Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[quietthinker]

Tribulation Saints? A Contraction
happens every time new ones are born

 

[Taken]

No, what you did is imply that, what the 144,000 are is the Jews who repent

No. I believe the 144,000 are 12,000 each of every tribe of Israel, who preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those who go to Mt.Zion.

and I state why God uses the numbers in a very detailed manner which makes Rev. 10 irrelevant anyway. We are all servants of Gid, but the 144,000 will be in a very different place, they need God's PROTECTION for 1260 days so they will be doing nothing for God purpose for those 1260 days, their purpose is to repopulate Israel, and to be the Kingdom Jesus was promised, the Kingdom Age he preached which was to come.

Don’t agree Rev 10 is irrelevant.
Don’t agree God revealing numbers of things makes Rev. 10 irrelevant.

What Scripture lead you to believe the 144,000’s purpose is to repopulate Israel?

God uses numbers throughout the Old Testament, if you do not know this its on you,

Already mentioned the 12 TWELVE Tribes of Israel....pretty sure 12 is a number, and revealed in the OT.

I am way more advanced on Eschatology it seems than you are.

Hope you didn’t dislocate your shoulder with that self kudos back pat.

If you really try to say Gid doesn't use numbers

Already revealed God did use numbers, and never said He didn’t.

I can blow you out of the waters on that.

No worries, I’m a land creature.

 

[The Light]

No, the second coming is DESCRIBED IN THE 6TH SEAL. The second coming OCCURS AT THE 7TH TRUMP.

You have done a good job of hammering things into place that don't fit. First off, NONE OF THE SEALS ARE OPEN. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The seals will not be open until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Secondly, you don't realize that the trumpets are the wrath of God. How is that possible?
Rev 8
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

You don't think this is God's wrath?

Thirdly, what are these verses and how do they fit?
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

The bible doesn't say anything about that regarding the 144k. They are sealed before the Great Tribulation so they were saved Christians before the sealing.

Mmmmm. They were sealed when they believed. Just are we are sealed when we believe.

 

[The Light]

No, what you did is imply that, what the 144,000 are is the Jews who repent and I state why God uses the numbers in a very detailed manner which makes Rev. 10 irrelevant anyway. We are all servants of Gid, but the 144,000 will be in a very different place, they need God's PROTECTION for 1260 days so they will be doing nothing for God purpose for those 1260 days, their purpose is to repopulate Israel, and to be the Kingdom Jesus was promised, the Kingdom Age he preached which was to come.

The 144,000 do not have a purpose to repopulate Israel. God tells EXACTLY what their purpose is. We don't need to dream things up. They are the first fruits of the second harvest. First fruits are presented to God and when accepted there will be a harvest to follow. If the firstfruits are of the 12 tribes of Israel, the harvest will be of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Davy]

Folks just aren't paying attention to what they read.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are to happen during the generation that will 'see' Jesus' future return. That is the ONLY time limitation for when the Seals begin to be opened, i.e., it MUST be for the final generation on earth. Per the parable of the fig tree prophecy, that generation began when God brought Judah back to the holy land and did not remove them again. That prophecy in Jeremiah 24 puts that generation in the era of 1948 when Israel became a nation again in the middle east.

Jesus gave ONLY 7 Signs of the very end for the final generation in His Olivet discourse. The last Sign He gave was that of His future return as a thief.

Those 7 Signs are the SAME Revelation signs, the 7 Seals, the 7 Trumpets, and the 7 Vials. They happen in parallel, not in serial order. The false Messiah comes on 666, and Jesus returns on 777.

Thus study in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 goes along with study in Revelation about the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials.

 

[Davy]

The point constantly repeated over and over ad nauseum is a 7 year treaty, that exists nowhere in Scripture.

That certainly reveals your Biblical illiteracy...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

The symbolic "weeks" in Daniel 9 (KJV) represent periods of SEVEN YEARS.

The "vile person" of Daniel 11 is who is to end the sacrifices, and place the "abomination that maketh desolate" for the end of this world. That "league" is thus the SEVEN YEARS PACT OR AGREEMENT OR TREATY, or whatever you want to call it, that is MADE IN FUTURE JERUSALEM for the end.

 

[Davy]

Coming out of great tribulation is all those martyred in the last 1992 years.

The tribulation of those days is the first 4 Seals being opened. The Second Coming is immediately after those days. Which means the opening of the first 4 Seals as Prince starts the 3.5 year countdown until the 7th Trumpet. The Seals are not a long drawn out process of the church age.

The 144k are on earth with Jesus and the angels during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The 144k and Christ are only on Mt. Zion, if Satan is given 42 months. If no 42 months, then no waiting on Mt. Zion. The Millennium will start when the 7 Trumpet stops either way.

Matthew 25:31 has Jesus as Prince sitting on His throne in Jerusalem at the Second Coming. The 144k are always the camp of the saints. The ones overcome, who retreat in Revelation 13. The ones surrounded at the end of the 1,000 years in Revelation 20. They are the firstfruits redeemed between the 6th and 7th Seals being opened. They are the Millennium disciples, just like the original 12 were His disciples in the first century. They were OT redeemed, who started the NT church. The 144k are redeemed between the 6th and 7th Seal, but are the tribulation and Millennium saints as the firstfruits and disciples of Christ who will never physically die ever. When sealed, they receive their permanent incorruptible physical body, removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is the literal point of symbolically being sealed.

The 5th Seal is symbolic of the whole church being glorified. The joining of the spirit around the physical body. The putting on of immortality as Paul describes at the Second Coming. This is the restoration of the full image of God as sons of God, soul, body, and spirit. The 5th and 6th Seal is John's version of the Second Coming written symbolically. Compared to Paul's version that is literal from an earthly perspective, John's view is symbolic from a heavenly perspective.

Might as well produce your own TV show with the rest of the nutty ideas out there.

 

[Davy]

It says they come out of great tribulation, not The Great Tribulation. That is Matthew 24:9-14

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

No, the Revelation 7 Chapter is pointing to those just PRIOR to end, which DEFINITELY INVOLVES THE GREAT TRIBULATION that Jesus forewarned about for the very END.

The WHOLE Revelation 7 Chapter is about the SEALED SAINTS. And since the 144,000 we are told is about A SPECIFIC REMNANT SEED of the 12 tribes of Israel..., uh.... where's mention of Gentiles being SEALED? Duh...!

All one need do is just USE their brain God gave us! Think a little about what His Word says as written, and definitely do not listen to men's traditions.

Since only 12,000 of each of those 12 tribes of Israel are mentioned, making up those 144,000, that means WE CANNOT ADD GENTILES INTO THOSE.

So where's mention of the Gentiles that are SEALED by The Holy Spirit? And that is what that SEALING is, per Scripture like Ephesians 1:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:22.

The SEALED Gentiles aren't mentioned in Revelation 7 until verse 9 as the "great multitude". And John saw those too standing at the Throne, just like the 144,000 are shown standing next to Jesus in Revelation 14 after His future return.

That REVEALS the "great multitude" of Gentiles are also SEALED to GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION ALSO, just like the 144,000 of the SEED of Israel that are SEALED in prep to go through the GREAT TRIBULATION for the end.

 

[Davy]

And here is another matter which PROVES the "great multitude" of Gentiles in Revelation 7 and the 144,000 of the SEED of Israel are BOTH TOGETHER SEALED by The Holy Spirit in prep to go through the "great tribulation" that Jesus warned of...

It's the subject of the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel.

1. God removed the ten northern tribes of Israel out of the holy land to the lands of Assyria and the Medes. There was none left in the land but the southern kingdom of Judah. (2 Kings 17).

2. The ten tribes were known by other names while captive in Assyria, as discovered on the Behistun Rock mountain carving in Iraq, and on the Jehu Steele, and in the cuneiform clay tablets of The Royal Correspondence of the Assyrian Empire, translated by Prof. Leroy Waterman of the University of Michigan in the 1930s. The Assyrian name for the ten tribes of Israel was Khumri on Shalmaneser's Black Obelisk, with the Babylonian version being Gimri. Historians identified the Gimri as the Cimmerian tribes that migrated into Asia Minor and Europe and became the western nations.

3. In Romans 9:24-26, Apostle Paul preaching to Roman Gentile believers on Jesus Christ, pointed to prophecy in the Book of Hosea which was originally written 'only' about the ten northern tribes of Israel. Paul was thus including BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles as making up CHRIST'S CHURCH.

4. In Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath in the year 1320 A.D., they mention their origins from Israel, having dwelt in greater Scythia (Scythians were another branch of the ten scattered tribes of Israel), and then dwelt for a time in Spain, having come to Scotland twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea. (https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/research/NRS_DoA_English_booklet_700_Spreads_WEB.pdf)

5. Thus the Western Christian Nations represent where The Gospel would be preached and accepted on national scales, thus fulfilling the Genesis 35 and Genesis 48 prophecies that Jacob's seed would become "a company of nations", and that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations".

6. Apostle Paul realized this; the majority of the scattered ten tribes of Israel among the Gentiles with BOTH together becoming Christ's Church in the western Christian nations (and more as The Gospel then went out from there to other nations). Paul quoting to Roman Gentile believers in Romans 9 is proof that he understood this, having quoted from the Hosea prophecy about the ten scattered tribes of Israel, and including believing Gentiles.

7. In Ephesians 2, Apostle also pointed to the fulfillment of those prophecies of scattered Israel in The Gospel along with Gentiles, when Paul labeled Christ's Church as the "commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2:11-13).

 

[Davy]

Looking at Revelation 7 again about those SEALED servants...

BOTH, the 144,000 seed of Israel, and... the "great multitude" (Gentiles), represent CHRIST'S CHURCH for the end.

IF... one tries to say the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are RAPTURED prior to the "great tribulation", and the 144,000 of the seed of Israel only go through the trib, then that FALSE IDEA would DESTROY the makeup of Christ's Church! Because many lost ten tribe Israelites make up Christ's Church today! And not only ten tribe Israelites, because there are many Jewish converts to Christ's Church also today!

It would be like saying Israelite believers on Jesus are not WORTHY to be raptured along with believing Gentiles! That is how STUPID the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is! By saying the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are the raptured Church prior to the great trib, that leaves out Israelite believers in Christ's Church.

 

[The Light]

Thus study in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 goes along with study in Revelation about the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 parallel the 7 seals which are the 70th week of Daniel and are not yet open. After the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars, the wrath of God begins which is the trumpets and a different view of Gods wrath in the vials.

 

[The Light]

Looking at Revelation 7 again about those SEALED servants...

BOTH, the 144,000 seed of Israel, and... the "great multitude" (Gentiles), represent CHRIST'S CHURCH for the end.

IF... one tries to say the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are RAPTURED prior to the "great tribulation", and the 144,000 of the seed of Israel only go through the trib, then that FALSE IDEA would DESTROY the makeup of Christ's Church! Because many lost ten tribe Israelites make up Christ's Church today! And not only ten tribe Israelites, because there are many Jewish converts to Christ's Church also today!

It would be like saying Israelite believers on Jesus are not WORTHY to be raptured along with believing Gentiles! That is how STUPID the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is! By saying the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are the raptured Church prior to the great trib, that leaves out Israelite believers in Christ's Church.

The mostly Gentile Church will be raptured BEFORE the seals are opened. The pre 70th week rapture is the truth as the Lord promises we can escape ALL THE THINGS that occur in the 70th week of Daniel, starting with the beginning of sorrows.

The great multitude contains both the Church(raptured pretrib) and the 12 tribes across the earth(raptured prewrath). Only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers are on the earth during Gods wrath which begins with the 1st trumpet and ends with the 7th trumpet. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

 

[The Light]

Looking at Revelation 7 again about those SEALED servants...
It would be like saying Israelite believers on Jesus are not WORTHY to be raptured along with believing Gentiles! That is how STUPID the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is! By saying the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are the raptured Church prior to the great trib, that leaves out Israelite believers in Christ's Church.

You make a good point. However, if you understood, you would realize that the Church is raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes are raptured prewrath. Just as the word says. The fig tree has two harvests.

 

[Davy]

The mostly Gentile Church will be raptured BEFORE the seals are opened.

That is Absolutely FALSE, and I showed why in my previous posts.

And you're being careful to add that "mostly" adverb is TELLING!

For those who understand God's Word about His prophecy of how the ten scattered tribes of Israel would wind up, the MAJORITY OF THE HISTORICAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH has been made up of SCATTERED ISRAELITES.

 

[The Light]

That is Absolutely FALSE, and I showed why in my previous posts.

And you're being careful to add that "mostly" adverb is TELLING!

For those who understand God's Word about His prophecy of how the ten scattered tribes of Israel would wind up, the MAJORITY OF THE HISTORICAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH has been made up of SCATTERED ISRAELITES.

This is what you think, which has absolutely nothing to do with what the Word says. Yeah, mostly is telling....telling the truth. The 144,000 is also telling. They are the first fruits of the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal.......just like the Word says. Blindness and ignorance to the truth is not going to change a thing.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[ewq1938]

Mmmmm. They were sealed when they believed. Just are we are sealed when we believe.

All 144k just happened to believe at the same exact moment? No. They were saved believers and God chooses to seal them to protect them during the Great Tribulation. It means they cannot be deceived, possibly also keeping them from being killed.

 

[The Light]

All 144k just happened to believe at the same exact moment? No. They were saved believers and God chooses to seal them to protect them during the Great Tribulation. It means they cannot be deceived, possibly also keeping them from being killed.

I know that you think that the 144,000 are sealed to go through the great tribulation, but that is not the case. Due to the fact that you do not understand that when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, the WRATH OF GOD IS OVER. Armageddon has happened and Jesus has set up His kingdom. What you see in Rev 14 occurs in the seals BEFORE the great tribulation. The great tribulation is the 5th seal. It is also found in Rev 14

This is the great tribulation in the 5th seal
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is the great tribulation in Rev14.
Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal and the beginning of the wrath of God.
Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is the same coming of Jesus in Rev 14 and the wrath of God beginning.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

What you call unactionable events of the seals are the actionable events of the 70th week of Daniel.

In conclusion, the tribulation is over BEFORE the wrath of God begins...as the Word clearly shows. Also, the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth as firstfruits before the great tribulation. One of your many errors is thinking that the trumpets are not the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

I know that you think that the 144,000 are sealed to go through the great tribulation, but that is not the case.

It is the case and is the sole reason for the sealing. They are sealed before the trumpets sound and the Great Tribulation is in the 6th trump.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No. I believe the 144,000 are 12,000 each of every tribe of Israel, who preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those who go to Mt.Zion.

Now find where they preach anywhere, I challenge you, its not in the bible, the bible, if one reads, says they need to be PROTECTED !!

Rev. 7:1 And after these (After 6 Seals are opened BUT before the 7th Seal releases God's Wrath) things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth(Winds = Judgment), that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (The TRUMPS hurt what? The Earth, Sea and Trees !! This can not be any more evident, God has ordered the Judgements to be HELD UP, in order to PROTECT these people He's about to call the 144,000)

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God(Psstt, we are ALL SEALED by the Holy Spirit when we get saved): and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

So, the NEED PROTECTION, because they are Human Beings who REPENT just like Zechariah 13:8-9 says they do, 1/3 REPENT just before the Day of the Lord as seen in the very next verse in Zechariah 14:1. And here we see the 144,000 are SEALED (Repent) and it happens just BEFORE God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8 !!

You can believe as you please, but I am correct, and will be shown to be correct in Heaven, you will understand it instantly on your way during the Pre Trib Rapture. These have the name of the Father in their foreheads, meaning they are married to God.

Don’t agree Rev 10 is irrelevant.

It is irrelevant to the TMELINE because it is a Parenthetical Citation Chapter.

What Scripture lead you to believe the 144,000’s purpose is to repopulate Israel?

Because they are the Jews who Repent, the 1/3 seen in Zechariah 13:8-9. they are the 7000 God has saved Himself, they are The Woman in Rev. 12, they are ALL Israel who flees Judea unto the Petra Bozrah area. Jesus preached his coming Kingdom to Israel, he will rule in Israel for 1000 years. Human Beings in his Kingdom Age will produce children. Understanding who the 144,000 is no great shakes tbh. She is the 1/3, the 7000, the the 144,000 AND the Woman.

Already mentioned the 12 TWELVE Tribes of Israel....pretty sure 12 is a number, and revealed in the OT.

Yes, 12 = Fulness, and 10= Completeness. You don't really think God just chooses 144,000 men do you? He speaking in terms just like Jesus did via the 10 Virgin Brides which = 2 Billion people, of which only 1 billion or so make the Rapture/Wedding, the other 5 (1 billion) will be shut out.

Its simply God speak, in a book full of codes.

Hope you didn’t dislocate your shoulder with that self kudos back pat.

You want me to lie?

Already revealed God did use numbers, and never said He didn’t.

So, why not get on the ball and understand what God is revealing NOW brother, instead of relying on old info that was taken in by people before God was ready to reveal His end time understandings?