Tribulation Saints? A Contradiction

[The Light]

The words say they were sealed by an angel sent to seal them.

Your scenario would indicate the angel had to wait until the person started to believe. As written, they were given no choice, so how could they be sealed based on their belief?

God sealed them before they could believe. That God sealed them resulted in their belief. Their belief was not the agent of why they were sealed.

Ok. I'm going to have to agree with you. I believe that you are correct in your answer. Well done.

The fact they were sealed on earth after the church was removed and found in heaven, indicates they were not part of the church by choice.

It indicates that the rapture of the Church has happened, the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, and God is turning His attention to His Chosen.

If they were the church, they would have already been in heaven like those in the rest of Revelation 7.

They are of course, not the Church. I don't think you will be able to follow this, but I will try. You believe that the great multitude in Rev 7 is the Church. You also believe that the rapture of the Church happens with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

The Church is only PART of the great multitude in Rev 7. The twelve tribes across the earth are also part of the multitude and that includes the 144,000. So, I'm telling that the 144,000 do not go through the wrath of God even though they are sealed and it appears that they will be protected at the 5th trumpet of Gods wrath. The 144,000 are part of the great multitude and never enter the period of God's wrath.

Chapter 7 declares the church is in heaven, and the 144k are on earth during the Trumpets and the Thunders.

It certainly appears that the 144,000 are on earth during the trumpets, but they are not. Let's see if you can keep up.


Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (1st seal Rider on the white horse. 7th king. An Antichrist.)

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:(2nd seal red horse. Peace taken from the earth)see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines (3rd seal black horse, and pestilences(4th seal pale horse, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation(5th seal), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(6th seal)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus tells us what will happen in the end times in Matthew 24. John tells us what will happen during the same time frame in Revelation 6. They both agree, as they should.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If we can escape ALL THESE THINGS, that means that the Church will escape not only the great tribulation but also the beginning of sorrows(the 1st 4 seals). This means that the Church will be in heaven BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED.

This is why we see the 24 elders in heaven with their crowns.

Rev 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And why we see kings and priests around the throne in Rev 5, BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPEN.

Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So that rapture that you see at the 6th seal is NOT THE CHURCH. It is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. The Church will already be in heaven before the seals are opened and they will be gathered FROM HEAVEN. The twelve tribes will be gathered FROM THE EARTH.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

We also know that this gathering from heaven and earth which is the great multitude, happens BEFORE the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[The Light]

Chapter 7 declares the church is in heaven, and the 144k are on earth during the Trumpets and the Thunders.

As to the 144,000 they never enter the trumpets which is the wrath of God. They are the first fruits of the harvest at the 6th seal which mean they are already in heaven BEFORE the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal in Rev 14

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 which occurs after the great tribulation. This is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. And note that at the end of this coming of Jesus, the WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. This is just like what happens at the 6th seal.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Those are the facts. Let's see if you are as smart as I think you are.

 

[The Light]

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal.

Agreed.

It is also the rapture.

It is "A" rapture.

The church is removed prior to the 7th Seal

The Church is removed BEFORE THE 1ST SEAL is opened.

The rapture and Second Coming do not happen until after the first 4 Seals though.

The Church is already in heaven before the 1st seal is opened. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God will turn His attention to His Chosen and regraft them into the olive tree.

BTW, The fig tree has two harvests, Jacob had two brides, Leah and the chosen bride Rachel.

This is the pertinent question:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Only the church can stand faithful until that point. Being a part of the church and being redeemed is the only answer. The church is prepared when the majority on earth is prepared to stand. If the church is not prepared, they are only worried about paying bills and staying alive.

The Church will be in heaven before the seals are open, before the 70th week of Daniel, as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth will be in heaven BEFORE the wrath of God. God originally saw the Israel as the 1st harvest, but they served other Gods.

Hos 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her 1st time. That means that God saw the fathers as the 1st fruits of the first harvest. However, they served other Gods and would not be the 1st harvest. The Church will be the 1st harvest. After the harvest of the Church and the fullness of the Gentiles coming, blindness will be removed from part of Israel. That is why you see 144,000 first fruits in Revelation.

 

[Davy]

Jesus is the only Atonement and His ministry on earth will cover a 7 year period.

Be truthful... your actually into the OCCULT, right??

You must be, since your Bible understanding is so far out in left field.

 

[Timtofly]

Be truthful... your actually into the OCCULT, right??

You must be, since your Bible understanding is so far out in left field.

So a cult is accepting that Jesus was the Atonement? What then is the Gospel?

Does your cult teach against Jesus actually returning to earth, and what, sitting around doing nothing?

Jesus did an earthly ministry for 3.5 years, no?

Do you think Jesus will not finish wrapping up what He started with His people, Israel, after the fulness of the Gentiles, or just kill every one? Now killing everyone sounds like a cult. Jim Jones for instance, certainly not a great earthly ministry. Sitting around killing every one, sure.

Do you think that I am farther from the Word of God than you are? You are into the "occult", with your number system, as occult works with numbers and mystical arrangement of facts, no?

Still mystified how stating Jesus is the only Atonement is being "into the occult". And 666, 777, 555 is not.

 

[n2thelight]

Really trying to figure out how y'all get raptured before the tribulation when Christ himself says he returns after ,can someone help me out ?

 

[n2thelight]

If these are Christians on earth, why are the rest in heaven? The rest of Revelation 7.

Why are there only 144k on earth, but many without number in heaven? Why cannot they not be those from Israel directly chosen by God outside of the church already gathered in heaven at the 6th Seal?

You seem to define the Seals by chapter 7, then change what chapter 7 even states to interpret the Seals. The Seals explain the Seals, then we move on to chapter 7. The Seals are done and over with before the 1st Trumpet can even start.

The seals are not in order,as a matter of fact Mark 13 gives us all of them

 

[n2thelight]

The fact they were sealed on earth after the church was removed and found in heaven, indicates they were not part of the church by choice. If they were the church, they would have already been in heaven like those in the rest of Revelation 7.

The only way one gets to heaven before the return of Christ is to die first .
Those sealed are the elect the rest will take the mark .

 

[n2thelight]

I'll pass on that question, since you well know I know the answer, and it ain't about a pre-trib rapture.

I know where you stand ,was asking those who believe this false doctrine as I've had yes and no answers from them.

 

[n2thelight]

Who was Matthew 24 and Mark 13 written to?

 

[n2thelight]

The problem I see is that most don't understand the resurrection if one understands this they would see that the rapture is false.

Nobody is rising out of the grave ,this body is nothing but dust which is where it shall return .Did not Paul tell us that we have two bodies?
We will be changed at the moment of death or when Christ returns, whichever one happens first

 

[n2thelight]

Do you think Jesus will not finish wrapping up what He started with His people, Israel, after the fulness of the Gentiles, or just kill every one? Now killing everyone sounds like a cult. Jim Jones for instance, certainly not a great

ALL who believe in Christ are Israel those who don't are not,that simple

 

[The Light]

Did you know brethren, that the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory wrongly teaches that Jews left-behind that miss the rapture, but come to believe on Jesus, are "tribulation saints"? Of course that phrase is nowhere written in God's Word; the Pre-trib Rapture school just made that phrase up.

They also falsely apply... that "tribulation saints" idea to Christ's very elect that Jesus was pointing to in His Olivet discourse He gave while upon the Mount of Olives! Why?

The reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors came up with that idea, is because of how God's Word shows Christ's saints GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION!

Who doesn't see a problem with that theory? I do. Why?

The reason you see a problem is because you don't understand the Word of God. Maybe this will help.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Jews can't see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretrib rapture. God WILL KEEP HIS PROMISE.

 

[The Light]

This is why Pre-trib falsely says the rapture of the Church is NOT Jesus' 2nd coming. Yet the rapture of Christ's Church IS... actually a coming of Christ Jesus! No way around that.

Thus they treat the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture in Christ's Olivet discourse as if it is only about Christ's 2nd coming at the very end of this world, with His coming to rapture His Church having already happened prior to the start of the tribulation.

Yet per God's Word, THERE IS ONLY TWO COMINGS OF CHRIST written, not 3, not 4, etc.

Can you not see brethren, the pile of dung the Pre-trib Rapture school keeps piling up, just so they can keep their followers deceived away from the simple Scriptures of God's Word?

A lot of blindness. The Lord clearly tells us that He will come in a hour that we think not after clearly telling us EXACTLY when He will come. The fact that you are only able to see 1 coming is why you don't understand the truth.

 

[The Light]

ALL who believe in Christ are Israel those who don't are not,that simple

Or is it this simple
Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[Davy]

So a cult is accepting that Jesus was the Atonement? What then is the Gospel?

Does your cult teach against Jesus actually returning to earth, and what, sitting around doing nothing?

Jesus did an earthly ministry for 3.5 years, no?

Do you think Jesus will not finish wrapping up what He started with His people, Israel, after the fulness of the Gentiles, or just kill every one? Now killing everyone sounds like a cult. Jim Jones for instance, certainly not a great earthly ministry. Sitting around killing every one, sure.

Do you think that I am farther from the Word of God than you are? You are into the "occult", with your number system, as occult works with numbers and mystical arrangement of facts, no?

Still mystified how stating Jesus is the only Atonement is being "into the occult". And 666, 777, 555 is not.

You are way... out in Left field with God's written Word. You can't recall what you read five minutes ago, and change viewpoints like the wind.

Thus you are NOT to be trusted with God's Word.

 

[n2thelight]

A lot of blindness. The Lord clearly tells us that He will come in a hour that we think not after clearly telling us EXACTLY when He will come. The fact that you are only able to see 1 coming is why you don't understand the truth.

The time that you think not will be when you think He is already here
Do you all really not understand that Satan comes before Christ with all of his fallen angels ?
The whole world will think he is Christ

Did not Paul tell us that Christ will not gather us at anytime before this happens?



That's why this doctrine is so dangerous

 

[The Light]

The time that you think not will be when you think He is already here
Do you all really not understand that Satan comes before Christ with all of his fallen angels ?
The whole world will think he is Christ

Did not Paul tell us that Christ will not gather us at anytime before this happens?



That's why this doctrine is so dangerous

Why would the truth be dangerous? The danger is not being ready with oil in your lamp when he come. That is the danger. Because the Lord will come as lightning. Here is the warning that the Lord gives.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The danger is not being ready when He comes in an hour that you think not. The danger is not understanding that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. The Church will be raptured BEFORE the seals are opened.

 

[n2thelight]

Why would the truth be dangerous? The danger is not being ready with oil in your lamp when he come. That is the danger. Because the Lord will come as lightning. Here is the warning that the Lord gives.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The danger is not being ready when He comes in an hour that you think not. The danger is not understanding that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. The Church will be raptured BEFORE the seals are opened.

Read Mark 13 ,Christ gives us the seals, and 6 of them are opened before His return
Simply put Christ returns at 777
Satan pretending to be Christ happens at 666

 

[The Light]

Read Mark 13 ,Christ gives us the seals, and 6 of them are opened before His return
Simply put Christ returns at 777
Satan pretending to be Christ happens at 666

No. Christ returns immediately after the tribulation. Christ returns at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?