Let's discuss..cessation after death?

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BarneyFife

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Let the reader now ask himself the question: Do these representations, and
this phraseology, make the impression that the future punishment of sin is
to be remedial and temporary?
Representations and phraseology, I'm not sure about.
Remedial for everyone, indeed.
Heaven would be a place of torture for the unrepentant rebels against God's government. They would find no peace there.
Temporary. Not at all. Quite final.
Sin and sinners gone

I like this account. (link)
 

BarneyFife

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As for eternal life:


1 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV
which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

These verses show God alone is immortal. And John 3:16
John 3:16

"...whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This says those that believeth are going to live forever, which means that those who do not , will not.
It's quite ironic that the verse that all Christians know by heart is the same one that contains evidence contrary to something nearly all of them believe, isn't it?
 
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Johann

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I like this account. (link)

I'll check out this link brother, my armor is bent and buckled yet there goeth I, by the grace and mercy of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
Even if I have to fight this battle alone, I do not believe in the annihilation of the soul.
"where the worm dieth not..." most will say, yes, the worm can die..to be spiritually "dead" does not mean "cease to excist"
I just pray you and I will not have our "intense moment of fellowship" and then, a great divide....
Johann.
 

BarneyFife

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I'll check out this link brother, my armor is bent and buckled yet there goeth I, by the grace and mercy of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
Even if I have to fight this battle alone, I do not believe in the annihilation of the soul.
"where the worm dieth not..." most will say, yes, the worm can die..to be spiritually "dead" does not mean "cease to excist"
I just pray you and I will not have our "intense moment of fellowship" and then, a great divide....
Johann.
I don't require anything of you, Brother.
You're a free moral agent.
Peace and love be unto you!
 
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BarneyFife

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The antithesis would be..those who do not will "live" eternally in the wrong destination.
Blessings
J.
I like the influence you have brought to this community, Johann.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It looks to me like whosoever believeth not, simply perish.

Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
NASB Translation
bring (1), destroy (17), destroyed (9), dying (1), end (1), killed (1), lose (10), loses (7), lost (14), passed away (1), perish (14), perishable (1), perished (4), perishes (1), perishing (6), put to death (1), ruined (3).
 
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amadeus

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I would think not.
J.
And based on the same verses, I would think so!
Yes? Why?
Why do I think or believe as I do?

I read nothing in the Bible that says to me that for the ones who missed the Way or went astray that there waits for them a torment which never ends. The dead are simply dead... and the dead know nothing.
 
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Johann

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It looks to me like whosoever believeth not, simply perish.

That's the way my father believed Barney and I always was at odds with him...simply perish..guess I can "live" it up then for when I die I will be destroyed, no consequences.
J.
 

Davy

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Many are uncomfortable with the topic re Hell and everlasting damnation.
Is total annihilation biblical?

Yeah, total annihilation is... Biblical.

Psalms 37
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.


Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

KJV

Ps 37:35-36
35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

KJV

Ps 37:38
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
KJV
 
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amadeus

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You did not answer my question @amadeus

You mean, in the sense that the "dead people" in hell are "unconscious?"
People are dead in the eyes of God and what else matters? He provided the opportunity for Life through Jesus, but most people it seems are not interested in the real Life. They are quite content to immerse themselves in the death which they call life, which will end soon enough, and someone will shovel the dirt over their faces.
 

Davy

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Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

This is saving me time, please read carefully and then we can discuss.

Don't need to read what men's Catholic doctrines says about that, God's Word already covered it. It is called the "second death" in Revelation 20...

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV


The second death IS... the destruction of one's spirit and soul. And that is exactly what Jesus meant in Matthew 10:28 that one should fear Him Who can destroy both body (spirit body) and soul in geena (put for the future "lake of fire" event of Rev.20:14).
 

BarneyFife

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That's the way my father believed Barney and I always was at odds with him...simply perish..guess I can "live" it up then for when I die I will be destroyed, no consequences.
J.
Everyone who believeth not suffers exactly commensurate with their deeds in the flesh, my friend. God is not mocked. They simply perish at the end of their just reward. God is just and merciful. :):):)
 

BarneyFife

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amadeus

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Dear friend, can you tell me who first started this doctrine of "Annihilation of the soul?"
If you are looking for some man's name, I do not have one. I have believed it was right for many years as per the Bible and as per God.

I put together the following verses in 2009:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE." Gen 2:17

"For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23

"He preserveth not the life of the wicked: " Job 36:6

"And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of DEATH." Jerem 21:8

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall DIE." Ezek 18:4

"For as in Adam all DIE, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I Cor 15:22

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that PERISH foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.' I Cor 1:18

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should PERISH, but that all should come to repentance." II Pet 3:9

""For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." I Cor 3:17

"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:Whose end is DESTRUCTION, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Phil 3:18-19

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap CORRUPTION; " Gal 6:8

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt 3:12

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall BURN THEM UP" Mal 4:1

"The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram.And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame BURNED UP the wicked." Psalm 106:17-18

"Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" II Thess 1:9

The following few verses raise the point you support for an 'eternal torment'

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment..." Matt 25:46

If the punishment is the wrath of God, well He never changes and yes, He does last forever. He does not mean that those punished last forever.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10

This says that the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever, but it says nothing about every wicked man.

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Rev 14:11

When someone is 'burned up' the smoke rises after the burned one is gone. He has no rest, because he did not have Jesus or the real Life that comes from God alone.

"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" Heb 4:9-11

Worms: are they man's soul or man's destroyer?

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isa 66:24

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:43-44

"Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee." Isa 14:11

"For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation." Isa 51:8

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." Job 24:19-20

There is much more, but the point is: Why do so many verses mention Die, Death, Destruction, Perish, etc. as the punishment if it is in fact eternal torment?
 
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amadeus

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Guess you have skipped important verses then.
J.
Skipped? I have been reading the whole of the Bible through repeatedly since I read it for the first time in 1976 in English. Beginning in 1978 with my first German and Spanish Bibles in hand, I began reading it through in those languages as well. My reading continues through the current day, 7 days a week. I take no days off from God. I have not skipped a word!
 

Johann

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The prospect of final punishment was never meant to be the primary motive for loving God with all the strength, heart, and mind.

Wonder why Jesus Christ Himself mentioned it...guess we need to ask God to re-write the archaic scriptures, I mean, after all, God is loving, all loving...forgetting that He is a just and Holy God?
J.:)
 

amadeus

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Oh yes, it does.
I will not argue the point with you. You are where you are. You have presented nothing that I have not already heard or read before. I read the Bible and talk to and listen to God.

I don't increase or decrease or change the beliefs or knowledge of others unless God is using me to do it.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov. 21:2

"For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:4-7

 

amadeus

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Accordingly, these texts must be read in connection with, and interpreted
by, that large clas of texts in the Old Testament which represent God as a
judge, and assert a future judgment, and a future resurrection for this
purpose. “Shall not the judge of all the earth do right.” (Genesis 18:25).
“To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense; their feet shall slide
in due time” (Deuteronomy 32:35).
“Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied of these, saying,
Behold the Lord cometh ‘with ten thousand of his saints to execute
judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them
of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed”
(Jude 14:15).
“The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be
brought forth to the day of wrath” (Job 21:30).
“The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment;
the way of the ungodly shall perish” (Psalm 1:5-6).
“Verily, he is a God that judgeth in the earth” (Psalm 58:11).
“Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy
fear, so is thy wrath” (Psalm 90:11).
“O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up
thyself, thou Judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud”
(Psalm 94:1-2).
“There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof
are the ways of death” (Proverbs 16:25).
“God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time
for every purpose, and every work” (Ecclesiastes 3:17).
“Walk in the ways of thine heart and in the sight of thine eyes; but
know thou that for all these things God will bring thee into
judgment” (Ecclesiastes 11:9).
“God shall bring every work into judgment with every secret thing,
whether it be good, or whether it be evil” (Ecclesiastes 12:14).
24
“The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the
hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with devouring fire? who
among us shall dwell with devouring burnings” (Isaiah 33:14).
Of “the men that have transgressed against God,” it is said that
their “worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched”
(Isaiah 66:24).
“I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days
did sit. His throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels like
burning fire; thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten
thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was
set, and the books were opened” (Daniel 7:9-10).
“Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting
contempt” (Daniel 12:2).
“The Lord hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob,
Surely I never will forget any of their works” (Amos 8:7).
“They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in the day when I
make up my jewels” (Malachi 3:17).
A final judgment, unquestionably, supposes a place where the sentence is
executed. Consequently, these Old Testament passages respecting the final
judgment throw a strong light upon the meaning of Sheol, and make it
certain, in the highest degree, that it denotes the world where the penalty
resulting from the verdict of the Supreme Judge is to be experienced by the
transgressor. The “wicked,” when sentenced at the last judgment, are
“turned into sheol,” as “idolaters and all liars,” when sentenced, “have
their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” (Revelation
21:8).
(2) A second proof that Sheol is the proper name for Hell, in the Old
Testament, is the fact that there is no other proper name for it in the whole
volume — or Topher is metaphorical, and rarely employed. If Sheol is not
the place where the wrath of God falls upon the transgressor, there is no
place mentioned in the Old Testament where it does. But it is utterly
improbable that the final judgment would be announced so clearly as it is
25
under the Old Dispensation, and yet the place of retributive suffering be
undesignated. In modern theology, the Judgment and Hell are correlates;
each implying the other, each standing or falling with the other. In the Old
Testament theology, the Judgment and Sheol sustain the same relations.
The proof that Sheol does not signify hell would, virtually, be the proof
that the doctrine of Hell is not contained in the Old Testament; and this
would imperil the doctrine of the final judgment. Universalism receives
strong support from all versions and commentaries which take the idea of
retribution out of the term Sheol. No texts that contain the word can be
cited to prove either a future sentence or a future suffering. They only
prove that there is a world of disembodied spirits, whose moral character
and condition cannot be inferred from anything in the signification of
Sheol; because the good are in Sheol, and the wicked are in Sheol.
J.
Eisegesis or hermeneutics or human logic is not going find anything good even in a man's Bible studies unless God is in the search and in the finding. I won't even try to use such things alone to argue a point unless God, the only good One, leads me that way. Very simply again:
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
 
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