John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Johann]

Sorry. Your not fooling anyone who upholds morality and what the Bible says. If Calvinism was biblical, you would be able to easily answer the questions (involving the Bible) in my post with Bible verses of your own. But like 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah 3:10, such verses will not be explained in a way that is satisfactory to what the text actually says. If Calvinism was moral, you would be able to explain the god of Calvinism and his immoral actions involving UNconditional Election. Seeing you and every other Calvinist I have run into over the years cannot do such things, I am going to continue to fight against the ridiculousness of Calvinism using both the Bible and real world examples of basic morality.

You may continue to fight it, you have lost it at Dort, actually...

So you know how Calvin actually lived?

The only person that ever proved themselves to humanity was Jesus Christ and He was murdered as a sinner by His own people.

I am talking to you...

 

[Johann]

You may continue to fight it, you have lost it at Dort, actually...


I am talking to you...

Act 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
Act 5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
Act 5:36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
Act 5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You say God desires EVERY PERSON to be saved?
Arminian..

https://prts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Canons-of-Dort-with-Intro.pdf

Arminian five points refuted.

Since I am at crossroads, can you refute this with at least two or three scriptures on each point?

Blessings
J.

Imagine somebody believes in a religion that you think is Satanic.
What if this person who believes in this Satanic religion asked you to read one of their major written works in order to refute it using the Bible?

That's kind of how I see this scenario. No offense. In other words, I don't need to read the canons of Dort (Which I believe is a Satanic writing) in order to refute Calvinism. The 5 points of Calvinism come from the canons of Dort. You take down the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) with the Bible, and it all falls down like a house of cards because that is the core of what Calvinism is about.

Calvinist Point #1 - Total Depravity (or Total Inability):

This point is basically saying that man is spiritually dead and has no ability to come to the god of Calvinism on his own without a regeneration from the god of Calvinism in order to make the person alive to be able to be be illuminated, and be saved.

First, it may surprise you that I believe in “Original Sin” (Not the Calvinistic version). I believe “Original Sin” is essentially saying that sin and or the sin nature has tainted humanity after Adam's fall. Ephesians 2:3 says we are by nature children of wrath. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” But the fallen nature that comes from Adam is not a total corruption of the human will whereby they cannot respond to God. We have free will to come to Christ on His terms (According to His Word), whereby God will then regenerate us (or convert us) (i.e. to born again spiritually) in order for us to be a new creature in Christ whereby all things become new (See: 2 Corinthians 5:17). For God argued with Cain in doing good (Genesis 4:7), and yet Cain was said to be of that wicked one (1 John 3:12). Meaning, Cain had a choice to either do good or sin. It's why God tried to convince him to not sin (Read all of Genesis 4 to get the full story).

Second, the Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40). Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you can come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you will come to Christ. Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . .how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37). Here again notice, He did not say, "How often would I have gathered you together, but you could not." No. He said, "Ye would not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would. Revelation 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible, says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely ." If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me." why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me."? The only thing that stands between the sinner and salvation is the sinner's will. God made every man a free moral agent; And God never burglarizes the human will.

Calvinist Point #2 - Unconditional Election:

This point is basically saying that the god of Calvinism Elects some to salvation based on no conditions found within the individual and those who are lost are either Non-Elected or they are Elected to Reprobation (Damnation). While Adam did make all men sinners, the god of Calvinism simply chooses to blame Adam's children for Adam's sin and not give them a chance to redeem themselves. The god of Calvinism would rather create the majority of mankind for the express purpose to simply be tortured eternally in hellfire to the good council of his will.

Again, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing not because the god of Calvinism did not Elect them to salvation but because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. This is the reason why they are perishing. Again, no conditions exist when the god of Calvinism elects a person. No reason is to be given as to why they are perishing. It's called UNconditional Election. There are no conditions as to why they are saved or not saved. The god of Calvinism simply just chooses based on no conditions. This is contrary to what we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:10. Jonah 3:10 is also another big one that refutes Unconditional Election. It is clearly talking about how God changed His mind or relented on not bringing destruction upon the Ninevites based on the fact that they had forsaken their evil ways. Also, Psalms 7:11. It says that God is angry at the wicked every day. This makes absolutely no sense involving the god of Calvinism. The real GOD of the Bible gets angry at the wicked because they have a free will choice to choose God and do what is good and yet they don't do so (Hence why God is angry). But the god of Calvinism makes God out to be like the incredible Hulk when he is on one of those uncontrollable anger rampages that destroys entire cities. Why cannot the god of Calvinism just elect men to salvation and have them do good? Why is the god of Calvinism angry? Is not the god of Calvinism sovereign over all things?

Calvinist Point #3 - Limited Atonement:

This point is basically saying that the Calvin version of Jesus only died for the Elect and he did not die for the sins of the whole world (i.e. the majority of human life).

This is easily refuted by 2 Peter 2:1, and 1 John 2:2. 2 Peter 2:1 says there are false teachers who deny the Lord who have bought them. Obviously false teachers are not saved, and yet the Lord has bought them. So either the Bible is teaching the Provisional Atonement or Universalism. Seeing Universalism (the salvation of the righteous and the wicked) is clearly a false teaching, we must conclude 2 Peter 2:1 is referring to the Provisional Atonement. 1 John 2:2 says that Christ is not only the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world. The Calvinist would have me believe that the words “whole world” is in reference to a very small chosen Elect few. Whole world does not sound like the minority or a small group. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. So the FEW are the Elect, right? If I talk about the whole world, you are not thinking of just a few people or some small group. So Calvinism is distorting the actual words in Scripture in order to make it's theology work. Also, a Calvinist preacher who says to a crowd that they can be saved is lying to them because most of them most likely cannot be saved because only a few will be saved. The Non-Elect are not capable of being saved and so the Calvinist preacher is lying to these Non-Elect.

(Continued in next post):
(Note: Source link for one paragraph I used in this post is provided in my next post).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinist Point #4 - Irresistible Grace:

This point is basically saying that the grace of the god of Calvinism cannot be resisted. But you have Calvinists who doubt their experience in being saved by Calvinistic grace, and they question whether this experience was genuine because they are not living that holy life. There are Calvinists who believe they may be one of the Non-Elect and are doomed to hell. Yet, some of them still defend Calvinism (even when their god of Calvinism has abandoned them).

Paul tells the Corinthians not to receive the grace of God in vain and then Paul talks about how we are not to be unevenly yoked with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6:14). As a part of not receiving the grace of God in vain: We are to give no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed; We are also to in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God (See: 2 Corinthians 6:3-10). Galatians 5:4 says, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” So according to Galatians 5:4, a person can fall from grace. So grace is not irresistible according to the Bible.

Calvinist Point #5 - Perseverance of the Saints:

This point (also referred to as eternal security as well as the similar but distinct doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved") is a teaching that asserts that once a person is truly "born again by the god of Calvinism,” or “regenerated by him,” nothing in heaven or earth shall be able to separate (them) from the love of the god of Calvinism (Romans 8:39) resulting in a reversal of their converted condition. Note: Please take note that I am aware that there are Non-Calvinists who hold to Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

Anyways, here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:
(Thereby refuting this point within Calvinism):

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as the Calvinist says.


Source used for one paragraph on the point involving Total Inability:
http://www.victorybaptistmg.org/Why I Disagree With All 5 Points of Calvinism.pdf

 

[praise_yeshua]

Good, good...
That's... unfortunate. I mean, I care what Jacobus Arminius said. That doesn't mean I believe what he said, but I do care about what he said...

Do you care about what I say?

Ah, so you lean upon your own understanding. Well that's kind of a problem. Meh... I'm just poking a little fun at you, PY.

Grace and peace to you.

Thank you.

I believe it is a good approach to do the work yourself. After all, I will answer for myself to Jesus Christ. Calvin nor Arminius one will answer for me.

I don't even believe that the apostle Paul will answer for me to Jesus Christ. When all of us face Jesus Christ, the argument "Paul said so" isn't going to help any of us.

Do you agree?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am talking to you...

Sure you are. I'm glad you are. Just making the point, that you can live perfectly in pleasing God yet not please many people at all.

The appeal to an outward appearance of righteousness if not very convincing given the circumstances.....

I believe Paul said much the same thing in.....

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

[reformed1689]

Because he was too young to know much of anything. When did you start listening to teenagers?

Um, he was born in 1509 and first edition was 1536 so you might want to check your facts a bit.

 

[Johann]

Calvinist Point #4 - Irresistible Grace:

This point is basically saying that the grace of the god of Calvinism cannot be resisted. But you have Calvinists who doubt their experience in being saved by Calvinistic grace, and they question whether this experience was genuine because they are not living that holy life. There are Calvinists who believe they may be one of the Non-Elect and are doomed to hell. Yet, some of them still defend Calvinism (even when their god of Calvinism has abandoned them).

Paul tells the Corinthians not to receive the grace of God in vain and then Paul talks about how we are not to be unevenly yoked with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6:14). As a part of not receiving the grace of God in vain: We are to give no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed; We are also to in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God (See: 2 Corinthians 6:3-10). Galatians 5:4 says, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” So according to Galatians 5:4, a person can fall from grace. So grace is not irresistible according to the Bible.

Calvinist Point #5 - Perseverance of the Saints:

This point (also referred to as eternal security as well as the similar but distinct doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved") is a teaching that asserts that once a person is truly "born again by the god of Calvinism,” or “regenerated by him,” nothing in heaven or earth shall be able to separate (them) from the love of the god of Calvinism (Romans 8:39) resulting in a reversal of their converted condition. Note: Please take note that I am aware that there are Non-Calvinists who hold to Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

Anyways, here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:
(Thereby refuting this point within Calvinism):

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as the Calvinist says.


Source used for one paragraph on the point involving Total Inability:
http://www.victorybaptistmg.org/Why I Disagree With All 5 Points of Calvinism.pdf

@Bible Highlighter

Thank you, will check out the scriptures.
J.

 

[reformed1689]

You said "Exactly" to someone who claimed that Calvin only gave names to what the apostles taught. Which demands the question of what value is such a statement?

Cause. Effect. You should stick with your answers and not do the "greasy pig" dance when someone answers based upon your clear position.

Yes I did say that, but that is not what you said in the post I quoted. You put forth a strawman argument.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Um, he was born in 1509 and first edition was 1536 so you might want to check your facts a bit.

You're going by the "publish" date. No need to be deceptive.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes I did say that, but that is not what you said in the post I quoted. You put forth a strawman argument.

Nope. Concrete argument.

 

[reformed1689]

Nope. Concrete argument.

I mean if you want to just lie like that, be my guest but I'm not going to let you say I said something I did not say.

 

[reformed1689]

You're going by the "publish" date. No need to be deceptive.

Not being deceptive. You made a claim and you can't back it up. Not to mention you also cannot compare today's teenagers with the teenagers of the 16th century as the same thing. Way different cultures.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I mean if you want to just lie like that, be my guest but I'm not going to let you say I said something I did not say.

I said exactly. I quoted you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter

Thank you, will check out the scriptures.
J.

Your welcome. But make sure you pray about it in being open to the truth of what God’s Word really says.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not being deceptive. You made a claim and you can't back it up. Not to mention you also cannot compare today's teenagers with the teenagers of the 16th century as the same thing. Way different cultures.

I didn't say anything about today's teens. No generation listens to teenagers. Nor do they listen to 20 something "know it all's"
Calvin was a silly boy when he wrote his works. Even worse is the fact he never once said he was wrong about anything he ever said. That is the "Hallmark" of a carnal man.

 

[reformed1689]

I said exactly. I quoted you.

The post before about 1500 years. You are trying to argue something that was not argued.

 

[reformed1689]

I didn't say anything about today's teens. No generation listens to teenagers. Nor do they listen to 20 something "know it all's"
Calvin was a silly boy when he wrote his works. Even worse is the fact he never once said he was wrong about anything he ever said. That is the "Hallmark" of a carnal man.

So do you care to actually address some sort of actual teaching that is wrong rather than ad hominems against someone who has been dead for centuries? You talk a lot but you put forth zero substance.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When you do, please get back to me in what you think those verses say.
In other words, please tell me what you think each of those verses are telling us.

I agree that these verses are about circumcision.

And Paul in Galatians 5 listed the works of the flesh and circumcisaion was not one of them.

Romans 8 is showing that we could not obey the law because the flesh is weak and cannot obey the law. Which is why one must be born spiritually, to walk in obedience.

The Law of sin and death is the 613 Laws of Moses. One could be stoned (death) if they did not keep certain laws within the law of Moses. In Romans 8:2 the law of sin and death is referring to the entirety of the 613 Laws of Moses as a package deal. The false belief of circumcision for initial salvation was one background reason why Paul was writing to the various Gentile churches. Paul did not want the Jews to to deceive any of his fellow brethren into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved or how they must keep ALL of the 613 laws of Moses (Which was a heresy that was being warned about at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15).

Capitalizing the word law does not make the law of sin and death, the law of Moses. The law of sin and death is- you sin- you die! The Mosaic Law condemns not kills, sin kills.

There was a big Jewish problem in Galatia, not so much in Rome ! REad romans 7 to understand Romans 8. In our flesh dwells no good thing! That is not the law!

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Maybe, maybe not it is rhetorical. that is a guess on your part and you should be humble enough to admit that!

but Romans 7 and the Corinthian passages Paul is speaking of himself in example and real experience.

You also forget the law empowers sin. That was its purpose to reveal the sin in our flesh! That is what Paul is getting atr!

 

[praise_yeshua]

So do you care to actually address some sort of actual teaching that is wrong rather than ad hominems against someone who has been dead for centuries? You talk a lot but you put forth zero substance.

You don't mind talking about Armininus.

Do you ever think about the counterargument to anything you say? If you did, you might not make such sloppy arguments.

To be clear. Calvin was nothing more than a carnal man. A man far too young and inexperienced to write anything about God. Much less publish something you're extoling as being equal with Truth.