Let's discuss..cessation after death?
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I don't think you are a nasty person but the Lord put it upon your heart to grab my attention and now you have my undivided attention.
J.
No more riddles and parables.
Actually, I’m still on the fence about eternal torment. I just don’t think that (if it exists) it is reserved for blind men, but for those who it will be worse for than for sodom. If it exists, it would be the outer darkness by what I read, which is never said to be cast into the lake of fire. But I have hoped even the outer darkness only lasts for a thousand years. I sort of hope it is the place in the parable spoken of where the man who did not forgive another’s debt was cast who won’t get out until he pays the last farthing of his own debt that had been forgiven.
Scratching my head over riddles…lol. Do you think I haven’t been speaking plainly?
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I fully agree, so let's discuss it, keeping it simple what would you say hell is?
I think you will love what the Bible really teaches about it.
aww…why?
I will find the verses and lay them out so you can follow my train of thought. It’s not kooky. It’s sort of…hidden in plain sight. I think you have the sight to see it.
Love this, keeping it simple and straightforward shooting from the shoulder, that's the way I prefer it.
I'm here to learn like I have said on numerous times, all I get is reams and reams of nonsensical jargon having learned, by experience, Satan can also quote scriptures.
I am a simpleton, just me and the scriptures and the Holy Spirit and have forgotten the art of "intelligent communication"
Reminds me of the simplicity of the scriptures confounds the wise in their own esteem.
Can you teach me Robert?
J.
My personal view is that the rejection of the eternal gift of Life offered by Jesus on the cross demands an eternal punishment by a just God. We Know from scripture the beast and the false prophet will burn in hell forever, and these are two men empowered by Satan (The Dragon) in Revelation 20:10.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
So we Know that at least two men will be tormented for "ever and ever" and we know the lake of fire is a place of eternal torment.... the question is who else gets thrown into the lake of fire? I would hope none of us, But a just God demands this of all who reject him. My advice, go to the mercy seat and find grace there that the blood of the lamb can spare you from being tormented for ever and ever.
So…the verses that brought me to my current understanding, despite still current puzzlements I have remaining.
I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day. (This a disturbing verse. It seems to say some of the religious men Jesus made Himself known to and appeared before will receive a worse fate than men who tried to do despicable things to angels, which fits with the astonishment of - but, but… Lord, we did many things in your name…When I consider how most of us think the trust we are saved by is squeaking by with trusting we will now never die but any further or growing trust is optional, like worrying over money or losing our job is just a small indiscretion of trust, it takes me back to marveling over the gracious words that He spoke but refusing the bitter words He spoke immediately after and wanting to throw Him off a cliff. I’ve done the same thing. And it ties in with being careful your own heart does not become evil and unbelieving as Israel in the desert. As Paul said, WHO did God later become displeased with and not let enter the rest He had prepared for them? Wasn’t it those He has already saved, when they didn’t continue and remain in trust when it came to temporal needs? So it’s so odd to trust Him to save your life but then stop trusting Him to see to your temporal provision. I think collecting more than enough manna for the day correlates to our hoarding of money in the idols of IRA and such. He sees the heart and what the heart is doing. It’s bitter to us to consider not storing up for when we can’t work any longer. We do just as Israel did there. We find it too scary to wonder if He will provide more supply the next day and the next day. That will be bitter to men who have retirement accounts to provide for them in their old age. They will gnash at me for saying it. But it depends more on if they trust in the account or would calmly suffer losing it in a crash because they trust God for provision rather than a stockpile.
jeez, I only covered one verse. Too many words! But when He comes again, WILL He find complete trust? Or will He find just enough of a deal to try to cheat death and nothing more?
Then there’s this parable, promising in that it doesn’t say he will never be released or will be cast into the lake of fire…sounds a bit…purgatorial rather than a swift finality. But also terrifying for a believer dealing with unforgiveness and bitterness at being treated poorly.
21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”
22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!
23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.
26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.
28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.
29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.
31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.
35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”
Then, combine it all with to whoever is given more, more will be required and with being given more stripes if you knew about it and didn’t do it and LESS stripes if you didn’t know about it and did it. A picture begins to emerge that makes our status uncomfortable and that makes it about US rather than about men still blind. And hopefully, it brings more humility, a refusal to judge others, and the realization that we obviously need more power that is not of, or in, us.
I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day. (This a disturbing verse. It seems to say some of the religious men Jesus made Himself known to and appeared before will receive a worse fate than men who tried to do despicable things to angels, which fits with the astonishment of - but, but… Lord, we did many things in your name…When I consider how most of us think the trust we are saved by is squeaking by with trusting we will now never die but any further or growing trust is optional, like worrying over money or losing our job is just a small indiscretion of trust, it takes me back to marveling over the gracious words that He spoke but refusing the bitter words He spoke immediately after and wanting to throw Him off a cliff. I’ve done the same thing. And it ties in with being careful your own heart does not become evil and unbelieving as Israel in the desert. As Paul said, WHO did God later become displeased with and not let enter the rest He had prepared for them? Wasn’t it those He has already saved, when they didn’t continue and remain in trust when it came to temporal needs? So it’s so odd to trust Him to save your life but then stop trusting Him to see to your temporal provision. I think collecting more than enough manna for the day correlates to our hoarding of money in the idols of IRA and such. He sees the heart and what the heart is doing. It’s bitter to us to consider not storing up for when we can’t work any longer. We do just as Israel did there. We find it too scary to wonder if He will provide more supply the next day and the next day. That will be bitter to men who have retirement accounts to provide for them in their old age. They will gnash at me for saying it. But it depends more on if they trust in the account or would calmly suffer losing it in a crash because they trust God for provision rather than a stockpile.
jeez, I only covered one verse. Too many words! But when He comes again, WILL He find complete trust? Or will He find just enough of a deal to try to cheat death and nothing more?
Then there’s this parable, promising in that it doesn’t say he will never be released or will be cast into the lake of fire…sounds a bit…purgatorial rather than a swift finality. But also terrifying for a believer dealing with unforgiveness and bitterness at being treated poorly.
21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”
22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!
23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.
26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.
28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.
29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.
31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.
35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”
Then, combine it all with to whoever is given more, more will be required and with being given more stripes if you knew about it and didn’t do it and LESS stripes if you didn’t know about it and did it. A picture begins to emerge that makes our status uncomfortable and that makes it about US rather than about men still blind. And hopefully, it brings more humility, a refusal to judge others, and the realization that we obviously need more power that is not of, or in, us.
[Q
It’s kind of bizarre to be constantly berated all my life for speaking too directly and untactfully and then be told by someone that I don’t speak plainly. I’m in peals of laughter at the moment…
It’s kind of bizarre to be constantly berated all my life for speaking too directly and untactfully and then be told by someone that I don’t speak plainly. I’m in peals of laughter at the moment…
The message often heard in church is, “Where is your fruit? You need to be producing fruit! Why aren’t you producing fruit?”
The branches reply, “I’m sorry. I’ll try harder this week.”
Next week, the question is asked again: “Did you bear fruit?”
And again, the response from the branches: “I tried, but failed.”
At that point, condemnation rains down. “You wicked, wicked branch!”
The inevitable result? Shame darkens the hearts of the branches, and disillusionment sets in.
How can this be the good news that Jesus proclaimed? It’s not. The teacher is putting the listener under the bondage to perform, and the listener is allowing them to do it. This is a huge misunderstanding. The responsibility of a branch is not to produce fruit, but to abide in Jesus. There is often confusion here: what does it mean to abide?
Abide as it is translated in the Bible means “to live or to dwell”. It is used as both a noun and a verb in the New Testament. How are we to understand the difference? Well, as a noun, abide communicates a stated reality of our life in Jesus. We dwell in Him. We live in Him. We always will, and nothing can ever change that.
However, when abide is used in verb form, we’re being commanded to abide. We’re being commanded to dwell in Him, to live in Him. What does that mean? How can we be commanded to do what we already are?
First, we need to understand that once we have come to faith in Jesus, we abide in Him and always will. Abiding is our default mode. It is just like breathing, it’s what we do naturally in Christ. Do you walk around focusing on your breathing all day? Hopefully not, that sounds tiring. In the same way, we do not have to go around every minute of the day questioning ourselves, “Am I abiding? Am I abiding?” If you are in Christ, you are abiding. It’s as simple as that. What glory this is!
If that is true, and it is, why did Jesus command us to abide? In my years of teaching, I’ve observed that most people struggle with the word ‘command’ here. Let’s try substituting command with ‘imperative invitation’. Jesus is calling us to make the choice to experience what we already have.
As a result of our choice to receive Christ, we possess the only true life source that can be found in the universe. However, it is clear from multiple passages in the New Testament that we can be tempted and enticed to seek life in other sources (James 1:13-15, Galatians 1:6). We can choose to override our default mode, and live in another program for seeking out life. Choosing to do so is like choosing to stop breathing. It is unnatural, and never turns out well. That’s what sin is.
The Prodigal Son is a powerful example of this. He was a son, and he had a wonderful father. All his needs were met in the relationship he shared with his dad. However, the son chose to “change programs.” He didn’t want to abide in his Father’s abode, and instead left for the far country. Bad idea.
Despite his poor choice, he never ceased to be a son - he just didn’t live or look like one. Life became very hard - and remained that way until he made the choice to go home. He returned to his Father, where he was meant to live and enjoy life. In doing so, he discovered life with his Father was far beyond what he had ever known or imagined before.
So, when Jesus gives us this “imperative invitation” to abide, He is telling us to “stay put”. He is telling us to reject the enticement of the far country and embrace deeper relationship with Him. We are to live where life is found, in Jesus.
Jesus is our Source. That’s what John 15 is all about. As the Vine, Jesus is the only one that can produce fruit, and He will produce fruit in our lives as we stay put (as we abide) in Him.
Let’s go back to our earlier scenario. The teacher in church asks, “Hey branches, are you seeing fruit in your life?”
The branches reply, “We’re trying to, but it’s not working!”
A true grace teacher will respond, “Branches, stay put in Jesus. Don’t even attempt to produce fruit. That’s His job, not yours. Dwell in the Vine, and watch as the fruit comes naturally.”
We have one simple command to follow, and it is a charge all of us MUST receive. We have an imperative invitation to live in a relationship of trust. 1 Thessalonians 5:24 says, “Faithful is He Who called you, and He will do it!”
Sounds familiar Sister?
Well then, we have circled back around to every man is born eternal rather than there being only one way to eternal life.
Starting to get the picture. All my life I was a "prodigal"
You know Frank Friedman?
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