John Calvin and Calvinism.

[reformed1689]

#1. Its unbiblical big time.
#2. It's immoral big time.
#3. It's not the historic teaching (St. Augustine was the first to bring in a more primitive concept of it).
#4. 5 point Calvinism was created by a man who had others murdered for theological differences.
#5. Westminster Confession of Faith and the 5 point teaching of Calvinism become unspoken extra biblical holy writings.

1. No it is not unbiblical.
2. How on earth is it immoral?
3. No Augustine was not the first.
4. No it wasn't either, and if you are referring to Calvin, you really need to check your history.
5. Nope

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1. No it is not unbiblical.

Sure Calvinism is unbiblical big time. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah 3:10 are two big ones that Calvinists love to ignore or change.

2. How on earth is it immoral?

I believe Calvinism is not in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.” Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it. That's kind of how I see the god of Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, the god of Calvinism is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So god of Calvinism is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and the god of Calvinism has chosen this only path for them. The god of Calvinism wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible. For John 3:16 says God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

I believe Calvinism cannot be true because if it was (not that it ever could be), I would conclude that life is meaningless and nothing I ever did truly mattered.

I believe Calvinism cannot be true because if it was (not that it ever could be), I would have to conclude God wanted the majority of mankind to be in despair without any hope because only a few are elected or saved by His choice and not their own. For the person who was looking for hope could not truly find it from God if God decided that they never were Elected. Too bad for them, right? They were not one of the chosen lucky ones.

3. No Augustine was not the first.

Not true.

4. No it wasn't either, and if you are referring to Calvin, you really need to check your history.

Again, not true. Calvin did have others kill those who disagreed with him theologically.

Calvin spelled out his theologically reinforced vengeance in a personal letter:

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.”
​

- Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July (for more words directly from Calvin’s pen, read Selected Works of John Calvin)
​

Calvin believed God made sure criminals didn’t die quickly when tortured. This vengeful attitude and his support for outdated Old Covenant laws that legislated capital punishment for competing theologians that challenged his preferred doctrines look more like ISIS than Jesus.

John Calvin’s Fight Against Heretics

Personal correspondence and city council records betray John Calvin’s extraordinary influence in Geneva. Although he was asked to leave in 1538 when he enforced his strict moral standards and pushed for the church’s independent power to excommunicate people, Genevan officials invited him to return in 1541 to resolve church divisions. Upon his return, the city council approved his Ecclesiastical Ordinances that included the establishment of the Consistory. The Consistory, a church court that oversaw the discipline of the citizens of Geneva, met every Thursday to review cases (This book is a chronicle of the Consistory’s records from 1542-1544.) John Calvin led the court. Although the Consistory did not have the power to imprison, exile, or kill those who were guilty, Calvin could still convince the city magistrates to wield such power when his theological opponents contradicted him.

When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime acquaintance who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. So what did Calvin do? You can read his resolution from a personal letter he wrote to a friend:

“Servetus offers to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.”
​

- Letter to Farel, 13 February 1546
​

The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. The city magistrates condemned him to death. Calvin pleaded for Servetus to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but to no avail. Some people see Calvin’s compassion in pursuing a more humane method of death, but ultimately he supported killing Servetus and all such heretics.

Institutes of the Christian Religion to be a "holy doctrine which no man might speak against." Disagreeing with Calvin’s view of God was a violation warranting the death penalty according to the way John Calvin interpreted Leviticus 24:16. The Geneva city council records describe one verdict where a man who publicly protested against John Calvin’s doctrine of predestination was flogged at all the city’s main intersections and then expelled (“The Minutes Book of the Geneva City Council, 1541-59,” translated by Stefan Zweig, Erasmus: The Right to Heresy).
​

Source:
John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible
(Note: The above writing is taken from an article. I agree with the author on this particular article; But it does not mean I agree with everything the author believes or says because I do not know all of what he believes).

5. Nope

Again, not true, I talked with many Calvinists over the years and they love to point out the 5 points of Calvinism as if it was God's Word. Many (not all) Calvinists also do revere the Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[Renniks]

And yet you have not offerred one bible verse for any of the five points. YOu seem content in just attacking believers who know they are biblical!

I have offered verses. Perhaps you missed them. The biggest issue is that limited atonement just isn't biblical. You want verses? Fine.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 John 4:14

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:19
That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Romans 5:12-19
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. ...

1 Timothy 2:1-15
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ...

 

[Renniks]

Well once a person is saved they have free will restored! Only believers have the ability to choose or not choose to do the things of God! but that is a different subject. I am talking strictly about unsaved people. The cannot choose God as is written!

They certainly can, God reveals himself to all.

 

[Renniks]

LOL! Yes, but I think God would have corrected him there if he was mistaken. That's kind of the point of God having just asked him four chapters worth of unanswerable questions. Just a sampling :

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to Me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements ~ surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb, when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors, and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?" (Job 38:1-11)

And then Job 42:1-6...

"Then Job answered the LORD and said: 'I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ...I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know... I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.'”

My goodness.

Grace and peace to you.

I think you really miss God's point in Job.
God was showing Job he was not capable of understanding how God operates.
Actually the book of Job shows us that spiritual warfare is a reality. Calvinism, on the other hand, claims God does everything, so there's no war, only God playing a game with himself.

 

[Renniks]

Yes, and a promise that we won't fail because of God's not failing us and sustaining us to the end. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

All of the saints failed in some ways. Do you believe God ordained David's adultery for example?

 

[reformed1689]

Sure Calvinism is unbiblical big time. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah 3:10 are two big ones that Calvinists love to ignore or change.



I believe Calvinism is not in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.” Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it. That's kind of how I see the god of Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, the god of Calvinism is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So god of Calvinism is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and the god of Calvinism has chosen this only path for them. The god of Calvinism wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible. For John 3:16 says God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

I believe Calvinism cannot be true because if it was (not that it ever could be), I would conclude that life is meaningless and nothing I ever did truly mattered.

I believe Calvinism cannot be true because if it was (not that it ever could be), I would have to conclude God wanted the majority of mankind to be in despair without any hope because only a few are elected or saved by His choice and not their own. For the person who was looking for hope could not truly find it from God if God decided that they never were Elected. Too bad for them, right? They were not one of the chosen lucky ones.



Not true.

Again, not true. Calvin did have others kill those who disagreed with him theologically.

Calvin spelled out his theologically reinforced vengeance in a personal letter:

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.”
​

- Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July (for more words directly from Calvin’s pen, read Selected Works of John Calvin)​

Calvin believed God made sure criminals didn’t die quickly when tortured. This vengeful attitude and his support for outdated Old Covenant laws that legislated capital punishment for competing theologians that challenged his preferred doctrines look more like ISIS than Jesus.

John Calvin’s Fight Against Heretics

Personal correspondence and city council records betray John Calvin’s extraordinary influence in Geneva. Although he was asked to leave in 1538 when he enforced his strict moral standards and pushed for the church’s independent power to excommunicate people, Genevan officials invited him to return in 1541 to resolve church divisions. Upon his return, the city council approved his Ecclesiastical Ordinances that included the establishment of the Consistory. The Consistory, a church court that oversaw the discipline of the citizens of Geneva, met every Thursday to review cases (This book is a chronicle of the Consistory’s records from 1542-1544.) John Calvin led the court. Although the Consistory did not have the power to imprison, exile, or kill those who were guilty, Calvin could still convince the city magistrates to wield such power when his theological opponents contradicted him.

When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime acquaintance who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. So what did Calvin do? You can read his resolution from a personal letter he wrote to a friend:

“Servetus offers to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.”
​

- Letter to Farel, 13 February 1546​

The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. The city magistrates condemned him to death. Calvin pleaded for Servetus to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but to no avail. Some people see Calvin’s compassion in pursuing a more humane method of death, but ultimately he supported killing Servetus and all such heretics.

Institutes of the Christian Religion to be a "holy doctrine which no man might speak against." Disagreeing with Calvin’s view of God was a violation warranting the death penalty according to the way John Calvin interpreted Leviticus 24:16. The Geneva city council records describe one verdict where a man who publicly protested against John Calvin’s doctrine of predestination was flogged at all the city’s main intersections and then expelled (“The Minutes Book of the Geneva City Council, 1541-59,” translated by Stefan Zweig, Erasmus: The Right to Heresy).​

Source:
John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible
(Note: The above writing is taken from an article. I agree with the author on this particular article; But it does not mean I agree with everything the author believes or says because I do not know all of what he believes).



Again, not true, I talked with many Calvinists over the years and they love to point out the 5 points of Calvinism as if it was God's Word. Many (not all) Calvinists also do revere the Westminster Confession of Faith.

A few problems here. 1. How do we ignore those verses? Just becasuse you say it doesn't make it so. 2. Fairness and justice means all go to Hell so I really wish anti-calvinists would think through that argument. 3. I don't watch YouTube. 4. Again, study the ACTUAL history, particularly with servetus. YOu are missing some details. 5. The five points of Calvinism come from God's word yes, that's not saying those exact words are the Word of GOd. DOn't mistake the two.

 

[Johann]

Explain "provisional atonement"

Provisional Atonement Part 1: Dealing With John Owen’s Arminian Dilemma

Provisional Atonement Part 2: Provision is Consistent With Foreknowledge

IS A PROVISIONAL ATONEMENT A CONTRADICTION?

Hmm....interesting, no Armenian ever won a debate with the Reformers.

And by Puritan I mean Owen and Edward

No one ever won a debate ever against Owen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nOjbKPf8aA

Grace of Fire Church?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A few problems here. 1. How do we ignore those verses? Just becasuse you say it doesn't make it so.

The verses speak for themselves and do not allow for Calvinism to exist.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. They are also perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth and not because God did not elect them.

Jonah 3:10 talks about how God changed His mind in not bringing judgment on the Ninevites because they forsaken their evil ways. This is not possible in Calvinism. In the upside down world of Calvinism: They were either Elect or Non-Elect. No decision on the part of the Ninevites would have changed the god of Calvinism's prearranged plan to destroy them. But we read in the story about how what they did (by forsaking sin) led God to turn back or relent in destroying them.

2. Fairness and justice means all go to Hell so I really wish anti-calvinists would think through that argument.

This is merely ignoring the moral issues I presented. Again, I highly doubt it that you and your son would rejoice if a coast guard drove off in not saving you guys (While he saved others). You would not say to your son, “Hey son, isn't that coast guard great? He reminds me of the god of Calvinism that we serve.”

While people who do deserve hell for sinning against God, we know by 2 Peter 3:9 that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Calvinism does not allow you to believe this verse as it is plainly stated.

3. I don't watch YouTube.

YouTube is a great educational tool. If you want to fix something in the house or learn a skill, YouTube is great for that. If you want to learn what others believe you can do so at YouTube. I am sure you can even find great Calvinism videos. Granted, I am glad you don't watch them because they are so obviously false.

4. Again, study the ACTUAL history, particularly with servetus YOu are missing some details. .

This sounds like a Calvinistic invention to the tale. John Calvin had others killed besides servetus.
Puritans (Calvinists) killed witches. So this seems to be a bad pattern going on here.

5. The five points of Calvinism come from God's word yes,

No. They don't. They were invented by Calvin and they were not a part of debate by other believers.
Well, Calvin took Augustine's view on Double Predestination and ran with it more to give the 5 points of Calvinism (Which is false).

that's not saying those exact words are the Word of GOd. DOn't mistake the two.

The point here is that Calvin and his followers teach something that is not in the Bible.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think you really miss God's point in Job.

You're more than welcome to your opinion (as if you need that from me or something...). The point remains, there, though, that God surely would have corrected Job in some way if Job had been mistaken regarding his final concession that God's purposes cannot be thwarted.

God was showing Job he was not capable of understanding how God operates.

Sure. I'm not sure what you mean, then, by "missing God's point to Job," because I certainly agree with you here. But it's more than that, really. Who is Job to question God and His justice, or to question how He does things? And the same question can be put to all of us; who are we to do that? As if we know better?

Actually the book of Job shows us that spiritual warfare is a reality.

Yes, the whole Bible shows that, really.

Calvinism, on the other hand, claims God does everything, so there's no war, only God playing a game with himself.

LOL! Wow. No... Wow.

Grace and peace to you, Renniks.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hmm....interesting, no Armenian ever won a debate with the Reformers.

And by Puritan I mean Owen and Edward

No one ever won a debate ever against Owe

Grace of Fire Church?

Post #883 has some great verses that refutes Limited Atonement.

1 John 2:2 is one of my favorites that refutes Limited Atonement.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
(1 John 2:2).

John is saying that he is not only the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for not only OUR sins (believer's sins), but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. This is not talking about the Elect.

The only believers that do not have their names written in the book of life (i.e. believers Christ did not die for) are those who worship the beast in the future (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8).

As for your videos that claim that they win over debate involving Arminians:

I am sure many Arminians would disagree with that assessment. I also know the Bible and what it says and besides a misreading of Romans 9 (out of context) there is no Calvinism in the Bible. It's simply man made or made up totally. Those who claim to believe in Calvinism before they heard about it were simply either misreading Romans 9 and or they want the god of Calvinism to be true. But there are many verses on free will that you have to ignore, twist, chop, etcetera.

Calvinism is appealing because in most cases it releases you of any responsibility.
God saves you, and you don't have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling as Philippians 2:12 says.

 

[PinSeeker]

All of the saints failed in some ways. Do you believe God ordained David's adultery for example?

Well sure, all the saints failed in a great many ways, just like we all do. We all sin and fall short (way short) of the glory of God all the time. Not to say "God's okay with that" or anything, because He's certainly not. But this is a total shift from what we were discussing. I said, "Yes, and a promise that we won't fail because of God's not failing us and sustaining us to the end. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus." I did not mean "a promise that we won't sin or fall short of God's glory" in this life, which seems to be what you're getting at, maybe without even realizing it. I meant that we won't fail ~ as in fall away and be lost by Jesus ~ once God has given us to Jesus and has begun His good work in us. He will bring it, without fail, to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). So it's God Who will not fail; and we will not fail in this sense because it's God Who, by the Holy Spirit's work in us (sanctification) will not fail. That's what we were discussing. Your (terribly mistaken) disavowal that the purpose of and work of God are unthwartable.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Post #883 has some great verses that refutes Limited Atonement.

There is no verse or passage in the Bible that refutes limited atonement. The problem is pretty much always a misunderstanding of what is meant by the idea of limited atonement. Christ's atonement, as I have said many times, is limited in one sense, but unlimited in another.

It is unlimited ~ for all ~ in the sense that it is sufficient for all. Every single verse/passage you cited is in this sense.

But it is limited in the sense that it is only effectual for God's elect, the ones He has purposed, before the foundation of the world, to save.

Grace and peace to you, BH.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no verse or passage in the Bible that refutes limited atonement. The problem is pretty much always a misunderstanding of what is meant by the idea of limited atonement. Christ's atonement, as I have said many times, is limited in one sense, but unlimited in another.

It is unlimited ~ for all ~ in the sense that it is sufficient for all. Every single verse/passage you cited is in this sense.

But it is limited in the sense that it is only effectual for God's elect, the ones He has purposed, before the foundation of the world, to save.

Grace and peace to you, BH.

Limited Atonement is falsely teaching that God did not die for the sins of the whole world. Meaning, if a person rejects Jesus in this life and dies (God did not die for their sins). This is what Limited Atonement is falsely teaching.

We learn in Peter that the Lord had bought even false teachers.

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” (2 Peter 2:1).

But obviously these false teachers are not saved just because Christ bought them (or paid the price for their sins). What is lacking is their having the proper faith to be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no verse or passage in the Bible that refutes limited atonement. The problem is pretty much always a misunderstanding of what is meant by the idea of limited atonement. Christ's atonement, as I have said many times, is limited in one sense, but unlimited in another.

It is unlimited ~ for all ~ in the sense that it is sufficient for all. Every single verse/passage you cited is in this sense.

But it is limited in the sense that it is only effectual for God's elect, the ones He has purposed, before the foundation of the world, to save.

Grace and peace to you, BH.

Again, the only people group that the Lord Jesus did not die for are those who worship the beast in the future (Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). Everybody else had their sins paid for on a PROVISIONAL basis and is only personally applied to their lives if they accept the free love gift that Jesus offers, and if they remain faithful to that gift. In other words, it's like Christ paid the price to write the check to cancel out your debts. But you can only be debt free if you cash the check and pay off those you are in debt to.

 

[Grailhunter]

There is no verse or passage in the Bible that refutes limited atonement. The problem is pretty much always a misunderstanding of what is meant by the idea of limited atonement. Christ's atonement, as I have said many times, is limited in one sense, but unlimited in another.

It is unlimited ~ for all ~ in the sense that it is sufficient for all. Every single verse/passage you cited is in this sense.

But it is limited in the sense that it is only effectual for God's elect, the ones He has purposed, before the foundation of the world, to save.

Grace and peace to you, BH.

1st John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1st Timothy 2:3-3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2nd Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[Johann]

God saves you, and you don't have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling as Philippians 2:12 says.

As Wesley misunderstood Calvinism so also are you misunderstanding (no offense).
You may know your bible intellectually and still come to the wrong conclusion.

Blessings
J.

 

[Renniks]

LOL! Wow. No... Wow.

You don't know your own theology. Calvinism is a form of fatalism. God decreed everything in Calvinists theology. Everything happens because of his decree. If I kill you it's because God decided I would. It's ultimately not my decision at all.

Calvinism is a belief in meticulious divine determinism over every thought, choice and event throughout human history.
John Calvin:
*** “Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.”[1]



*** “Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.”[2]

 

[Renniks]

Well sure, all the saints failed in a great many ways, just like we all do. We all sin and fall short (way short) of the glory of God all the time. Not to say "God's okay with that" or anything, because He's certainly not. But this is a total shift from what we were discussing.

No it's not. Because in Calvinists theology God ordained thier failures. There's nothing that happens in your Calvinist world that God isn't ok with, nothing he didn't ultimately cause himself.

 

[Renniks]

So it's God Who will not fail; and we will not fail in this sense because it's God Who, by the Holy Spirit's work in us (sanctification) will not fail. That's what we were discussing. Your (terribly mistaken) disavowal that the purpose of and work of God are unthwartable

If I walk away from God he didn't fail. He did everything necessary for my salvation. Just as he did for Israel.
God said:
"What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad? Now I will tell you what I am going to do to my vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it will be destroyed; I will break down its wall, and it will be trampled."

Did God ordain Israel's rejection of him?