Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[Ronald D Milam]

You have done a good job of hammering things into place that don't fit. First off, NONE OF THE SEALS ARE OPEN. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The seals will not be open until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Secondly, you don't realize that the trumpets are the wrath of God. How is that possible?
Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

You don't think this is God's wrath?

Thirdly, what are these verses and how do they fit?
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

I would be wasting my time brother. You are the most intrinsic person I have ever seen tbh.

 

[The Light]

It is the case and is the sole reason for the sealing. They are sealed before the trumpets sound and the Great Tribulation is in the 6th trump.

1. 2 Corinthians 1:22
   Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
   
   
2. Ephesians 1:13
   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
   
   
3. Ephesians 4:30
   And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
   

We are all sealed when we believe. This should tell you that the 144,000 of the 12 tribes ARE BELIEVERS IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

And as I said, if you realized that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet you would understand that Rev 14 occurs in the seals and the 144,000 are not sealed to go through the great tribulation, they are sealed as believers to be the first fruits of the second harvest. AND ARE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH.

Here's additional proof that the great tribulation is over before the wrath begins.
Rev 7
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The things that you are saying do not line up with scripture.

 

[The Light]

I would be wasting my time brother. You are the most intrinsic person I have ever seen tbh.

It's all good brother. It's just that you have made so many things up because you don't accept the written Word. As in, the 144,000 are 12000 from each tribe, JUST AS THE WORD SAYS. We don't need to make anything up. If you would just believe the written Word of God and quit making things up, you would gain understanding.

 

[ewq1938]

1. 2 Corinthians 1:22
   Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
   
   
2. Ephesians 1:13
   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
   
   
3. Ephesians 4:30
   And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We are all sealed when we believe. This should tell you that the 144,000 of the 12 tribes ARE BELIEVERS IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Those are different sealings. The seal for the 144k is unique only to them.

 

[The Light]

Those are different sealings. The seal for the 144k is unique only to them.

Well, since we can prove that the 144,000 DO NOT go through the great tribulation, I would like to see you post chapter and verse of your incorrect conclusion.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, since we can prove that the 144,000 DO NOT go through the great tribulation, I would like to see you post chapter and verse of your incorrect conclusion.

The 144k go through the Great Tribulation like all the church does. All the Christians that die in the Great Tribulation are the church. Paul said some would even survive it and be raptured. I believe that will happen to the 144k.

 

[Taken]

Now find where they preach anywhere, I challenge you, its not in the bible,

Your challenge regarding the 144,000;

“where they preach anywhere...its not in the bible”

* Prophet- a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.

* Servant of God- a person called and carries out Gods will.

Mic 4:
[1] But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Acts 2:
[17a] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...

Rev 7:
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 10:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 14:
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

In the last days, the 144,000 are His Sealed Servants the Prophets, on Mt Sion, (established) as the house of the LORD, with a Lamb, carrying out the Will of God, Teaching and Proclaiming the Will of God, TO the people who shall flow unto that Mountain.

the bible, if one reads, says they need to be PROTECTED !!

Protected, was never challenged, denied or an issue, for you to pretend it is.

, why not get on the ball and understand what God is revealing NOW brother, instead of relying on old info that was taken in by people before God was ready to reveal His end time understandings?

Reliance on OT is expressly where much of the knowledge regarding PROPHECY, foretold to come to pass IS REVEALED.

BTW...You presuming:
“God reveals HIS UNDERSTANDING “IN” SCRIPTURE”, is a fallacy.

God reveals His Prophecy Via His Prophets.
God reveals His Words Via His Servants.
God reveals His Understanding Via His Spirit.

Not my problem if you are confused by me using the world “PREACH”, regarding the 144,000...and you are not familiar with:
A “servant who is a prophet”.

 

[Davy]

Reliance on OT is expressly where much of the knowledge regarding PROPHECY, foretold to come to pass IS REVEALED.

Wow! What a FALSE statement that is!

The actual meaning of the Greek word 'apocalypse' is the 'revealing'! That's why it was translated to Revelation in the English language.

And The Book of Revelation did not originate from Apostle John, it was given to John directly by Jesus Christ, so it is NOT John's Revelation, it is Christ's Revelation!

So how could one be so silly as to think that what Lord Jesus revealed in His Revelation has to all be written back in the Old Testament prophets first???

And just so one knows, MUCH of it WAS... written first in the Old Testament Book of Isaiah, but not ALL OF IT. There's a section of Isaiah Chapters that scholars call, 'the Apocalypse of Isaiah', simply because it parallels events for the END written in Christ's Book of Revelation.

And even in the Book of Daniel, he is told to seal up the Book until the END, that only in the END would the visions Daniel were given would then be understood. Christ's Book of Revelation is a lot about those Daniel visions, but not all of Revelation is.

Thus the REASON why it is called Revelation is because Jesus revealed NEW THINGS that were NOT revealed in the OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS. So attempting to say that if a prophetic event in Revelation isn't covered in the Old Testament, then it can't be true, is just idiotic.

 

[Taken]

Wow! What a FALSE statement that is!

The actual meaning of the Greek word 'apocalypse' is the 'revealing'!

Kudos Davy OUT OF CONTEXT!

Already identified the OT.
OT is where much of Prophecy is revealed that SHALL come to pass.
Obviously if it hasn’t come to pass What the prophecy is has NOT occurred, merely the knowledge of the Prophecy!

So attempting to say that if a prophetic event in Revelation isn't covered in the Old Testament, then it can't be true, is just idiotic.

So is taking out of context.

 

[Davy]

Kudos Davy OUT OF CONTEXT!

Already identified the OT.
OT is where much of Prophecy is revealed that SHALL come to pass.
Obviously if it hasn’t come to pass What the prophecy is has NOT occurred, merely the knowledge of the Prophecy

So is taking out of context.

What I said is NOT out of context. What you infer is... out of context of The Bible, particularly Christ's Book of Revelation.

It is totally silly... to think that all prophecies given in The New Testament had to have come from The Old Testament Books first.

 

[Taken]

What I said is NOT out of context.

Yes what you said is out of context.

What you infer is... out of context of The Bible, particularly Christ's Book of Revelation.

No.

It is totally silly... to think that all prophecies given in The New Testament had to have come from The Old Testament Books first.

Your own remark, and you own calling your remark silly, with emphasis ...

For the elementary minded.
Much (which does not mean all) of what shall come to pass (which mean has not occurred, also called Prophecy) is revealed (which means is told) is in the OT (which means Old Testament.)

The OT is a valuable source that reveals much Prophecy that shall come to pass.

The NT is a valuable source that reveals much Prophecy IN THE OT that HAS come to pass.

Nothing new, still trying to rewrite what others say, then accuse others for what you say.

If you do not understand what an other is saying.....ASK.
You writing FOR others, is deceptive.

 

[The Light]

The 144k go through the Great Tribulation like all the church does. All the Christians that die in the Great Tribulation are the church. Paul said some would even survive it and be raptured. I believe that will happen to the 144k.

These are just empty words with no scriptural support. I also noticed that you were unable to produce any scripture to support a made up conclusion that the sealing of the 144,000 was any different than the sealing that every believer receives.

As for the Church going through the great tribulation, the scripture says we can escape ALL THE THINGS that come to pass. So what you are saying is not supported by the scripture.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Here is the great tribulation in Rev 14
Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the 144,000 being redeemed from the earth BEFORE the great tribulation.
Rev 14
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The things you claim are not supported by what the scripture says.

 

[n2thelight]

Will the Holy Spirit be on the earth after the rapture ?

 

[The Light]

Will the Holy Spirit be on the earth after the rapture ?

Sure.

 

[Davy]

Will the Holy Spirit be on the earth after the rapture ?

I'll pass on that question, since you well know I know the answer, and it ain't about a pre-trib rapture.

 

[The Light]

I'll pass on that question, since you well know I know the answer, and it ain't about a pre-trib rapture.

Yes you are correct. There will be a pre-tribulation rapture, but that does not change the answer to the question.

 

[Timtofly]

The bible doesn't say anything about that regarding the 144k. They are sealed before the Great Tribulation so they were saved Christians before the sealing.

If these are Christians on earth, why are the rest in heaven? The rest of Revelation 7.

Why are there only 144k on earth, but many without number in heaven? Why cannot they not be those from Israel directly chosen by God outside of the church already gathered in heaven at the 6th Seal?

You seem to define the Seals by chapter 7, then change what chapter 7 even states to interpret the Seals. The Seals explain the Seals, then we move on to chapter 7. The Seals are done and over with before the 1st Trumpet can even start.

 

[Timtofly]

Mmmmm. They were sealed when they believed. Just are we are sealed when we believe.

The words say they were sealed by an angel sent to seal them.

Your scenario would indicate the angel had to wait until the person started to believe. As written, they were given no choice, so how could they be sealed based on their belief?

God sealed them before they could believe. That God sealed them resulted in their belief. Their belief was not the agent of why they were sealed.

The fact they were sealed on earth after the church was removed and found in heaven, indicates they were not part of the church by choice. If they were the church, they would have already been in heaven like those in the rest of Revelation 7.

These are the firstfruits, directly chosen and redeemed for a particular purpose. Like the original 12 who were the firstfruits of the NT church, these 144k are disciples and firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. That is really all we need to know. The church will not be on earth at the same time as the 144k. Chapter 7 declares the church is in heaven, and the 144k are on earth during the Trumpets and the Thunders.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

If they were not sealed, but needed sealed, how could they be the church prior to being sealed? They are servants of God, but only after being sealed. That is what the 12 disciples were. Were the original 12 servants of God before they were chosen by Jesus, or after? The verse does not say:

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed those saints left behind in their foreheads, so they are not hurt after being left behind."

Revelation 7 implies that if these 144k are not sealed, Jesus would not have disciples, and these 144k would have been judged and destroyed along with all the rest of humanity left on earth.

The only other point is that Jesus at the Second Coming has ended the fulness of the Gentiles, and has returned to work directly with His people the house of Jacob. The multitude seen in heaven was the fulness of the Gentiles harvest. The 6th Seal was the completion of Paul's point in those presented to God at the Second Coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

This is completed at the 6th Seal. The Seals deal directly with those named in the Lamb's book of life. It is the Lamb's book of life that is being unsealed. Revelation 5. Once the seals are removed, names will be removed, and no longer sealed in the book. They will be sealed directly in one's forehead from that point on. BTW, the mark of the beast is the brand given to those who have been removed from the Lamb's book of life who are not sealed in their foreheads by God. They are sealed into Death and the LOF.

Currently we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, because we accept we are sealed in the Lamb's book of life, that is covered by the Atonement. We are not sealed when we believe. We were already sealed in the Lamb's book of life before creation itself. We only believe because we have already been redeemed. Belief does not save us. It is more, rejecting God condemns us. The devils believe and tremble, but most assuredly they are not redeemed. James 2:19.

 

[Timtofly]

That certainly reveals your Biblical illiteracy...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

The symbolic "weeks" in Daniel 9 (KJV) represent periods of SEVEN YEARS.

The "vile person" of Daniel 11 is who is to end the sacrifices, and place the "abomination that maketh desolate" for the end of this world. That "league" is thus the SEVEN YEARS PACT OR AGREEMENT OR TREATY, or whatever you want to call it, that is MADE IN FUTURE JERUSALEM for the end.

Jesus is the only Atonement and His ministry on earth will cover a 7 year period.

But Daniel 9:27 is a week of days, the 7th Trumpet, not even the ministry of Jesus. There has not been utter desolation, but this desolation can only happen in the midst of a week of days, not years. There is not 3.5 years after this utter desolation. There will be a 1,000 year reign after this 42 months of utter desolation. There will be 3.5 days between this 42 months of utter desolation and the battle of Armageddon. The same 3.5 days found in Revelation 11, when the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. That is a week of days. They do not lie dead for another 3.5 years.

No, the Revelation 7 Chapter is pointing to those just PRIOR to end, which DEFINITELY INVOLVES THE GREAT TRIBULATION that Jesus forewarned about for the very END.

The WHOLE Revelation 7 Chapter is about the SEALED SAINTS. And since the 144,000 we are told is about A SPECIFIC REMNANT SEED of the 12 tribes of Israel..., uh.... where's mention of Gentiles being SEALED? Duh...!

All one need do is just USE their brain God gave us! Think a little about what His Word says as written, and definitely do not listen to men's traditions.

Since only 12,000 of each of those 12 tribes of Israel are mentioned, making up those 144,000, that means WE CANNOT ADD GENTILES INTO THOSE.

So where's mention of the Gentiles that are SEALED by The Holy Spirit? And that is what that SEALING is, per Scripture like Ephesians 1:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:22.

The SEALED Gentiles aren't mentioned in Revelation 7 until verse 9 as the "great multitude". And John saw those too standing at the Throne, just like the 144,000 are shown standing next to Jesus in Revelation 14 after His future return.

That REVEALS the "great multitude" of Gentiles are also SEALED to GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION ALSO, just like the 144,000 of the SEED of Israel that are SEALED in prep to go through the GREAT TRIBULATION for the end.

The whole church from the last 6,000 years is that great multitude in Revelation 7. No one is left out. Yet the 144k are still on earth, not counted in the multitude already in heaven. If you claim Abel is part of the church, then the 144k are as well. The difference is Abel is already there. The 144k are still on earth. All have been redeemed, but not all the church will be glorified at the Second Coming.

Looking at Revelation 7 again about those SEALED servants...

BOTH, the 144,000 seed of Israel, and... the "great multitude" (Gentiles), represent CHRIST'S CHURCH for the end.

IF... one tries to say the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are RAPTURED prior to the "great tribulation", and the 144,000 of the seed of Israel only go through the trib, then that FALSE IDEA would DESTROY the makeup of Christ's Church! Because many lost ten tribe Israelites make up Christ's Church today! And not only ten tribe Israelites, because there are many Jewish converts to Christ's Church also today!

It would be like saying Israelite believers on Jesus are not WORTHY to be raptured along with believing Gentiles! That is how STUPID the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is! By saying the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are the raptured Church prior to the great trib, that leaves out Israelite believers in Christ's Church.

This is only jumping to conclusions. Did the resurrection of the OT out of Abraham's bosom into Paradise shatter the church? Did God force all the OT to live again in sin on earth for the last 1992 years? Forcing all of Paradise to go through the tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders is a ridiculous notion. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. They live for 1,000 years without ever dying.

Is God unjust letting 144k to have the blessing of living on earth with Christ for 1,000 years?

 

[Timtofly]

The mostly Gentile Church will be raptured BEFORE the seals are opened. The pre 70th week rapture is the truth as the Lord promises we can escape ALL THE THINGS that occur in the 70th week of Daniel, starting with the beginning of sorrows.

The great multitude contains both the Church(raptured pretrib) and the 12 tribes across the earth(raptured prewrath). Only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers are on the earth during Gods wrath which begins with the 1st trumpet and ends with the 7th trumpet. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. It is also the rapture. The church is removed prior to the 7th Seal and the book being opened. The rapture and Second Coming do not happen until after the first 4 Seals though. The time allowed for the Trumpets and Thunders keeps getting shorter. The time of the Seals being opened keeps getting longer. Thus more are taken as the church prior to the Second Coming. The harvest is longer in favor of the elect, the church. Less in favor of being placed in Death and the LOF.

The church being prepared now is having a bountiful harvest and not in giving up of the spreading of the gospel. Remaining faithful is more about proclaiming the Gospel, as doing that will keep one's mind off the world. Just avoiding sin is not the point. That all would avoid God's judgment and wrath is the point.

This is the pertinent question:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Only the church can stand faithful until that point. Being a part of the church and being redeemed is the only answer. The church is prepared when the majority on earth is prepared to stand. If the church is not prepared, they are only worried about paying bills and staying alive.