Once Saved, Always Saved?

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mailmandan

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I'm still waiting for you to give me the verse where James taught faith alone is what saves us.
Where does James teach faith alone is NOT a dead faith?
I never said otherwise and you need to understand what James meant by faith "alone" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
 

Eternally Grateful

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Eternal life is a person named Jesus Christ and eternal life is not a super power or a magical wish granted to a person by God.

According to God's Word:
Jesus
(the King of kings and Lord of lords) is the ONLY One who has immortality or eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:15-16

15 “…the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

According to the Bible: We have to abide in the Son in order to have life (i.e. eternal life).

1 John 5:12

He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

According to His Word: The assurance in how we can know that we truly know the Lord (or abide in Him) is if we find that we are keeping His commandments. For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

1 John 2:3-4

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
There are also many warnings in Scripture about how sin can destroy our souls, as well. What do you do with verses like Matthew 5:28-30 and Matthew 6:15? How do you ignore or change them?
eternal life is not some magic potion or religious term that can be thrown around

It means to LIVE FOREVER.

Jesus said whoever believed will NEVER DIE and has ETERNAL LIFE will live forever.

Either jesus meant it. Or he lied.
 
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Titus

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Paul also did not mention the law in Eph 2 or in titus 3.

Paul taught a work saves us in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Faith, John 6:28-29.

Paul was teaching works of merit do not save in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Only earning your salvation could a man boast about his works,

-not by works that we have done...lest man may boast.

Faith is a work.
No one goes around boasting that they saved themselves by believing, repentance etc.
 

Bible Highlighter

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You have not refuted that we are sealed with the HS UNTIL the day of redemption.

As for Ephesians 1:13-14:

Many Christians love to bring up the seal of God as proof of eternal security.

However…

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts of the Apostles 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).


Source:
Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30
 

Michiah-Imla

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Paul ONLY taught salvation by grace through faith alone..

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

Paul taught you must kill the flesh (to be minded as such) as part of the salvation program:

“reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:10-11)

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13)

“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth” (Colossians 3:5)

“they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)

If you reckon your flesh still alive YOU ARE NOT CHRIST’s!
 

Titus

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Sir, you just gave a negative definition of faith alone here,
I never said otherwise and you need to understand what James meant by faith "alone" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works.

Is the kind of faith you are trying to be saved by, barren meaning no obedience no works?
Yes, it is barren without works!
You always contradict yourself.

You have not given me any scripture that James taught faith alone is not dead.

You only insert your made up definition of faith alone and insert it into James' mouth.

Give me the verse where James says faith alone saves us?
 

mailmandan

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Your wrong. Paul ONLY taught salvation by grace through faith alone..

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Its amazing how we can explain the truth to works-salvationists until we are blue in the face and they just cannot comprehend the truth AND THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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YOu have not refuted that we will never die.

It's true that He that believes in Jesus will never die.

John 11:26 is true.

John 11:26
“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

But this would include believing in Jesus when He says the following words, too.

Matthew 7:22-23

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”​

This working iniquity is in context to a person not doing what Jesus says.

Matthew 7:26-27

“And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”​

In other words, to believe in Jesus means to believe in what He tells us to do.
If we are not obeying Jesus, we are not really believing in Him or trusting Him.

In fact, John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
 

Titus

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Its amazing how we can explain the truth to works-salvationists until we are blue in the face and they just cannot comprehend the truth AND THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

I'm glad you left Catholicism. They teach meritorious works salvation.
You need to realize that the commandments of Jesus when obeyed are not meritorious works.

You went from one extreme to the other.
Earning salvation to disobedient salvation
 

Eternally Grateful

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I'm glad you left Catholicism. They teach meritorious works salvation.
You need to realize that the commandments of Jesus when obeyed are not meritorious works.

You went from one extreme to the other.
Earning salvation to disobedient salvation
So you earn salvation by being obedient?
 

mailmandan

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I'm glad you left Catholicism. They teach meritorious works salvation.
You need to realize that the commandments of Jesus when obeyed are not meritorious works.

You went from one extreme to the other.
Earning salvation to disobedient salvation
Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) is not disobedient salvation and seeking salvation by works is not obedience. It's UNBELIEF.
 
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Happy Trails

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Dude your a joke

i already refuted it, but you can’t hear a word anyone says, you think your a know it all

good luck my friend, I am done playing kids games. I will go find someone who can have a decent conversation and has some humility,


Well, this joke decided to do a little 'fact check' on the conversation:


My post #1246
I quoted you as claiming to be “part of the Abrahamic covenant.” You attempted to quote Galatians 3:28. However, it SAYS, “...neither Jew nor Greek,” not “neither Jew or Gentile.”

These were not ethnically Greek people, nor were they Gentiles. They were Jews who had adopted Greek lifestyle. These are the Jews who would speak Greek. They were more secular. They probably ate pork on occasion, and did a little fornicating with the non-Jewish girls. Gentiles are called to come out of the world. Coming out of the world makes them no longer Gentiles. The religious system of Rome IS the world.

You won't even acknowledge the facts displayed in the text, much less rebut them.


Your post #1258
There are no jews in the new covenant

(I think I had already posted Jeremiah 31:31/Hebrews 8:8, “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,” which is the exact opposite of your claim.)

Romans 9:24
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Yeah. He is calling the Gentiles. They are not in the new covenant yet. He's calling them to join.)

Romans 3:29
Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, (Yes. He is their God too. And when they want, they can join his people, Israel, and enjoy all the benefits of the covenant. Until then, they are not in the covenant. If they sign up for the covenant, they need to stop acting like Gentiles.)

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ( It DOES NOT SAY “GENTILE.” This convenient replacing of words is why LOTS of erroneous doctrine is in Christianity. This is AT LEAST, the second time I have pointed out this fact, and just as many times you have pretended it doesn't exist. Seems like I remember post #1274 in this thread where looking up Greek words was critical to the meaning. You don't seem to think that should be an universal standard.)

We have now determined that NONE of these verse say Gentiles are in the new covenant. And THAT is what you claimed they all said. That was the issue at hand.

My post #1403
I, AGAIN, address the fact that none of these verses say anything Gentiles being in a covenant.


Your response is post #1419

I showed you I am not a Jew and gentiles are part of gods plan too

believe what you will. You will only see what you want

(“Part of God's plan” is not the same as “part of the covenant.” People being thrown into the Lake of Fire is also part of God's plan. Being part of God's plan is NOT the same as being in a covenant relationship. You only see what you want.)

You quoted my post #1428

After pointing out the Greek v Gentile issue AGAIN, I cited Romans 2:26-29, which explains that circumcision of the heart is what makes a person inwardly Jewish. To that person, pleasing YHVH is more important than pleasing men. It is what should happen to all the Gentiles in Rome. They should join the Roman Jews and continue doing what the Jews have always done, which is use the Law as the only authority for religious observances. Same thing happened in Jerusalem. - Acts 15:19-21 Then, I added Deuteronomy 10:16, Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 4:4


This is your rebuttal:

Post #1453

Yawn

salvation was in the world before the first Jew

I can't believe you think this is actually topical. You're either bluffing, hoping no one will notice, or you're an idiot. Let's see what evidence remains for that determination.

Here's some:


Your post #1307
So your a car? (It should be, "So, you're a car?")

I thought, “everyone makes a typo on occasion.”

Your post #1468
Dude your a joke (Uhm... you mean, "you're a joke.")

In the SAME POST: “you think your a know it all” (Can you guess the correct answer? Careful! This one's tricky!)

If it happens once, it's a typo.
If it happens twice, you don't know the difference between a possessive pronoun and a contraction.
If it happens THREE times! Option 3 is looking like the favorite.

Understand this: For the duration of this conversation I have not said anything about YOU. The reason YOU made it personal is because YOU are out of defenses. If you COULD use the Bible, history and logic to support your position, you would. But, you can't. So, all you have left is “Dude your a joke.” Be sure and look up all the Greek words in the Bible, except for the ones in Galatians 3:28, of course...
 

Titus

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Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) is not disobedient salvation and seeking salvation by works is not obedience. It's UNBELIEF

How many times are you going to contradict yourself?

First you say there is no obedience/works in salvation.
Now you are teaching there is obedience in salvation.

You dont seek Gods work on the cross to save you?
That's strange doctrine you have bought into Dan.

Faith onlyism is disobedient salvation.

True faith always includes obedience as James proved with Abraham.

Jesus taught true faith is believing in Him and all that He taught,
You do not believe or trust in His gospel, John 5:24; Mark 16:15-16.

Only those who believe in His word and in Him have hope of eternal life.
Jesus said He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.
The latter part of the verse does not change Jesus' including baptism to be saved.

You are teaching the opposite of what Jesus said Sir,
He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved.

You do not believe in Jesus.
 

Eternally Grateful

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@Eternally Grateful has no response for my post (1585).

It’s irrefutable.
You taking passage out of context to support your self righteousness does nt need a response (actually I have responded before)

You think you were saved and became perfect in all things the moment you were saved.

While in christ. You are seen as perfect (the righteousness of Christ in you)

You are far from perfect.

as as I have said before. I have no desire to continue with you. If you think your perfect and an english bible is perfect. There is nothing I can offer you. except my friendship
 

Eternally Grateful

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Well, this joke decided to do a little 'fact check' on the conversation:


My post #1246
I quoted you as claiming to be “part of the Abrahamic covenant.” You attempted to quote Galatians 3:28. However, it SAYS, “...neither Jew nor Greek,” not “neither Jew or Gentile.”

These were not ethnically Greek people, nor were they Gentiles. They were Jews who had adopted Greek lifestyle. These are the Jews who would speak Greek. They were more secular. They probably ate pork on occasion, and did a little fornicating with the non-Jewish girls. Gentiles are called to come out of the world. Coming out of the world makes them no longer Gentiles. The religious system of Rome IS the world.

You won't even acknowledge the facts displayed in the text, much less rebut them.


Your post #1258
There are no jews in the new covenant

(I think I had already posted Jeremiah 31:31/Hebrews 8:8, “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,” which is the exact opposite of your claim.)

Romans 9:24
even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Yeah. He is calling the Gentiles. They are not in the new covenant yet. He's calling them to join.)

Romans 3:29
Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, (Yes. He is their God too. And when they want, they can join his people, Israel, and enjoy all the benefits of the covenant. Until then, they are not in the covenant. If they sign up for the covenant, they need to stop acting like Gentiles.)

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ( It DOES NOT SAY “GENTILE.” This convenient replacing of words is why LOTS of erroneous doctrine is in Christianity. This is AT LEAST, the second time I have pointed out this fact, and just as many times you have pretended it doesn't exist. Seems like I remember post #1274 in this thread where looking up Greek words was critical to the meaning. You don't seem to think that should be an universal standard.)

We have now determined that NONE of these verse say Gentiles are in the new covenant. And THAT is what you claimed they all said. That was the issue at hand.

My post #1403
I, AGAIN, address the fact that none of these verses say anything Gentiles being in a covenant.


Your response is post #1419

I showed you I am not a Jew and gentiles are part of gods plan too

believe what you will. You will only see what you want

(“Part of God's plan” is not the same as “part of the covenant.” People being thrown into the Lake of Fire is also part of God's plan. Being part of God's plan is NOT the same as being in a covenant relationship. You only see what you want.)

You quoted my post #1428

After pointing out the Greek v Gentile issue AGAIN, I cited Romans 2:26-29, which explains that circumcision of the heart is what makes a person inwardly Jewish. To that person, pleasing YHVH is more important than pleasing men. It is what should happen to all the Gentiles in Rome. They should join the Roman Jews and continue doing what the Jews have always done, which is use the Law as the only authority for religious observances. Same thing happened in Jerusalem. - Acts 15:19-21 Then, I added Deuteronomy 10:16, Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 4:4


This is your rebuttal:

Post #1453

Yawn

salvation was in the world before the first Jew

I can't believe you think this is actually topical. You're either bluffing, hoping no one will notice, or you're an idiot. Let's see what evidence remains for that determination.

Here's some:


Your post #1307
So your a car? (It should be, "So, you're a car?")

I thought, “everyone makes a typo on occasion.”

Your post #1468
Dude your a joke (Uhm... you mean, "you're a joke.")

In the SAME POST: “you think your a know it all” (Can you guess the correct answer? Careful! This one's tricky!)

If it happens once, it's a typo.
If it happens twice, you don't know the difference between a possessive pronoun and a contraction.
If it happens THREE times! Option 3 is looking like the favorite.

Understand this: For the duration of this conversation I have not said anything about YOU. The reason YOU made it personal is because YOU are out of defenses. If you COULD use the Bible, history and logic to support your position, you would. But, you can't. So, all you have left is “Dude your a joke.” Be sure and look up all the Greek words in the Bible, except for the ones in Galatians 3:28, of course...
YAWN

Gen 12
Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

There is where my salvation comes from

Noah was not a jew.
Abraham was not a jew
Adam was not a jew

No one before Jacob )(actually through JUDAH) was a jew

so you can post all the scripture you want. it will not prove your right.

You need to show some humility my friend.