to pass.

Would you mind naming one they didn’t see?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

But that is nothing like what John says that the antichrist is. The sea beast of revelation is a very different description than the antichrist

The Little Horn, Beast of Rev. 13, the Man of Sin are all the same person, a man. I rendered your Rev. 20:4 point to be a non point. If you had read the verse more clearly you would have understood it could only be those living during the 70th week.

Now you do not understand the Anti-Christ is a CATCH ALL for his many (33 or so) names. Get it together man.

 

[GEN2REV]

I sometimes wander what it is John meant by

Whereby we know that it is the last time.

Sounds to me like he's saying it is the Last Age.

The Church Age and the Kingdom Age are the same thing.

Matthew 16:18-19

 

[Enoch111]

Revelation is all over the map as far as timeline.

That is a complete fallacy. While there are a few parenthetical passages which need to be placed in the correct order, the bulk of Revelation is purely chronological. Thus we have seven consecutive seals, then the seventh seal has seven consecutive trumpet judgments, then the seventh trumpet judgment has seven vial judgments. Each chapter also follows in chronological sequence, so chapters 6-18 comprise the periods of judgment, then chapter 19 through 22 are chronological. And even those are clearly in the future.

 

[shilohsfoal]

If that's what you believe then look up the only 4 verses in the bible which mention the antichrist and you will see that it is nothing like the description of the little horn

I have read what John said about the Antichrist and those of his day. The sons are the same now as thier fathers were then. The kingdom shall be taken from the little horn and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof.

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever--yes, forever and ever.'

 

[GEN2REV]

That is a complete fallacy. While there are a few parenthetical passages which need to be placed in the correct order, the bulk of Revelation is purely chronological. Thus we have seven consecutive seals, then the seventh seal has seven consecutive trumpet judgments, then the seventh trumpet judgment has seven vial judgments. Each chapter also follows in chronological sequence, so chapters 6-18 comprise the periods of judgment, then chapter 19 through 22 are chronological. And even those are clearly in the future.

Ok, well you can believe whatever is most comfortable for the doctrinal structure you've chosen to embrace as the truth, but if you know Revelation, it's all over the map chronologically.

Chapter 6 speaks of the Wrath of God.

10 speaks of all time ending.

19 ends with the beast and false prophet being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Then 20 rewinds and presents events that supposedly lead up to the Lake of Fire.

There are also events that are repeated like Revelation 21:2 where John sees "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, ..." - then he sees it again in Revelation 21:10. After being carried away in the spirit, he sees "that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ..."

So, you can believe, and claim, whatever you like, but a fact is a fact. And Revelation is all over the place chronologically.

And that's a fact.

 

[ewq1938]

Would you mind naming one they didn’t see?

I'll name them all. Every single event Christ spoke about while sitting on the mount of olives has not happened yet.

 

[ewq1938]

That is a complete fallacy. While there are a few parenthetical passages which need to be placed in the correct order, the bulk of Revelation is purely chronological.

No, that's false. It's chronology jumps all over the place.

Thus we have seven consecutive seals, then the seventh seal has seven consecutive trumpet judgments

What?? A seal about silence has loud trumpets?? No, the trumpets sound AFTER all the seals are opened.

, then the seventh trumpet judgment has seven vial judgments.

This is accurate.

 

[ewq1938]

Chapter 6 speaks of the Wrath of God.

Speaks of it but the wrath doesn't happen at that time.

10 speaks of all time ending.

Time never ends, that's how we get an eternity.

19 ends with the beast and false prophet being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Then 20 rewinds and presents events that supposedly lead up to the Lake of Fire.

20 rewinds a bit to speak of the resurrection of the saints but then picks up with events that take place after the second coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Whenever it seams that scripture is a failure then the interpretation is wrong.

The context in this section is the first advent when Jesus walked the earth and in verse 16 you will see that Jerusalem is called “the Lord our righteous saviour”. Don’t you see this Jerusalem is the church the new Jerusalem true Israel?

Galatians 4:24-26
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Paul talks of the Jerusalem from above as a current reality.

You are the one calling it a failure in logic, if certain criteria are not met.

Jerusalem will be at peace at the Second Coming, because the Prince of Peace will be in charge.