John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Grailhunter]

You remind me of a fellow Christian (Alan Manson) I ran into recently.

https://mygospel.info/initial-and-final-salvation/

While we agree that there are two aspects of salvation, his other views involving the Bible are exceptionally strange and unbiblical. He believes that the born again experience happens sometime after one is Initially Saved and after one goes through some kind of spiritual striving process. I have shown him Scripture that this is simply not possible (John 3:5) (2 Corinthians 5:17) (Ephesians 3:17). He also believes that one can only put on the armor of GOD after they are a spiritual father. Yet, I pointed out to him how even David as a youth fought Goliath, and Paul tells all the Ephesian believers to put on the whole armor of GOD.

In fact, his one and only recruit (so far) calls him father (Which is a violation of the words of Jesus - Matthew 23:9). He also holds to the teaching of the Pre-Existence of the Soul of the Believer, too. Meaning, he thinks believers used to live up in Heaven before they were physically born into this world. Pretty crazy stuff there. The thing is that he does not really support his claims using the Bible. Unfortunately, I see this same pattern with you, my friend. Instead of dealing with what I said, you skip past it. For you seem to imply by your words that knowing the truth of God's Word is nearly impossible. Yet, when I brought up the Anointing in 1 John 2:27, you dodged the truth of this verse. When I asked you to explain the Trinity in a simple and clear way, you simply dodged in giving me the truth yet again.

Well I am nothing like that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not hiding anything. Stop with the accusations.
I have shared...it is in Grailhunter's Corner.

What accusations? If I have accused you of something you feel is unfair, I will apologize (of course).
Note: A question is not always an accusation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well I am nothing like that.

Yes, I am grateful you don't call other believers hurtful names, etcetera. I think on this we would agree, and I am thankful for God for that. I am just saying that Alan does not deal with the verses that I put forth to him. He does not explain them. You also have not done so with me, as well. You have not really explained how 1 John 2:27 applies today. Would not 1 John 2:27 refute your idea that it impossible for believers to know the truth because there are 30,000 denominations, etcetera?

 

[Grailhunter]

I would just tell it to you straight and simple right here.

As far as the construct of the Trinity, there is nothing straight and simple about the substance of the Gods....their state of being or their connection. That is why it has got so confused...people not paying attention to the scriptures and filling in the blanks.
but I can provide the explaination that Christ gave for the oneness concept.

Again, in relation to the Trinity it is the unity and the solidarity, in mind, in heart, and in spirit between Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father gives us in Genesis 2:24 an idea of how the concept of two people being one can be applied; “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” Yeshua reiterates this concept in Mathew 19:5 & 6 and Mark 10:8, specifically saying, “And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” Certainly everyone understands that husbands and wives do not merge to be one physical human, nor do they lose their character. They certainly join physically but they are not absorbed into one person, even though the condition of solidarity may exist between them. So in that case the word one is not denoting “the number one” or the singularity of the two persons in the marriage. Beyond what is listed in the examples above, in the New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of this concept of one. Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:21 “that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

 

[Johann]

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”

Again, not sure why you are trying to hide the truth and make it simple or easy for me.
Are you not here to serve your fellow brethren? Or are you here to only serve your own interests?
For me: It is a pleasure to take the time to explain things in God's Word to others.
Anyways, if you don't want to create another thread to explain it and provide a link, have a nice day and you can be the only one that believes the way you do. But I have a feeling that GOD wants us to share the truth with others (If indeed you are not ashamed to share the truth in a way that is explainable and easy).

This foolish comment shows your ignorance.

First off my pastor is not Calvinist. Nor am I! I am an independent Baptist. Nor do I hold to reformed theology or reformed eschatology. And I will take the godliness in his little toe over your arrogant self righteousness everyday! I just know that what people call the five points of Calvin are Scriptural. YOu offer no scriptural rebuttal, just your snide little insults.

YOu seem content to think god has left the preaching of the kingdom to men alone- it shows how little you know for the intimate care of God for His people.

YOu seem content to think god

My comment..please capitalize god to God/Elohim and it would seem that we come out guns blazing, revealing the true ego eimi.
Yeah, that was my 2 cents
Blessings
J.
Sorry for butting in, you guys and gals may continue this "debate"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is true but you wrongfully read it from a Calvinist bias, friend. I don't believe you are really seeking to read 1 Corinthians 2:14 in context to what it is actually saying. In other words, the big difference between us is that when I talk about a verse with believers we are in disagreement over, I try to make time to reread the chapter (sometimes the previous chapter and later chapters) to get a refresher. For I desire to get a feel and theme for what that verse is saying in light of the big picture of the context. However, I get the impression that you are just taking this snippet out of the Bible to defend Calvinism without really reading that verse in context for yourself. You are not really reading the verse to draw out meaning (exegesis), but you are inserting meaning into the text (eisegesis). Do you ever consider that maybe you could be wrong and the Bible does not support your belief in Calvinism?

YOu are beginning to go down the road that others are going down here- being guilty of presumptuous sin. I am not a Calvinist. I believe the five points we call the five points of Calvin are the biblical truth because they are! but I am far from being a refomed believer. As for 1 Cor. 2 I do keep it on context. The whole context is that the flesh (human nature) is unopen to teh things of God! You should know that.

As a bible teacher- I stress text and context and grammar and history and culture! Over and over again.

Exegesis is my forte so sorry you are guilty of making false assumptions?

did yiou ever consider that maybe you could be wrong ands the bible does not support your belief in Armeniasim?

But you tell me this:

What do you think in context 1 Cor. 2:14 means as well as Romans 8:6-9 mean????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What actual verse says that in Romans 5?

"Being jujstified by faith we have peace with god through our Lord Jesus Christ" the opposite of peace here is conflict or war! so though it is not a literal quote the opposite is just as true as the verse. And then there is JOhn 3:36 that says those not believing- the wrath of god is already abidsing on them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is not a present reality for true faithful believers in Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:1, and Ephesians 2:5 both use the words “were dead” as in reference to a believer's past life of sins. But this death does not mean that we were not capable of responding on our own to God's call.

As I pointed out to you before, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.

I never said it was true of a believer. but all unbelievers are dead in their trespasses and sins. Only believers are alive spiritually.

 

[Grailhunter]

What accusations? If I have accused you of something you feel is unfair, I will apologize (of course).
Note: A question is not always an accusation.

I am not hiding anything. The full explaination is on this forum in Grailhunter's Corner.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As I pointed out to you before, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.

Once again I cannot speak for Calvinism for I am not a Calvinist. But if you look "might be" is not in any manuscript. It is an English add on, that is unfortunate for the verb is simply" saved". It is in the Aorist Passive infinitive, So a much better rendering in todays English would be: Because they received not the love of the truth in order to be saved!

But with god there is no might! god knows the end from the beginning! For us we have a might because we simply cannot know who will and will not be saved! So for this non-Calvinist Calvinist, there is a might! Before making false assumptions about me, you should simply ask me, I will tell you.

And remember this, I came to believe what we call the five points simply from the bible Alone! After I got saved I joined an independent bible believing church that would be considered a 4 point church in this scenario, And I disagreed with my pastor who was an Armenius free willer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

YOu seem content to think god

My comment..please capitalize god to God/Elohim and it would seem that we come out guns blazing, revealing the true ego eimi.
Yeah, that was my 2 cents
Blessings
J.
Sorry for butting in, you guys and gals may continue this "debate"

Well sometimes I do and sometimes I don't capitalize words like God. I am arthritic and if I don't see underlined words for spell check, I usually simply click enter. It is no dissrepect to my King, and He knows that!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not even close.

And yet you have not offerred one bible verse for any of the five points. YOu seem content in just attacking believers who know they are biblical!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not hiding anything. The full explaination is on this forum in Grailhunter's Corner.

Okay. I have managed to try and sift through the clutter of your endless posts.
It sounds like you believe in three separate gods (Tritheism).
So then that is what you believe then?
Simply type... Y for yes,
or N... for no.
If not... have a great day, friend.

But readers who take the Bible seriously will not consider what you have to say about the Trinity because it appears like you don't think sodomy is a sin condemned in the Bible. You also don't have a problem with celebrating Halloween and tattoos?

This explains your liberal leanings involving the Bible, friend.
I am afraid we will just have to agree to disagree in love and respect and move on.
Again, as I stated before, liberals generally reject the King James Bible as the Word of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Spell check?
The verse in Timothy is by the same author and makes it clear that the clay has to decide to be cleaned. Did Paul contradict himself or are you misunderstanding what he said?
And God chose Jacob over Esau for a job, not for salvation.
And pharaoh hardened his own heart. Sure God raised him up, but he had the same choice as any person to accept or reject the true God. God could have shown his power either way.

Well once a person is saved they have free will restored! Only believers have the ability to choose or not choose to do the things of God! but that is a different subject. I am talking strictly about unsaved people. The cannot choose God as is written!

God saing us, making us a new Creature is a totally different subject than believers being obedient to teh call of God

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never said it was true of a believer. but all unbelievers are dead in their trespasses and sins. Only believers are alive spiritually.

Can a believer abide in sin and still be saved while they commit that sin?
Yes, or no?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Anyways, your view of the Trinity is like that of Mormons? They believe in three separate gods and that they act in harmony or unison as one God sort of like how three people can act in harmony or unison. Are you Mormon?

Trinitarians also believe that^. 3 persons, 1 God. Christ doesn't talk to Himself.

@Bible Highlighter , I totally respect if you don't care to understand LDS Christian beliefs. But if that's the case, then stop referencing them! Talking about things you don't understand and don't care to doesn't make your point clear at all. Instead, just explain your beliefs as your beliefs, no need to reference anyone else

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh, i do feel obligated to change my life, i have repented many a time, i have asked Jesus to save me more times than i can remember. Last yr alone, i met one on one with 2 different preachers, one baptist, the other a presbyterian. Both said i was saved.
Yet, i cannot believe that i am saved. No one can live as sinful a life as me and ever expect to actually be saved. No one can sin as often as i do, knowing full well its a sin, and still do it anyways. You cant live a life as twisted as mine and ever think that God would find favor with me.

One thing i have found repeatedly, is that i cannot stop my sinfulness from taking over. And i figure, that despite all my begging, if im not over my crazy addictions at this point, im simply not one of the elect. Why do i keep trying? I might be going to hell, but im not gonna stop trying to avoid it. At this point, im just trying to come to terms with me going to hell. Its rough some days, i’ll be honest. Yesterday was rougher than most. I couldnt even do easter with the family because i was such a wreck. But i always think back to romans 9:20, its not for me to ask why. I just accept that His will be done.

Stop clinging to the lies of Calvinism that is sending you to hell.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). It is in context to seeking our your advocate Jesus Christ. Go to Jesus right now and confess of your sins to Him. If you do.. you are forgiven of those sins. But there has to be a point in letting go of false beliefs like Calvinism that make you to doubt verses like 1 John 1:9.

God elects according to His foreknowledge (See 1 Peter 1:1-2). Meaning, God elects based on what He sees you are going to do. Meaning, it’s not an unconditional Election as Calvinism teaches.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Trinitarians also believe that^. 3 persons, 1 God. Christ doesn't talk to Himself.

@Bible Highlighter , I totally respect if you don't care to understand LDS Christian beliefs. But if that's the case, then stop referencing them! Talking about things you don't understand and don't care to doesn't make your point clear at all. Instead, just explain your beliefs as your beliefs, no need to reference anyone else

But lets get to the thread topic.
We both know there is no use discussing a topic that you will not change your mind on.
I have no interest in discussing the Mormon holy underwear religion.

 

[Johann]

Can a believer abide in sin and still be saved while they commit that sin?
Yes, or no?

@Bible Highlighter

Big difference in the STATE of the unregenerate sinning as opposed to believers committing ACTS of sin...unless, of course, you believe in sinless perfection and that the sinful nature is somehow miraculously eradicated, surgically removed?
Yes or no?
Blessings
J.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

But lets get to the thread topic.
We both know there is no use discussing a topic that you will not change your mind on.
I have no interest in discussing the Mormon holy underwear religion.

Then why do you keep referencing your twisted understanding of it, having done so 5 times today alone? Doing so only misrepresents your beliefs and mine.

Please stop. No one needs false understandings or mockery. Instead we all need truth and Christ.